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honestone33

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I saw this earlier today on yahoo.com:


Kind of scary! In actuality, my wife and I used to visit Lake Tahoe a lot (absolutely gorgeous country!), and in fact have been to that exact Safeway store a few times (not for gas, though). Both of our cars need Premium Unleaded, so sure glad we did not stop there for gas recently!

But in all seriousness, how does one know at the pump the exact kind of gas one is getting?
 
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diesel fuel is bad but otherwise any mix up with octane is dont care.

if you find a gas pump with a hose for each grade all good but likely you will get a measure of what the customer purchased before. If your not filling a whole tank up this small difference may matter.

an engine's need for "Premium Unleaded" depends on the operating environment like mid summer needs may be different than winter.

experiment;
start with the standard low grade and if the engine runs as expected, no knocking, someone lied and you can buy what ever grade you want.
 
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Airplane people have this exact problem where aviation gasoline and jet fuel (very similar to diesel) get mixed. Mix-ups do occur and they are regularly fatal.

The proper procedure there is to dispense a small amount in a jar and check for color, water and dirt contamination, and do a sniff test before refueling. Historically, they would pour the jar out on the ground, but due to environmental reasons (aviation gasoline is usually leaded), they have special jars that allow return into the aircraft.
 
Funny, I was just today going through fuel gyrations, went from Ethanol (tested at around ~E70) back to 93, special tune that allows for running either or a mix :)
 
Airplane people have this exact problem where aviation gasoline and jet fuel (very similar to diesel) get mixed. Mix-ups do occur and they are regularly fatal.

The proper procedure there is to dispense a small amount in a jar and check for color, water and dirt contamination, and do a sniff test before refueling. Historically, they would pour the jar out on the ground, but due to environmental reasons (aviation gasoline is usually leaded), they have special jars that allow return into the aircraft.
Kind of difficult to do that at a gas station.
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if you find a gas pump with a hose for each grade all good but likely you will get a measure of what the customer purchased before. If your not filling a whole tank up this small difference may matter.

But all was not good in this particular case. A lot of drivers down there are having to deal with the needed repairs to their vehicles.

an engine's need for "Premium Unleaded" depends on the operating environment like mid summer needs may be different than winter.

experiment;
start with the standard low grade and if the engine runs as expected, no knocking, someone lied and you can buy what ever grade you want.

The manual for my wife's Mercedes specifically states that Premium Unleaded is required. We are not going to mess with that. Plus the cost difference is not that great, especially since she does not put many miles on the car.
 
Kind of difficult to do that at a gas station.

How are you going to determine the type or quality of fuel if you can't get a sample of it? I don't see how it's a problem, people fill portable gas containers.

It's actually a bit easier if you drive a diesel because they don't need vapor control, so you can put the nozzle so that you can observe the fuel going in. Most motorcycles are like this too.
 
How are you going to determine the type or quality of fuel if you can't get a sample of it? I don't see how it's a problem, people fill portable gas containers.

It's actually a bit easier if you drive a diesel because they don't need vapor control, so you can put the nozzle so that you can observe the fuel going in. Most motorcycles are like this too.
But it was a problem in Lake Tahoe, although it was due to contamination.
 
But it was a problem in Lake Tahoe!

Because people didn't think it was a risk worth mitigating. If you don't feel like inspecting fuel for your car, then you have to shoulder the risk of a fuel mixup, which may be acceptable to you, or it may not.

If they had some other easy way, people wouldn't die in plane crashes caused by exactly this:
 
diesel fuel is bad but otherwise any mix up with octane is dont care.

if you find a gas pump with a hose for each grade all good but likely you will get a measure of what the customer purchased before. If your not filling a whole tank up this small difference may matter.

an engine's need for "Premium Unleaded" depends on the operating environment like mid summer needs may be different than winter.

experiment;
start with the standard low grade and if the engine runs as expected, no knocking, someone lied and you can buy what ever grade you want.

Of course, using diesel fuel in place of gasoline is bad, as is contamination of any fuel. You're technically correct about octane rating, but I suspect most drivers wouldn't be able to tell if their car's engine wasn't operating normally unless the effect was obvious, which it may not be.

I think it's generally safest to follow the manufacturer's instructions, since use of non-recommended fuel could be grounds for refusing warranty service. My current and previous vehicles were both designed to run on fuel with various octane ratings, so I use regular to save money.
 
