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Reflej0

macrumors member
Jan 3, 2020
91
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Today 4GB of Ram is little, it is true that in OS X it takes a little better compared to Windows but it is still little.
The normal is 8GB and 16GB is recommended, not because the 16GB is used in full but sometimes it may slightly exceed 8GB, using 10GB for example.
And with respect to disk space there is also a general consensus that 128GB is insufficient and it is recommended to start from 256GB.
The processor and the GPU also influence but the other factors are more, that is, giving examples:
Having an i3 with an integrated GPU but with 16GB Ram and 512GB SSD offers a better experience (in general use) than having an i7 with a dedicated GPU but with 4GB Ram and 1TB HDD.

The Mac Mini 2014 models are worse than those of 2012 because it carries the processors of the energy-saving range (4260U - 4278U - 4308U - 4578U) while those of 2012 carry the processors of the portable but four-core range (3615QM - 3720QM - 3615QM - 3720QM).
Here is a comparison of the best Mac Mini processor of 2012 against the best Mac Mini processor of 2014

In summary I would recommend at least 8GB Ram (Regardless of whether the ram is DDR3 or DDR4), a solid state disk (SSD) of at least 256GB, regardless of processor or video card (at least for general uses).
[automerge]1579299125[/automerge]
Apple Mac mini (Late 2014)

- 1.4GHz Dual-Core Core i5 processor
- 8GB memory
- 500GB OWC Mercury Electra™ 6G SSD
- Intel HD Graphics 5000 with 1GB
- (4) USB 3.0 type A ports
- (2) Thunderbolt 2 ports
- (1) Gigabit Ethernet port
- (1) HDMI port
- macOS 10.12 Sierra pre-installed
- 90 Day OWC Fulfilled Limited Warranty
** 14-day 100% Money-Back Guarantee

How does that hardware look?

The processor is very poor but at least it has 500GB SSD and 8GB of ram, I think it would have a normal experience.
I leave the listings of Mac Mini 2014 and its processors.
1579299106862.png
 
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Texas_Toast

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If he decided to switch, taking a $559 chance is pretty affordable, plus if he didn't like it in 14 days he wouldn't lose anything other than time.

We'll see what he thinks...
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The Mac Mini 2014 models are worse than those of 2012 because it carries the processors of the energy-saving range (4260U - 4278U - 4308U - 4578U) while those of 2012 carry the processors of the portable but four-core range (3615QM - 3720QM - 3615QM - 3720QM).
Here is a comparison of the best Mac Mini processor of 2012 against the best Mac Mini processor of 2014

In summary I would recommend at least 8GB Ram (Regardless of whether the ram is DDR3 or DDR4), a solid state disk (SSD) of at least 256GB, regardless of processor or video card (at least for general uses).

In the link I posted in Post #24, OWC also has 2012 Mac Mini's for sale. So maybe one of those would be better?

The larger point is that - at least with a mac Mini - it sounds like he could get a decent computer for under $600. Agree?

And what are your thoughts on getting a used imac or MacBook Pro?

Unless you get a 2015 or earlier MBP, that entire topic terrifies me!

Not sure about the iMac, although I have fears that they might not be upgradable, which is why Iw as thinking a Mac Mini might be the safest place to start?
 
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Reflej0

macrumors member
Jan 3, 2020
91
32
In the link I posted in Post #24, OWC also has 2012 Mac Mini's for sale. So maybe one of those would be better?

Reviewing that page, a Mac Mini 2012 with 2.3Ghz Quad Core I7 with 16GB Ram and 256GB or 512GB would be the best choice and would cost $ 619.
Technically you would have a processor with 4 cores and 8 threads (this translates into good multitasking), 16GB Ram (also helps multitasking) and 256 or 512GB SSD (The SSD helps speed in general).
It is a dispositive of 2012 therefore it would have some limitations that may or may not be important as: Video playback in 4K (could only play up to 2K), Thunderbolt 2 (If you use this), and some other small limitations but without doubts would be a good mac.
You will have a small device with good performance, that is, you can use the monitor you want and it will not take up as much as an iMac.
If you don't find it expensive and can't find another device such as a 2015 iMac with a dedicated GPU or a Macbook Pro 2015, then you will make a good choice with the previous Mac Mini 2012.
 
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ApfelKuchen

macrumors 601
Aug 28, 2012
4,334
3,011
Between the coasts
My fear of an iMac is that it is a computer and monitor all crammed in one, and I was worried that if something went wrong on a used one, the repair bill could be expensive. Are my fears warranted?
If you have this particular concern then avoid laptops as well. To a large extent, an iMac is a large laptop.

