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Just thinking out loud amongst friends, I think Apple will introduce native FP4 neural accelerators with M7. Currently, M5/M6 ANE executes INT8 natively and the neural accelerators execute FP16 natively. But if Apple introduces native FP4 neural accelerators that will speed up a lot of the popular local LLMs and local AI that are 4-bit quantized. Nvidia’s DGX Spark achieves 1 petaFLOP of FP4 compute vs. 70 teraFLOPs of FP16 on M5 Max. DGX Spark (FP4) also massively outperforms RTX 5090 (FP16) and H100 (FP16). It’s not all due to FP4 compute, there are many other optimizations at work, but I think Apple is eyeing native FP4 on device as the next big jump for on device/edge AI compute with M7 and they don’t want to waste a year dinking around with M6 Pro/Max.
 
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I sure hope the M6 isn't as dangerous as the M5 was when it was tested on the USS Enterprise.
 

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I would not put it beyond Apple to have the MacBook Air regularly trail the MacBook Pro by one SoC generation for up to a full year, possibly even longer, from the moment the ("base") MacBook Pro gets upgraded to the M6.

For one, you can see a precedent for this strategy in iPads, in when the iPad Air is updated vs. the iPad Pro. Also, for the MacBook Air specifically, a similar delay is already being practiced, just not to the same extent. Since the M3 generation, the MacBook Air usually trails the Pro by about 4-5 months already.

Whether Apple increases this delay will be a matter of competitive pressure or rather lack thereof. The less competitive Intel and AMD are in the same general price category, the more likely Apple is going to get away with it.

On the MacBook Air, this would keep the BOM lower (and margins up), especially when the latest SoC generation moves to a new process node. It also helps to further differentiate the MacBook Pro from the Air, which Apple usually loves doing, thereby selling a larger quantity for a premium. For M-series SoCs, differentiating by SoC generation is more economical compared to developing an additional base-chip SoC variant for the Pro, like, e.g., the A19 Pro vs the base A19. For the A19 Pro, a separate die design is more economical because iPhones significantly outsell devices with M-series SoCs in quantity. Being smaller, the A-series SoCs will also have higher yields, restricting binning opportunities.
 
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Probably because Apple realized half way into developing M6 that it wouldn't be able to handle future AI workloads. They cut the cord on M6 Pro/Max variants and went on to M7. But there's no reason to dump all M6 R&D.
Future AI workloads for AI developers or consumers?
 
I would not put it beyond Apple to have the MacBook Air regularly trail the MacBook Pro by one SoC generation for up to a full year, possibly even longer, from the moment the ("base") MacBook Pro gets upgraded to the M6.

For one, you can see a precedent for this strategy in iPads, in when the iPad Air is updated vs. the iPad Pro. Also, for the MacBook Air specifically, a similar delay is already being practiced, just not to the same extent. Since the M3 generation, the MacBook Air usually trails the Pro by about 4-5 months already.

Whether Apple increases this delay will be a matter of competitive pressure or rather lack thereof. The less competitive Intel and AMD are in the same general price category, the more likely Apple is going to get away with it.

On the MacBook Air, this would keep the BOM lower (and margins up), especially when the latest SoC generation moves to a new process node. In that situation, it also enables additional purchasing flexibility for capacity on latest-gen nodes, by delaying some of the volume until a year later, enabling a more gradual ramp-up, more stable yields, and more viability in slipping in a smaller early order (and, more importantly, a smaller later order) on a latest-gen node when competing for capacity with AI hyperscalers. It also helps to further differentiate the MacBook Pro from the Air, which Apple usually loves doing, thereby selling a larger quantity for a premium. For M-series SoCs, differentiating by SoC generation is more economical compared to developing an additional base-chip SoC variant for the Pro, like, e.g., the A19 Pro vs the base A19. For the A19 Pro, a separate die design is more economical because iPhones significantly outsell devices with M-series SoCs in quantity. Being smaller, the A-series SoCs will also have higher yields, restricting binning opportunities.
Interesting. What do you predict for the Mac Neo? Going from A18Pro to 19Pro next year?
 