Yeah, the only concern here is the diesel. Otherwise, if you put premium in a Malibu, it doesn't really make a difference. If you put regular in a BMW, it just affects performance some.
 
Diesel is an oil and has a very different smell from petrol (or what you call gasoline).
I am sure if someone else has used the pump just putting it near your face you'd be able to smell the difference very easily.
But even a few drops and you'll be able to tell the difference by the smell, the oily nature of it (it's really a lot more oily) and the fact you won't see the evaporation- that sort of haze you get on gasoline.

Most modern petrol engines adjust their timing to the grade of gasoline you put in. The lower octane rating is cheaper but has worse performance and mileage so it works out about the same.
On older (and I mean like at least 20 year old cars or more) or if they have been specifically set up to use ethanol then this won't be true but you would probably know that.
Even in the 60s most Japanese engines would adjust their timing automatically.

Sorry, just read some of the messages above again. Is it possible you can get diesel and gasoline from the same hose? Over here it isn't possible as the nozzles are different sizes and the diesel nozzle won't fit in the tank of a petrol car. I presumed the problem was they had wrongly filled the tanks (can't get into the link).
 
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Sorry, just read some of the messages above again. Is it possible you can get diesel and gasoline from the same hose? Over here it isn't possible as the nozzles are different sizes and the diesel nozzle won't fit in the tank of a petrol car. I presumed the problem was they had wrongly filled the tanks (can't get into the link).

...even the link is a bit vague about what actually happened but, yeah, it was a "tanker error" and it sounds like the pumps were actually dispensing some undefined cocktail of regular/premium or diesel.

Oops. Not a lot you can do about that, although, as you said, the Mk #1 nostril can easily distinguish gasoline from diesel.

...quick google shows that the main problem in the UK is putting petrol into diesel engines, because, as you say, diesel nozzles don't fit into petrol fillers so you have to be quite dedicated to do it the other way around.

Worst I've done is filled up with premium instead of regular unleaded, which had no discernable consequences. In my defence, that wouldn't have happened if they had been labeled "unleaded" and "premium" rather than some gibberish like "technobabble 3000 advance" and "Superoctanium pro 9000 plus" hidden between all the adverts and visual clutter (woe betide that the few square cm of free space on a filler nozzle be revered for the fuel type when there are products to be advertised...)
 
I saw this earlier today on yahoo.com:


Kind of scary! In actuality, my wife and I used to visit Lake Tahoe a lot (absolutely gorgeous country!), and in fact have been to that exact Safeway store a few times (not for gas, though). Both of our cars need Premium Unleaded, so sure glad we did not stop there for gas recently!

But in all seriousness, how does one know at the pump the exact kind of gas one is getting?
You only know what the label says, maybe afterwards you’d know if there is an issue. My question in the case cited, what fix is required other than flushing the system?
 
You only know what the label says, maybe afterwards you’d know if there is an issue. My question in the case cited, what fix is required other than flushing the system?
If you look at the video, about half way through, a mechanic says the following:

1. Timing is of the essence.
2. Change the filter (wonder if only one filter is enough).
3. You pay to play. If you are driving a BMW, it's going to cost a lot more than if you are driving a Ford Escort.

Also, who knows what other parts could be damaged?
 
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Any street-driveable car made in the last ~30 years won't be harmed by one tank of regular. Sure, a high compression engine won't run at its best, but engines are smart enough to pull the timing if they sense pinging and will keep the engine from self destructing.

Diesel is a bit more tough, and it would depend on how much is in there. Many commercial fuel additives/preparations are not much more than 8 oz. or so of something similar to diesel fuel with some other stuff added in. Some would argue that even a small amount of diesel could be beneficial to current high compression GDI engines.

If I did find that I'd filled with diesel, I'd drain the tank, change the fuel filter, and forget about it. Yes. there's still going to be some diesel fuel in the system, but at that point it's such a small amount that no vehicle is going to care. BTW, yes, I'd expect whoever is responsible(the refinery/trucking company/gas station) to pay for all of this...
 
