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Which ssd's to raid1 fusion drive for cMP?

T

toke lahti

macrumors 68040
Original poster
Apr 23, 2007
3,293
509
Helsinki, Finland
Hopefully the last thread in my "building a lasting fusion drive for cMP" -saga.

I decided not to use hardware raid1 sled from Icy Dock for ssd's since the only way to get info about raid's health is the leds next to sata connector which are impossible to see when sled is in 3.5" slot.

Instead I decided to buy this and put ssd's to this http://www.icydock.com/goods.php?id=167 and put that under ODD and use software raid. Remains to be seen how much cpu tax will that make...

Would it be good idea to buy different ssd's to raid, so they probably will have different lifespan and won't die at the same time?
Which would be the nice couple in 120GB range?
 
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This post is confusing. You mention a fusion drive, which is typically a bonding of fast SSD and large HDD combined with operating system logic that attempts to put least used files on the HDD and most used files on SSD, automatically.

But your text mentions two SSDs in RAID 1, which is a mirror. That is very different.
 
ActionableMango said:
This post is confusing. You mention a fusion drive, which is typically a bonding of fast SSD and large HDD combined with operating system logic that attempts to put least used files on the HDD and most used files on SSD, automatically.

But your text mentions two SSDs in RAID 1, which is a mirror. That is very different.
Click to expand...

Very simple: I had usual fusion drive: one ssd and one hdd. Ssd died, and therefore the whole fusion drive died. Next, I'm gonna raid two ssd's and two hdd's. And then fusion those two raid1's.
 
In my experience with complicated setups like that, I've found they are a recipe for trouble and introduce higher risk than they prevent.

But to answer your original question, yes it is typically recommended to use different drives. The idea is that if you use identical drives, you are risking many potential sources of failure that can happen to both identically (a bad batch at the factory, something triggering a bug in the drive firmware, etc.) I would pick two highly recommended but different brand and model SSDs.

I hope you understand that a mirror is not a replacement for a backup. Anything bad that happens on one can/will happen on the mirror too (accidents, malware, corruption).
 
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ActionableMango said:
In my experience with complicated setups like that, I've found they are a recipe for trouble and introduce higher risk than they prevent.

But to answer your original question, yes it is typically recommended to use different drives. The idea is that if you use identical drives, you are risking many potential sources of failure that can happen to both identically (a bad batch at the factory, something triggering a bug in the drive firmware, etc.) I would pick two highly recommended but different brand and model SSDs.

I hope you understand that a mirror is not a replacement for a backup. Anything bad that happens on one can/will happen on the mirror too (accidents, malware, corruption).
Click to expand...

Reason for raided fusion is to keep using the computer while different postal services lose my defective ssd and fail to deliver the replacement and when I order new ones, I get the wrong package. All these three has happened in this case.

Simplicity is good but making fusion out of two raid1 isn't rocket science, same thing than industry standards raid 0+1 & 1+0.

Then again, I'm not sure if you can make a fusion drive out of logical disks! Can anybody confirm? Anyway, I can also make two fusion drives and raid them, can I?

I do use time machine, but now I don't have a spare drive to install temporary system disk and the mistake I've made is, I have cloned the system disk only before I upgrade the os. So I don't have a clone of my recent system. That's something I need to change. I'm also a bit scared what did I excluded from time machine to make more room for it. I do have bigger drive waiting on the self now...
 
toke lahti said:
Reason for raided fusion is to keep using the computer while different postal services lose my defective ssd and fail to deliver the replacement and when I order new ones, I get the wrong package. All these three has happened in this case.

Simplicity is good but making fusion out of two raid1 isn't rocket science, same thing than industry standards raid 0+1 & 1+0.

Then again, I'm not sure if you can make a fusion drive out of logical disks! Can anybody confirm? Anyway, I can also make two fusion drives and raid them, can I?

I do use time machine, but now I don't have a spare drive to install temporary system disk and the mistake I've made is, I have cloned the system disk only before I upgrade the os. So I don't have a clone of my recent system. That's something I need to change. I'm also a bit scared what did I excluded from time machine to make more room for it. I do have bigger drive waiting on the self now...
Click to expand...

Sounds like you want to create two Fusion drives and AppleRAID them..?