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I would not put it beyond Apple to have the MacBook Air regularly trail the MacBook Pro by one SoC generation for up to a full year, possibly even longer, from the moment the ("base") MacBook Pro gets upgraded to the M6.

For one, you can see a precedent for this strategy in iPads, in when the iPad Air is updated vs. the iPad Pro. Also, for the MacBook Air specifically, a similar delay is already being practiced, just not to the same extent. Since the M3 generation, the MacBook Air usually trails the Pro by about 4-5 months already.

Whether Apple increases this delay will be a matter of competitive pressure or rather lack thereof. The less competitive Intel and AMD are in the same general price category, the more likely Apple is going to get away with it.

On the MacBook Air, this would keep the BOM lower (and margins up), especially when the latest SoC generation moves to a new process node. In that situation, it also enables additional purchasing flexibility for capacity on latest-gen nodes, by delaying some of the volume until a year later, enabling a more gradual ramp-up, more stable yields, and more viability in slipping in a smaller early order (and, more importantly, a smaller later order) on a latest-gen node when competing for capacity with AI hyperscalers. It also helps to further differentiate the MacBook Pro from the Air, which Apple usually loves doing, thereby selling a larger quantity for a premium. For M-series SoCs, differentiating by SoC generation is more economical compared to developing an additional base-chip SoC variant for the Pro, like, e.g., the A19 Pro vs the base A19. For the A19 Pro, a separate die design is more economical because iPhones significantly outsell devices with M-series SoCs in quantity. Being smaller, the A-series SoCs will also have higher yields, restricting binning opportunities.
That’s not an issue because even an M5 trails behind the M1Pro in many ways. So the M6 isn’t about to usurp the M5Pro any time soon, nor will an M8 usurp an M7Pro.
 
Future AI workloads for AI developers or consumers?

Consumers.

Currently, memory bandwidth is the biggest handicap to running large local AI models on base M-chips.

M6 bandwidth is only 150-170GB/sec. M7 is expected to start at 240GB/sec. This means being able to run 30+ billion parameter range models.

Developers already have access to M5 Pro/Max/Ultra, which is excellent.

M7 basically allows everyday consumers to run 80-90% on-device and only 10% on cloud.
 
Perhaps there are technical reasons, but why not just wait until there is a full family of chips and make that the M6 family instead of splitting it across M6 and M7?
The designers are all specialists. Some work early in the design process, others start later. Some jobs take longer than others. Management’s goal is likely to keep everyone productive. To do that, you need staggered release dates. This is true not just with the chips but with iPhones and Macs too. If you release everything at once on a schedule, you have lots of your workforce idle.

Think about building a house. You can't even hire a painter until the drywall is up, and they can't put the drywall up until the walls are framed and the roof is up. But you can't have the roofer just waiting; they have to move on to the next house even if the paint is not dry. Keeping everyone working is a complex job. In construction, it is all gig work; you are hired just for a few days or weeks, then you have to find more work. But with Apple, they are all employees that get paid; best to keep them busy.
 
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I'll take a MacBook Air with an M6 chip and an OLED display, please!
add on ability to spec nano display and I am there and will pay. Thank you Apple.
I think the days of hard core laptops is coming to an end and will become more like terminals. All my heavier work will be done on an Studio M7 Ultra once it comes out [inc agents running local apps], and I just want an lightweight but high quality screen laptop to run it remote.
 
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Probably because Apple realized half way into developing M6 that it wouldn't be able to handle future AI workloads. They cut the cord on M6 Pro/Max variants and went on to M7. But there's no reason to dump all M6 R&D.
This is why it’s probably best to skip M6 and look into M7 or M8.

It is pretty crazy to think that something as powerful as M6 will be, is still not enough for future AI work loads. Assumedly on device work loads. I guess Apple is predicting future AI workloads will require a lot of compute power
 
Consumers.

Currently, memory bandwidth is the biggest handicap to running large local AI models on base M-chips.