Any street-driveable car made in the last ~30 years won't be harmed by one tank of regular. Sure, a high compression engine won't run at its best, but engines are smart enough to pull the timing if they sense pinging and will keep the engine from self destructing.
I'd still not go against what the manual for the car says, regarding the kind of gasoline that is required. A couple used to live next store from us, and they had a Mercedes (more expensive model than the one we own). Well, when they needed gasoline, they would go half and half with the gas they were getting, ie, half regular unleaded, and the other half premium unleaded. Apparently, they were trying to save money (both of them were airline pilots). But the savings, at best, would be minimal.

No way would we ever do something like that!
 
I'd still not go against what the manual for the car says, regarding the kind of gasoline that is required. A couple used to live next store from us, and they had a Mercedes (more expensive model than the one we own). Well, when they needed gasoline, they would go half and half with the gas they were getting, ie, half regular unleaded, and the other half premium unleaded. Apparently, they were trying to save money (both of them were airline pilots). But the savings, at best, would be minimal.

No way would we ever do something like that!

Fundamental question-

Do you know/understand what differentiates low octane gasoline from high octane, and conversely why it would be needed in some engines?
 
Fundamental question-

Do you know/understand what differentiates low octane gasoline from high octane, and conversely why it would be needed in some engines?
Yes, I do. Now, fundamental question for you: would you go against what the owner's manual says regarding the type of gasoline required?

And another one: would you mix grades of gasoline just to save a few bucks, and thus going against what the manual says?
 
Yes, I do. Now, fundamental question for you: would you go against what the owner's manual says regarding the type of gasoline required?

Routinely? No.

For one tank? I wouldn't think twice about 87 in a car that asks for 91, and I've owned plenty of cars that require 91+. That is of course assuming the engine has a knock sensor and is timed through an ECM, which means most anything made in the last ~30 years.

That also includes one old car with a modified engine that I've tuned to run on 92/93, and COULD actually be damaged if I ran it on 87 without retuning(and I made the decision to tune it for 93 because of the performance hit if I adjust the ignition and valve timing to allow for safe 87 running).
 
In my defence, that wouldn't have happened if they had been labeled "unleaded" and "premium" rather than some gibberish like "technobabble 3000 advance" and "Superoctanium pro 9000 plus" hidden between all the adverts and visual clutter (woe betide that the few square cm of free space on a filler nozzle be revered for the fuel type when there are products to be advertised...)

In the US there's regulations that they post the octane rating in big yellow labels, which solves the problem. I suspect it was due to air pollution regulations at some point in the past.

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Over here it isn't possible as the nozzles are different sizes and the diesel nozzle won't fit in the tank of a petrol car.

I think the history was that all the nozzles were interchangeable until the switch to unleaded gas. They shrunk the unleaded filler to prevent people from putting leaded gas into an unleaded car.

Only routinely? One would think it would be always. That is the way I approach it.

Premium fuel isn't available in remote places, particularly in Alaska and Northern Canada. A few tanks of unleaded will not harm the engine. In fact, most modern engines are 10:1+ compression ratio engines, plus some turbocharging, that would, in the past, require mid-grade or premium fuel. There's some optimization of intake/injector geometry, but most of it is basically letting the engine computer and knock sensor push the limits of regular fuel.
 
Premium fuel isn't available in remote places, particularly in Alaska and Northern Canada. A few tanks of unleaded will not harm the engine. In fact, most modern engines are 10:1+ compression ratio engines, plus some turbocharging, that would, in the past, require mid-grade or premium fuel. There's some optimization of intake/injector geometry, but most of it is basically letting the engine computer and knock sensor push the limits of regular fuel.
OK, can understand if it is not available in remote places. But if one lives there just about all the time, why purchase a vehicle which requires premium unleaded gasoline?
 
OK, can understand if it is not available in remote places. But if one lives there just about all the time, why purchase a vehicle which requires premium unleaded gasoline?

Just so we're on the same page, can you explain

1. What factors can lead a certain engine design to specify premium fuel

2. What potential damage CAN come from the use of lower octane fuel

3. What parameters can be changed to optimize an engine for the type of fuel it is being fed
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Only routinely? One would think it would be always. That is the way I approach it.

My point is that I make a habit(again, in newer, electronic vehicles) of running premium fuel if it is specified.

If I can't get premium(station out, doesn't have it, I hit the wrong button-seen all three of those) I don't have a problem putting a tank of regular or mid-grade in to last until I can top off with premium or even until I next need gas.