You can AppleRAID individual CoreStorage volumes together, but as for Fusion drives..

Technically whether you're AppleRAIDing a logical volume of a physical disk, or a logical volume made of multiple disks, it is kinda the same.. but not sure.
 
I suspect that you're going to be the first around here to try it. I'll be curious to know how it goes, so it would be great if you could share your experience afterward.
 
The Core Storage utility can use a real physical media, a disk image, or an AppleRAID set as base for the "Physical Volume" (despite its name there is no real restriction in this). The end result of this is usually a single fusion'd logical volume, with HFS+ residing on it, after that (I believe) it is possible for Disk Utility to consider it a regular volume where you can further use it as part of a set of software AppleRAID. The 1st part is only doable running Core Storage in command line mode, which you probably already have some knowledge on anyway.

But without a sort of hardware RAID controller, all it takes is one of the physical drive to malfunction to crook up the whole logical volume family. If it is done for performance then I think it is understandable, for instance 8K video editing or something which simply requires the fastest read write speed available but at the same time demands a lot of drive capacity. I personally prefer to keep multiple volumes and partitions on a workstation, fast arrays for performance, RAID1/5 for redundancy, and then off machine timed backups.
 
toke lahti said:
Or I want to create appleRAID1 with two ssd's and appleRAID1 two hdd's and make fusion drive from these two appleRAID1's.

Does anybody know which one is better or even possible?
Click to expand...

Yeah, you can't do that.

You can AppleRAID CoreStorage logical disks, but you can't convert an AppleRAID volume to CoreStorage.

At work we have a bunch of Mac mini 'servers' in AppleRAID 1 running Mavericks. For a while, I thought there might be a requirement for Sierra to be installed on a CoreStorage volume, so I tested converting our test server AppleRAID to CoreStorage before attempting to upgrade to Sierra, and hit a brick wall.
 
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IMO, making a Apple software RAID 1 array from 2 Fusion drive make more sense than create a fusion drive from two RAID 1 array.

Apple software RAID almost accept any partition, you can even create a RAID array from few USB sticks. Create a RAID 1 from 2 fusion drive should not be a problem at all.

On the other hand, I am not sure if the OS can accept a RAID 1 array as a part of the Fusion drive. Even it does, I will personally avoid it.

For RAID 1, it's very clear that any one of the components broken, the system can still alive as usual. So, even a SSD / HDD failed in this fusion RAID combination. The system will simply rule out the failed fusion drive and keep running by the remaining one.

However, we have no idea how fusion handle a RAID 1 array inside it. It's possible that any one of the SSD /HDD fail may cause the whole fusion drive fail.

Also, a RAID is just a RAID to the OS, it may not lable that as a SSD RAID or HDD RAID. Therefore, the system may have no idea which one is the SSD / HDD part, and how to manage the files within that fusion drive (even if you can create it).
 
Very good question, how does Fusion Drive detect ssd? Or does it even detect it? What if it just keeps statistics how fast any single file loads and how often it is needed and then decides where to keep it?
Anybody knows?

Putting raid1's inside fusion has one advantage: either one of ssd or hdd can fail and system is still working. Fusion drives inside a raid1 can have drive failure only on one of the fusion drives.
 
toke lahti said:
Very good question, how does Fusion Drive detect ssd? Or does it even detect it? What if it just keeps statistics how fast any single file loads and how often it is needed and then decides where to keep it?
Anybody knows?

Putting raid1's inside fusion has one advantage: either one of ssd or hdd can fail and system is still working. Fusion drives inside a raid1 can have drive failure only on one of the fusion drives.
Click to expand...

You might like to read this.
 
Draeconis said:
You might like to read this.
Click to expand...
Right on! (Raid on?)
https://jolly.jinx.de/teclog/2012.11.04.fusion-drive-last-words.html
tells that you can fusion two hdd's and fusion will find which is faster.
This might mean that you can fusion any kind of drives like raids, but does the disk has to be physical, can it also be logical? I think, I'll waste a few hours with this when I get the stuff together.

But if you fusion three disks, it gets confused and uses the "speed order" as the order of disks given in creating the fusion.
Btw, has core storage advanced many versions in last 3 years? How current are these findings?
 