M6 bandwidth is only 150-170GB/sec. M7 is expected to start at 240GB/sec. This means being able to run 30+ billion parameter range models.

Developers already have access to M5 Pro/Max/Ultra, which is excellent.

M7 basically allows everyday consumers to run 80-90% on-device and only 10% on cloud.
If this is the case then I believe Apple’s strategy to have LLM run efficiently on future M silicon is a long game and may signal a requirement for xServe blades.

We once lived in a day when the computing power of a “super computer” was unimaginable to be attained on a consumer product. The envelope gets pushed and one day we will get the same for AI. I would say AI though painful on hardware availability and consumer pricing is short term pain for long term development gain for the consumer.

Think Big, Think Different; Think Apple.
 
Consumers.

Currently, memory bandwidth is the biggest handicap to running large local AI models on base M-chips.

M6 bandwidth is only 150-170GB/sec. M7 is expected to start at 240GB/sec. This means being able to run 30+ billion parameter range models.

Developers already have access to M5 Pro/Max/Ultra, which is excellent.

M7 basically allows everyday consumers to run 80-90% on-device and only 10% on cloud.
After Macs with the M7 Pro and M7 Max are released, it seems that when you download a chatbot app, it won't necessarily be a front end to a cloud-based service, but instead you'll be able to download nearly the whole AI right on your desktop or laptop. A larger/longer download than most, but not outrageous, with downloads for smaller models being 3GB to 6GB, while medium-grade workstation models for more advanced coding or reasoning, or long-document analysis, might be about 10-25GB, and frontier-class models might be about 40-80GB or larger.

It might be that you'll initially download an app that will be a lot smaller, which will be just a model picker that analyzes your Mac's capabilities and lists suggested models and their tradeoffs when run on your hardware. It's likely you'd be able to download more than one model to your Mac, allowing you to swap models depending on your task, including how battery-intensive the task is if you're running it on a Macbook, so that you could use the smaller models, if they'll do the job, when running them on a Macbook that's on battery power, and use the larger models when your Macbook is plugged into power at your desk.
 
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Macs that would have used an M6 Pro or M6 Max chip are going to be stuck with the M5 Pro and M5 Max until the M7 family is ready.
"Stuck with"? The M5 Pro and M5 Max are pretty decent already.

If only a few Apple devices will get the M6, and they won't be Apple's highest-end products, and that won't last long before the M7 is available, it seems that Apple might be treating the M6 as both a fab test and a field test of the 2 nanometer process, in conjunction with Apple's designs, in advance of the larger quantity of its more advanced 2 nanometer designs to follow.
 
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That’s not an issue because even an M5 trails behind the M1Pro in many ways. So the M6 isn’t about to usurp the M5Pro any time soon, nor will an M8 usurp an M7Pro.
Not sure what "issue" you are referring to. This is about the base-level M-series chips (non-pro, non-max, non-Ultra). Currently, in this specific scenario, the advantage of the (base-level) MacBook Pro vs. the MacBook Air, as far as the SoC is regarded, is running in a more permissive thermal/power envelope, and possibly some unadvertised binning for higher boost clocks that this enables. In the new scenario, these advantages of the MacBook Pro vs. the MacBook Air would increase to regularly being one chip gen ahead, for a longer time (much like the current practice of updating the iPad Pro vs. the iPad Air). This is rather an opportunity of fast-walking new gens and increasing (base-level) Pro differentiation. We just saw what an early release of the M6 did to the pricing on the Mac mini where there still is no lower-priced alternative. Apple would mitigate a similarly large increase for the Air by staying on the M5 for a bit longer.

Ultimately, it is competition that will decide. Now that Zen 6 and Nova Lake are around the corner, promising unusually large speed-ups, Apple may opt for a stronger base-level line-up.
 
Interesting. What do you predict for the Mac Neo? Going from A18Pro to 19Pro next year?

The future is hard to predict, but the A19 Pro is one reasonable option. If I had to choose one, I'd say yes.