Unlike a laptop, replacing a keyboard or mouse/trackpad on an iMac (or Mini) is cheap and easy. Considering keyboard/mouse/trackpad failure tends to be more common than a display failure, one might argue to never buy a laptop due to the relatively high cost of keyboard/trackpad repair (and replacing a laptop display is no picnic - again, iMac is arguably a simpler repair).

Others have a "fear" of buying used equipment of any sort, because the repair bill could exceed the price paid for the unit. How many would pay to replace the main logic board of a Mini, even if purchased new? It may be relatively easy to get at (somewhat lower labor cost), but the part is a very high percentage of the cost of the unit.

For what it's worth, opening an iMac is not all that labor-intensive for a trained repair tech - perhaps 5-10 minutes to get the thing open. Compared to the rest of the time spent on diagnosing and repairing the unit, and compared to parts costs that are similar regardless of the box in which they're packaged... not a big deal. Generally laptops are more challenging and labor intensive.

From my perspective, buying the right form factor for the users needs takes priority. If you need the portability of a laptop, then cost of repairs is part of the trade-off that comes with portability. If the simplicity/footprint of an iMac is appealing for ease of deployment and ongoing neatness (one box on the desk instead of two, one less power cable, no display cable)... then again, cost of repair becomes a secondary consideration.
 
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Texas_Toast

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@ApfelKuchen,

Very enlightening post!

Good points about my fears about repairs compared to laptops.

So why do people choose an iMac over a Mac Mini?

I guess you are saying it is the "simplicity" of things?

When it comes to buying a used computer, would there be an advantage one way or the other between buying a Mac Mini versus an iMac?

And are there certain iMacs that are better than others? (@Reflej0 was pretty set on choosing a *2012* Mac Mini, for instance.)

Of course, my co-workers preferences will drive a lot of this, but just trying to do as much homework in advance as possible!

Thanks!
 

jh.dks

macrumors newbie
Jan 18, 2020
16
2
I think a MacBook Air is more than enough for what you describe, BUT, if he's coming from Windows and might be kind of skeptical, he'll hate it the second he needs a little more power or when the butterfly keyboard starts to become unreliable... Which is not a great way to start or form an opinion about Apple products, because the Air is for a very (broad) specific kind of users and the butterfly keyboard is just known to be unreliable, so you're pretty much warned before you buy it.

But I also think it's important to know if this person even wants to make the switch. A new OS to get used to, some Windows folks like to refer to macOS as 'inferior', ... he should go with what's comfortable and works for him.
If he wants to jump into the Apple ecosystem, and buys used, like another user said, an HDD is such a no-go. Those things have you horrible experiences back in 2013, and they came stock with MacBook Pro's for way too long. I'd spend a little more, maybe to get into Retina MacBook Pro territory (very good and snappy machines). But honestly you only really get a good taste of what the ecosystem feels like if you combine it with some iDevices, iCloud Drive, Handoff, Continuity, ... ;) that's what still makes it no. 1 for me today!
Good luck!!
 

Texas_Toast

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I think a MacBook Air is more than enough for what you describe, BUT, if he's coming from Windows and might be kind of skeptical, he'll hate it the second he needs a little more power or when the butterfly keyboard starts to become unreliable... Which is not a great way to start or form an opinion about Apple products, because the Air is for a very (broad) specific kind of users and the butterfly keyboard is just known to be unreliable, so you're pretty much warned before you buy it.

Thanks for the reminder and warning!


But I also think it's important to know if this person even wants to make the switch.

I casually said, "You should consider getting a Mac." and he responded, "Yeah, I might consider that!"

Which why I am here. (Horse before cart.)


A new OS to get used to, some Windows folks like to refer to macOS as 'inferior', ... he should go with what's comfortable and works for him.

New OS's are a jolt, but I find it hard to believe aonyone could prefer Windows 10 over any macOS.

Back in the early 2000s (e.g. Windows XP) wasn't too bad from a usability standpoint - just too unreliable.

But ever since Microsoft changed their OS paradigm, I personally find using WIndows painful - although my corporate Windows laptop isn't too bad to use at all - but that isn't what most home users experience!


If he wants to jump into the Apple ecosystem, and buys used, like another user said, an HDD is such a no-go. Those things have you horrible experiences back in 2013, and they came stock with MacBook Pro's for way too long.

Yeah.


I'd spend a little more, maybe to get into Retina MacBook Pro territory (very good and snappy machines).