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Update: I installed fusionRAID (two fusiondrives appleraided as mirrors).
Raid1'ing first ssd's & hdd's and then fusioning them didn't work. Osx told this by crashing and booting in the middle of creating fusion drive.

Problem is that my mp keeps now crashing few times a day.
Maybe fusioning is just too buggy. I'm using 10.10.5.
There's a crash logs attached. Can anybody decypher these?

And the final relief: few pictures of the funny cube holding 2 ssd + 1 hdd under the odd.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B8g7jjVzmZSPRFpGenctTHR5ODA
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B8g7jjVzmZSPbUkwem5sWTNranc
(I don't get why inserting images don't work...)
Of course the hardest thins is to connect mp's cables, which are just too short...
Code: 
Process:               system_profiler [867]
Path:                  /usr/sbin/system_profiler
Identifier:            system_profiler
Version:               1027
Code Type:             X86-64 (Native)
Parent Process:        System Information [860]
Responsible:           System Information [860]
User ID:               501

Date/Time:             2017-02-17 17:00:02.873 +0200
OS Version:            Mac OS X 10.10.5 (14F2009)
Report Version:        11
Anonymous UUID:        3DE2B0BC-1E1F-CCD4-E4D3-DE666778DF1C


Time Awake Since Boot: 9200 seconds

Crashed Thread:        1  Dispatch queue: com.apple.root.default-qos

Exception Type:        EXC_CRASH (SIGABRT)
Exception Codes:       0x0000000000000000, 0x0000000000000000

Application Specific Information:
*** Terminating app due to uncaught exception 'NSInvalidArgumentException', reason: 'data parameter is nil'
terminating with uncaught exception of type NSException
abort() called

Application Specific Backtrace 1:
0   CoreFoundation                      0x00007fff9244703c __exceptionPreprocess + 172
1   libobjc.A.dylib                     0x00007fff91e6676e objc_exception_throw + 43
2   CoreFoundation                      0x00007fff92446eed +[NSException raise:format:] + 205
3   Foundation                          0x00007fff84653b43 +[NSPropertyListSerialization propertyListWithData:options:format:error:] + 67
4   SPSupport                           0x000000010610a07a -[SPDocument _setReport:forDataType:] + 97
5   SPSupport                           0x000000010610a43a -[SPDocument _reportFromBundlesForDataType:] + 690
6   SPSupport                           0x000000010610aa47 -[SPDocument reportForDataType:] + 180
7   SPSupport                           0x000000010610ad01 __34-[SPDocument reportsForDataTypes:]_block_invoke + 68
8   libdispatch.dylib                   0x00007fff8c08d004 _dispatch_client_callout2 + 8
9   libdispatch.dylib                   0x00007fff8c090c7b _dispatch_apply_serial + 42
10  libdispatch.dylib                   0x00007fff8c07ce73 _dispatch_client_callout + 8
11  libdispatch.dylib                   0x00007fff8c08bee9 _dispatch_sync_f_invoke + 39
12  libdispatch.dylib                   0x00007fff8c08cc20 dispatch_apply_f + 290
13  SPSupport                           0x000000010610ab55 -[SPDocument reportsForDataTypes:] + 234
14  SPSupport                           0x000000010610dd66 -[SPDocument xmlPropertyListRepresentationForDataTypes:] + 27
15  system_profiler                     0x00000001060fa865 system_profiler + 18533
16  system_profiler                     0x00000001060faa6c system_profiler + 19052
17  libdispatch.dylib                   0x00007fff8c080700 _dispatch_call_block_and_release + 12
18  libdispatch.dylib                   0x00007fff8c07ce73 _dispatch_client_callout + 8
19  libdispatch.dylib                   0x00007fff8c0805cd _dispatch_queue_drain + 1100
20  libdispatch.dylib                   0x00007fff8c080030 _dispatch_queue_invoke + 202
21  libdispatch.dylib                   0x00007fff8c07fbef _dispatch_root_queue_drain + 463
22  libdispatch.dylib                   0x00007fff8c07fa1c _dispatch_worker_thread3 + 91
23  libsystem_pthread.dylib             0x00007fff93350a9d _pthread_wqthread + 729
24  libsystem_pthread.dylib             0x00007fff9334e3dd start_wqthread + 13