Should the total sales of the MacBook Neo reach up to more than just a few million units (which it currently seems they might), semi-custom silicon becomes another reasonable option. But I see Apple preferring an existing SoC, as it would tie up less engineers from working on future tech. Whatever RAM issue Apple needs to solve on the MacBook Neo, they will probably hit with the iPhones first.

One decisive factor are Apple's AI requirements in the near future. 12 GB RAM may become inevitable for full Siri support, but Apple may also get away with 8 or 9 GB for a bit longer on the lower-end devices. What happens on the base-level and SE iPhones will be a first indication of where Apple may want to go with this in the near future. As is, possibly, what happens next with the base-level iPad. The MacBook Neo is essentially the base iPad in a laptop form factor and enabled to run MacOS, although its initial release pushed it a bit ahead on the update cycle. Should Apple, e.g., somewhat unexpectedly, update the base iPad directly to an SoC featuring 9 GB or 12 GB RAM, this would all but force it on the next update to the MacBook Neo, too.
 
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Should the total sales of the MacBook Neo reach up to more than just a few million units (which it currently seems they might), semi-custom silicon becomes another reasonable option.

Pretty OT, but the whole economics of the Neo is based on using binned chips that would have landed in the trash otherwise.

So Neo will use a binned A19pro if and when there are enough of them accumulated to sustain a production run.
 
Pretty OT, but the whole economics of the Neo is based on using binned chips that would have landed in the trash otherwise.

So Neo will use a binned A19pro if and when there are enough of them accumulated to sustain a production run.

Consider that the binned variant of the A19 Pro with 5 GPU cores is already used in the iPhone Air. While not exactly considered a sales hit relative to other iPhone models, it is still selling in the millions.

Such binned chips could also go into a lot of other places, including a new base iPad, a new Apple TV, the Studio Display (XDR) or a theoretical Mac Neo. Heck, they could even get rebranded and end up in the base iPhone or SE a year later. E.g., the A16 was first debuted in the iPhone Pro, then reused the following year in the base iPhone. Even with the Pro moniker now applied to A-series SoCs, Apple retains full flexibility to rebrand designs over time. Apple did this already, e.g. with their S-Series SoCs, which are regularly rebranded and rereleased only with peripheral changes on the SiP level. Whether the Pro and non-Pro even start out as separate designs at all is simply an implementation detail. Any year, Apple could as well go back to starting them both off as bins of the same design. IIRC, this was the case on the A15 Bionic, which was a bin of the same chip with 4 vs. 5 GPU cores working/enabled. Such bins are not necessarily considered very-low-end products. So nothing but its own volition is stopping Apple from using binned SoCs anywhere it wants, at any time, under any name that it wants and can legally use, as long as they can either get it manufactured economically or pull it from storage.

But yes, as I said the A19 Pro, possibly in a binned variant, is a reasonable option, due to a) existing, and b) featuring the RAM to enable support for the full Siri AI feature set. This is assuming that this is what Apple wants to do on an entry-level device... They'll probably make a choice consistent with where there will be going with the SE and base iPad next.
 
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No, it is NOT possible. No MacBook will ever get an Ultra chip.
There have been PC laptop with:
- desktop GPUs,
- dual power supplies,
- mechanical keyboards,
- 21" screens.

Apple absolutely could put an M* Ultra in a >= 18" MacBook Pro if they wanted to.

Apple has to fill in more of my wishcast lines, now that they made my requested Neo:

1788014715532.png
 
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Pretty OT, but the whole economics of the Neo is based on using binned chips that would have landed in the trash otherwise.

So Neo will use a binned A19pro if and when there are enough of them accumulated to sustain a production run.
As far as I'm aware, we have no evidence of how many of the MacBook Neo's SoCs were binned from the iPhone production line. There's no reason to believe it was anywhere near 100%.

Even if the unused binned iPhone SoC were only 25% of the initial MacBook Neo run (before they ran out), it would still have been upside for Apple.
 
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It is hard to tell how short lived the M6 is. If they're making them, they might have a plan using them for a while.

It seems like the M5 is the more likely model to get skipped on some of the devices:

1788016173850.png
 
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