If he wants to spend the money, I'd recommend one - that is all I own/use now.


But honestly you only really get a good taste of what the ecosystem feels like if you combine it with some iDevices, iCloud Drive, Handoff, Continuity, ... ;) that's what still makes it no. 1 for me today!
Good luck!!

Maybe, but that is down the road.

Thanks.
 

retta283

Suspended
Jun 8, 2018
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3,480
Do you know if he's a desktop or laptop guy? I think a used iMac presents good value relative to pre-2018 Minis, but the 2018 Mini is probably a better performer than an iMac with a 5400rpm drive. If you can find a good deal on that, and he already has a display and everything set up, go for the 2018 Mini.

I would not recommend any laptops. 16" MBP is a good option but no way is it within this market. If he gets a MB with butterfly failure, that will do little to bring him into Apple. The 2017 MBA might be a decent option, but I'm not sure if that would be enough for him.
 

Reflej0

macrumors member
Jan 3, 2020
91
32
And are there certain iMacs that are better than others? (@Reflej0 was pretty set on choosing a *2012* Mac Mini, for instance.)
Thanks!

The Mac Mini 2012 is a good option as long as you cannot afford to buy a Mac Mini 2018, and you are looking for the Mac Mini format.
Macbook, iMac, Mac mini depends on your specific need.
A Macbook air / pro can be used even if the device does not change places but several things:
  • Within the same price range you will always get better power on a desktop computer, for example for 1000 USD you will get more power on a Mac Mini or iMac than on a Macbook.
  • Technically a desktop computer has more life than a portable computer, since Macbooks have battery cycles and Mac Mini and iMac do not, a battery is considered "good" up to 1000 charge cycles (in the latest models), each charging cycle offers us 10 hours, in a use of 10 hours per day, a Macbook would offer us 3 years of "good battery", while an iMac or Mac Mini in theory would last forever (although the processor is losing thermal paste).
My recommendations for a good experience are, as I said before, at least 8GB of Ram and a 256GB SSD, those features on any computer whether iMac, Mac Mini, Macbook.
Even if the processor is a m3, i3 or the GPU is integrated intel for the usual tasks it will not have problems.
 
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ApfelKuchen

macrumors 601
Aug 28, 2012
4,334
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Between the coasts
@ApfelKuchen,

Very enlightening post!

Good points about my fears about repairs compared to laptops.

So why do people choose an iMac over a Mac Mini?

I guess you are saying it is the "simplicity" of things?

When it comes to buying a used computer, would there be an advantage one way or the other between buying a Mac Mini versus an iMac?

And are there certain iMacs that are better than others? (@Reflej0 was pretty set on choosing a *2012* Mac Mini, for instance.)

Of course, my co-workers preferences will drive a lot of this, but just trying to do as much homework in advance as possible!

Thanks!
Yes, simplicity is a big part of the iMac's appeal vs. Mini.

Connecting a small box to a display may seem like a small thing to a fan of traditional computers. From a fan's perspective, while Mini may not have card slots, at least it preserves one aspect of the traditional computer configuration - the freedom to replace the CPU without replacing the display (or vice versa). They rightfully point to the environmental and financial benefits of being able to use the same display long after they have to update the CPU.

However, that freedom and environmental benefit does come with costs. Desktop clutter is probably the biggest in most folks minds. Clutter can be a huge consideration for some (maybe even "many") people - cramped apartments, tiny office cubicles, etc.

Next (or maybe even first)... Although it takes seconds to connect a CPU to a display, there are plenty of people who get no joy whatsoever from the process of setting up new purchases. The easier the better, even when "easier" is little different than "harder." "Just plug it into the wall and press the power button" has enormous appeal, even when all the macOS setup/configuration steps that follow are the same whether you're configuring a Mac Pro, Mini, MacBook Air, or iMac.

And there's a certain amount of "domestic peace" involved - one spouse who loves the equipment, the other who hates it and wants to see as little of it as possible. (This is why Man Caves exist.)

Home audio/video is the classic example, and probably the example that put Steve Jobs firmly in the all-in-one camp. In the home entertainment market all-in-ones have always sold far more units than components. Individual components have only been popular among audiophiles - the joy of creating the "best possible" system by mixing and matching products from a variety of manufacturers, the challenge of connecting it all together, the delightful complexity that comes with the knobs and buttons festooning a half-dozen boxes...