Thread 0:
0   libsystem_kernel.dylib            0x00007fff870184a2 __semwait_signal_nocancel + 10
1   libsystem_c.dylib                 0x00007fff90eda02b sleep$NOCANCEL + 42
2   libdispatch.dylib                 0x00007fff8c07f98d _dispatch_queue_cleanup2 + 89
3   libsystem_pthread.dylib           0x00007fff93350799 _pthread_tsd_cleanup + 182
4   libsystem_pthread.dylib           0x00007fff93350460 _pthread_exit + 117
5   libsystem_pthread.dylib           0x00007fff933503ca pthread_exit + 30
6   libdispatch.dylib                 0x00007fff8c07f910 dispatch_main + 43
7   system_profiler                   0x00000001060faa28 0x1060f6000 + 18984
8   libdyld.dylib                     0x00007fff91ccb5c9 start + 1

Thread 1 Crashed:: Dispatch queue: com.apple.root.default-qos
0   libsystem_kernel.dylib            0x00007fff87018286 __pthread_kill + 10
1   libsystem_c.dylib                 0x00007fff90f099a3 abort + 129
2   libc++abi.dylib                   0x00007fff913a0a21 abort_message + 257
3   libc++abi.dylib                   0x00007fff913c89d1 default_terminate_handler() + 267
4   libobjc.A.dylib                   0x00007fff91e6a7d6 _objc_terminate() + 103
5   libc++abi.dylib                   0x00007fff913c60a1 std::__terminate(void (*)()) + 8
6   libc++abi.dylib                   0x00007fff913c6113 std::terminate() + 51
7   libobjc.A.dylib                   0x00007fff91e6a5ff objc_terminate + 9
8   libdispatch.dylib                 0x00007fff8c08d018 _dispatch_client_callout2 + 28
9   libdispatch.dylib                 0x00007fff8c090c7b _dispatch_apply_serial + 42
10  libdispatch.dylib                 0x00007fff8c07ce73 _dispatch_client_callout + 8
11  libdispatch.dylib                 0x00007fff8c08bee9 _dispatch_sync_f_invoke + 39
12  libdispatch.dylib                 0x00007fff8c08cc20 dispatch_apply_f + 290
13  com.apple.framework.SPSupport     0x000000010610ab55 -[SPDocument reportsForDataTypes:] + 234
14  com.apple.framework.SPSupport     0x000000010610dd66 -[SPDocument xmlPropertyListRepresentationForDataTypes:] + 27
15  system_profiler                   0x00000001060fa865 0x1060f6000 + 18533
16  system_profiler                   0x00000001060faa6c 0x1060f6000 + 19052
17  libdispatch.dylib                 0x00007fff8c080700 _dispatch_call_block_and_release + 12
18  libdispatch.dylib                 0x00007fff8c07ce73 _dispatch_client_callout + 8
19  libdispatch.dylib                 0x00007fff8c0805cd _dispatch_queue_drain + 1100
20  libdispatch.dylib                 0x00007fff8c080030 _dispatch_queue_invoke + 202
21  libdispatch.dylib                 0x00007fff8c07fbef _dispatch_root_queue_drain + 463
22  libdispatch.dylib                 0x00007fff8c07fa1c _dispatch_worker_thread3 + 91
23  libsystem_pthread.dylib           0x00007fff93350a9d _pthread_wqthread + 729
24  libsystem_pthread.dylib           0x00007fff9334e3dd start_wqthread + 13

Thread 2:: Dispatch queue: com.apple.root.default-qos.overcommit
0   libsystem_kernel.dylib            0x00007fff87018742 __sigsuspend_nocancel + 10
1   libdispatch.dylib                 0x00007fff8c080925 _dispatch_sig_thread + 45

Thread 3:: Dispatch queue: com.apple.libdispatch-manager
0   libsystem_kernel.dylib            0x00007fff87019232 kevent64 + 10
1   libdispatch.dylib                 0x00007fff8c08126e _dispatch_mgr_thread + 52

Thread 4:
0   libsystem_kernel.dylib            0x00007fff8701894a __workq_kernreturn + 10
1   libsystem_pthread.dylib           0x00007fff9334e3dd start_wqthread + 13

Thread 5:
0   libsystem_kernel.dylib            0x00007fff8701894a __workq_kernreturn + 10
1   libsystem_pthread.dylib           0x00007fff9334e3dd start_wqthread + 13