Aside from that, if you make a habit of not going below 1/2 tank as I do, and have filled up with 93 the last several times, filling up with 87 is going to put you at 90 octane. You PROBABLY won't notice a difference, but even if you it won't damage the car. Drop it down to 1/4 tank, fill with 93 octane, and you're back in the range of 91+ that every car that specs premium says.
 
Just so we're on the same page, can you explain

1. What factors can lead a certain engine design to specify premium fuel

2. What potential damage CAN come from the use of lower octane fuel

3. What parameters can be changed to optimize an engine for the type of fuel it is being fed

#1 - High Compression engines

#2 - Can cause knocking, thus damaging the engine

#3 - Too complicated to figure out. Easier to just go with what the manual states is required.

My point is that I make a habit(again, in newer, electronic vehicles) of running premium fuel if it is specified.

If I can't get premium(station out, doesn't have it, I hit the wrong button-seen all three of those) I don't have a problem putting a tank of regular or mid-grade in to last until I can top off with premium or even until I next need gas.

Where we live, there are PLENTY of gas stations, and thus no worries about all gas stations running out of premium unleaded. Also, for me, it's real simple as to which button to press: the one for Premium Unleaded is always the last one on the right, and thus impossible for me to press the wrong one.

Aside from that, if you make a habit of not going below 1/2 tank as I do, and have filled up with 93 the last several times, filling up with 87 is going to put you at 90 octane. You PROBABLY won't notice a difference, but even if you it won't damage the car. Drop it down to 1/4 tank, fill with 93 octane, and you're back in the range of 91+ that every car that specs premium says.
I also, rarely, let the tank go below 1/2. But I am still not going to mix grades of gasoline. Why would I?
 
#3 - Too complicated to figure out. Easier to just go with what the manual states is required.

Modern engines can detect knocking(detonation).

It can be mitigated by retarding the ignition timing. Ignition timing is usually specified in degrees before top dead center on the ignition stroke, and a vehicle generally has a standard "map" for when that should occur for a given rotational speed and load. With a mechanical distributor, this is done with a centrifugal mechanism that advances the timing as it spins faster, and by monitoring the vacuum signal and advancing under low load conditions. Once this has been set up, it's difficult to change-the timing can be changed globally(i.e. the amount of advance at idle can be changed, and timing under all conditions will be changed the same amount) by physically rotating the distributor, while the characteristics of the advance "curve" requires changing weights and springs inside it.

Modern engines use a crank position sensor, and fire the spark at an appropriate time based on the above factors. In general, the best performance and economy come from having the timing as advanced as possible. With a knock sensor, you can dynamically stay close to this value, and if the ECM senses knocking it can reduce the engine timing to the point where it stops(or at least isn't occurring at a harmful level). In other words, it won't let the engine damage itself.

A slightly more complicated way to do it is by altering the valve timing. Compression ratios are usually quoted as static figures-i.e. the ratio between the cylinder volume at TDC vs. BDC, and this might be something like 8:0:1 for a 1970s emission-choked engine(lower compression, and consequently lower cylinder temperatures, tends to help mitigate NOx formation) or 12:1 for a modern high performance naturally aspirated engine. Thanks to things like valve overlap(times when both the intake and exhaust valve are at least partially open), though, the dynamic compression ratio, or actual ratio when running, is generally in the 5:1 to 6:1 range. Most modern engines can change their valve timing, and increasing the amount of overlap can decrease the dynamic C/R and allow an engine to run safely on lower octane gasoline. This also comes with both a performance and economy penalty, but allows the engine to avoid damage.

If your car says to use premium, then use premium. I won't argue that-both in theory and from my experience in the real world it gives the best gas mileage and performance. A tank of regular mixed in with a diet of premium won't hurt a darn thing, though, in the short term or the long term.
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the one for Premium Unleaded is always the last one on the right, and thus impossible for me to press the wrong one.

Until a station messes with you and puts premium in the center or on the left, which I've seen more times than I care to count(although I'd guess center is the most common "different" placement).

And yes, if you ever travel(I drive about 2.5K miles a month on average) it's easy enough to find yourself at an unfamiliar gas station where they are in different places even if you normally go to the same place around home.
 
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