But audio/videophiles are vastly outnumbered by people who just want to keep it simple - open the box and start listening/watching in a matter of moments. Boom boxes, the home entertainment centers of the 1960s, Smart TVs, one-shipping-carton bundles containing five or more speakers and an A/V receiver, etc. The manufacturer would rather sell every single part of that entertainment system, and the vast majority of consumers are happy to give them that business. One buying decision, not many.

Among audiophiles, "all-in-one" is generally said with a condescending sneer. The cheapest, lowest-quality gear available tends to be all-in-one. But there's nothing to stop a "quality" manufacturer from producing high quality all-in-ones, and over the course of history, many of the most respected names in home entertainment gear have done just that. Apple is just following in that tradition.

iMac is a prime example of a high-end all-in-one. There is no fundamental performance difference between an iMac and a Mini, and actually, high-performance iMac configurations are easier to come by than high-performance Minis. The displays in iMacs tend to be at the high end of quality as well. Conspiracy theorists may say that Apple is forcing consumers to buy iMac by limiting Mini, but my feeling is that Apple is selling exactly what most people really want. The notion that a display must be separate from the CPU is long dead among most consumers. Laptops are 2/3 of all computers sold. iPhone, iPad, Apple Watch... all-in-ones all.

"Separates" are a niche market in computing, just as they are in home entertainment. Most people who buy TVs use the built-in speakers. They don't buy A/V receivers, they plug their cable boxes and BluRay players into the back of the TV. It's not because the stores wouldn't like to sell them separate A/V receivers and surround sound speaker systems... in most cases, the only add-on they manage to sell is an ultra-simple sound bar (and an extended warranty). Simply said, "Simple sells."

Speaking as someone who did corporate IT back in the 90s... If flat screen all-in-ones had been available, 90% of the systems I'd have specified and deployed would have been AiOs. Workers' desks were cluttered enough to begin with. Finding space for a bulky CRT and bulky card-slotted CPU was a real challenge - and positioning those components plus keyboard and mouse into something approaching an ergonomic configuration (without replacing the existing office furniture) nearly impossible. Most assistants' desks (the term "secretary" having only recently been replaced) were L-shaped, with attached typewriter platforms. Those typing "returns" were at the correct height for ergonomic typewriter use, but were too shallow to accommodate a CRT and keyboard (an iMac would have fit perfectly). That meant the CRT and keyboard went on the main desk - huge added clutter, big ergonomic issues. And 90% of those systems never needed upgrade/modification. They were word-processing. Spreadsheets weren't yet a thing outside of the comptroller's office. No, for those users give me a flat screen iMac (or the Dell equivalent) any day of the week.

Are there certain iMacs that are better than others? Of course. iMac has been sold in much larger numbers, in more varied configurations. "Better" may be a matter of whether they have spinning HDDs (least attractive) vs. Fusion Drives (better performance at a low price, but still with spinning HDDs to fail), or SSDs. You can get 4K or 5K displays vs. standard definition, better/poorer CPUs and GPUs, 21" vs. 27" displays...

But I'm not going to get into "Which model year was better?" That kind of discussion is best reserved for wine lovers debating the best vintage of Chateau Lafitte. Some will similarly debate a particular generation of Intel CPU, but those fine points tend to be tertiary concerns for most uses and users. For computing equipment, older is nearly always worse, as older hardware may not support the current OS or specific features of that OS. Buy something that's likely to be good for two or three years, rather than something approaching end of useful life.

Are there advantages to a Mini? Cost and ease of DIY HDD replacement. Since HDD replacement isn't likely to happen more than once, if you/your friend have no intention of doing a DIY repair, then cost is the only concern - the economy of keeping the display he has and buying only the CPU.
 
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Texas_Toast

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Do you know if he's a desktop or laptop guy?

Not yet. Indeed, an important question.


I think a used iMac presents good value relative to pre-2018 Minis, but the 2018 Mini is probably a better performer than an iMac with a 5400rpm drive. If you can find a good deal on that, and he already has a display and everything set up, go for the 2018 Mini.

Okay.


I would not recommend any laptops. 16" MBP is a good option but no way is it within this market. If he gets a MB with butterfly failure, that will do little to bring him into Apple. The 2017 MBA might be a decent option, but I'm not sure if that would be enough for him.

Yeah, even I am worried if my current Retinas are the last Apple laptops I will own.

There are a few Retina out there w/o butterfly keyboards, but I wouldn't want to assume any liability in recommending any Apple laptop to him.
[automerge]1579483914[/automerge]
@ApfelKuchen,

So how you you really feel? :)


Thanks for the history and perspective!!
 
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