Thread 6:
0   libsystem_kernel.dylib            0x00007fff8701894a __workq_kernreturn + 10
1   libsystem_pthread.dylib           0x00007fff9334e3dd start_wqthread + 13

Thread 1 crashed with X86 Thread State (64-bit):
  rax: 0x0000000000000000  rbx: 0x0000000000000006  rcx: 0x00000001061fa438  rdx: 0x0000000000000000
  rdi: 0x0000000000000b03  rsi: 0x0000000000000006  rbp: 0x00000001061fa460  rsp: 0x00000001061fa438
   r8: 0x0000000000000000   r9: 0x00007fff90f33d60  r10: 0x000000000c000000  r11: 0x0000000000000206
  r12: 0x00000001061fa5c0  r13: 0x00007fff74d02b40  r14: 0x00000001061fb000  r15: 0x00000001061fa4a0
  rip: 0x00007fff87018286  rfl: 0x0000000000000206  cr2: 0x00007fff75700fd8
 
Logical CPU:     0
Error Code:      0x02000148
Trap Number:     133


Binary Images:
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    0x7fff902b3000 -     0x7fff903e3fff  com.apple.UIFoundation (1.0 - 1) <466BDFA8-0B9F-3AB0-989D-F9779422926A> /System/Library/PrivateFrameworks/UIFoundation.framework/Versions/A/UIFoundation
    0x7fff903e4000 -     0x7fff904d6ff7  libiconv.2.dylib (42) <2A06D02F-8B76-3864-8D96-64EF5B40BC6C> /usr/lib/libiconv.2.dylib
    0x7fff905af000 -     0x7fff90600fff  com.apple.audio.CoreAudio (4.3.0 - 4.3.0) <8E6AE326-9F3E-3182-BD9E-FDF561211E2E> /System/Library/Frameworks/CoreAudio.framework/Versions/A/CoreAudio
    0x7fff9062c000 -     0x7fff9064cff7  com.apple.MultitouchSupport.framework (264.6 - 264.6) <1539F1F6-6334-37F3-9C52-02EFFBF4835D> /System/Library/PrivateFrameworks/MultitouchSupport.framework/Versions/A/MultitouchSupport
    0x7fff90668000 -     0x7fff9066fff7  libcompiler_rt.dylib (35) <BF8FC133-EE10-3DA6-9B90-92039E28678F> /usr/lib/system/libcompiler_rt.dylib
    0x7fff90670000 -     0x7fff90672fff  com.apple.EFILogin (2.0 - 2) <3BA837D8-94F5-3240-9CF7-E40DC2808446> /System/Library/PrivateFrameworks/EFILogin.framework/Versions/A/EFILogin
    0x7fff90689000 -     0x7fff906c9ff7  libGLImage.dylib (11.1.6) <D6DDC014-2C74-34B3-970A-26F211FF76EF> /System/Library/Frameworks/OpenGL.framework/Versions/A/Libraries/libGLImage.dylib
    0x7fff906ca000 -     0x7fff906cefff  libpam.2.dylib (20) <E805398D-9A92-31F8-8005-8DC188BD8B6E> /usr/lib/libpam.2.dylib
    0x7fff906da000 -     0x7fff90753fe7  libcorecrypto.dylib (233.30.1) <5779FFA0-4D9A-3AD4-B7F2-618227621DC8> /usr/lib/system/libcorecrypto.dylib
    0x7fff9088a000 -     0x7fff90893ff3  com.apple.CommonAuth (4.0 - 2.0) <9A484EE6-0003-3AB1-AE4F-AA543BBBF53F> /System/Library/PrivateFrameworks/CommonAuth.framework/Versions/A/CommonAuth
    0x7fff90894000 -     0x7fff90b99ff3  com.apple.HIToolbox (2.1.1 - 758.7) <B1188DED-5E71-3AB4-9E57-67F84C116ECE> /System/Library/Frameworks/Carbon.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/HIToolbox.framework/Versions/A/HIToolbox
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    0x7fff9106c000 -     0x7fff910a4fff  libsystem_network.dylib (412.20.3) <6105C134-6722-3C0A-A4CE-5E1261E2E1CC> /usr/lib/system/libsystem_network.dylib
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    0x7fff910ed000 -     0x7fff910f0fff  com.apple.IOSurface (97.4 - 97.4) <AE11CFBC-4D46-30F3-BEEC-4C8131079391> /System/Library/Frameworks/IOSurface.framework/Versions/A/IOSurface
    0x7fff910f1000 -     0x7fff91162ffb  com.apple.ApplicationServices.ATS (360 - 375.4) <888FE0B1-835C-30B1-80AD-5066CADB0364> /System/Library/Frameworks/ApplicationServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/ATS.framework/Versions/A/ATS
    0x7fff91163000 -     0x7fff91247fff  libcrypto.0.9.8.dylib (52.40.1) <D123FC57-E2EB-3E08-A51B-6C317EA83EB5> /usr/lib/libcrypto.0.9.8.dylib
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    0x7fff91269000 -     0x7fff912e1ff7  com.apple.SystemConfiguration (1.14.4 - 1.14) <3DFFD7F7-BD23-3F4C-A209-C4A0D99F6573> /System/Library/Frameworks/SystemConfiguration.framework/Versions/A/SystemConfiguration
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    0x7fff91335000 -     0x7fff9135eff3  libxslt.1.dylib (13.12) <19B2D915-DC29-3F79-9756-D7EB9051FEFF> /usr/lib/libxslt.1.dylib
    0x7fff913a0000 -     0x7fff913cbfff  libc++abi.dylib (125) <88A22A0F-87C6-3002-BFBA-AC0F2808B8B9> /usr/lib/libc++abi.dylib
    0x7fff913cc000 -     0x7fff913d9ff7  libbz2.1.0.dylib (36) <2DF83FBC-5C08-39E1-94F5-C28653791B5F> /usr/lib/libbz2.1.0.dylib
    0x7fff9142b000 -     0x7fff91432fff  com.apple.NetFS (6.0 - 4.0) <C263C8F8-F284-3101-AC82-A97A81716063> /System/Library/Frameworks/NetFS.framework/Versions/A/NetFS
    0x7fff91433000 -     0x7fff91438fff  com.apple.DiskArbitration (2.6 - 2.6) <0DFF4D9B-2AC3-3B82-B5C5-30F4EFBD2DB9> /System/Library/Frameworks/DiskArbitration.framework/Versions/A/DiskArbitration
    0x7fff91455000 -     0x7fff914c1fff  com.apple.framework.CoreWLAN (5.0 - 500.35.2) <03697149-1CDD-32FF-B564-1C1EF5E9E5C3> /System/Library/Frameworks/CoreWLAN.framework/Versions/A/CoreWLAN
    0x7fff914cd000 -     0x7fff914d5fff  libsystem_platform.dylib (63) <64E34079-D712-3D66-9CE2-418624A5C040> /usr/lib/system/libsystem_platform.dylib
    0x7fff914d6000 -     0x7fff914d6fff  libOpenScriptingUtil.dylib (162.2) <D6A2216D-ADB2-3F24-AD30-F6D00829F545> /usr/lib/libOpenScriptingUtil.dylib
    0x7fff9156c000 -     0x7fff91597ffb  libarchive.2.dylib (30.50.1) <C140763F-5470-3302-B3E0-651B4B5930ED> /usr/lib/libarchive.2.dylib
    0x7fff91598000 -     0x7fff915a9ff7  libz.1.dylib (55) <88C7C7DE-04B8-316F-8B74-ACD9F3DE1AA1> /usr/lib/libz.1.dylib
    0x7fff91760000 -     0x7fff917e4fff  com.apple.PerformanceAnalysis (1.0 - 1) <095E6B1C-DC20-38DC-8931-16041B0489C7> /System/Library/PrivateFrameworks/PerformanceAnalysis.framework/Versions/A/PerformanceAnalysis
    0x7fff917e5000 -     0x7fff9190dff7  com.apple.coreui (2.1 - 308.6) <9E0E9C6A-68F5-34C1-A17C-96226D401D4D> /System/Library/PrivateFrameworks/CoreUI.framework/Versions/A/CoreUI
    0x7fff919a7000 -     0x7fff919a8fff  liblangid.dylib (117) <B54A4AA0-2E53-3671-90F5-AFF711C0EB9E> /usr/lib/liblangid.dylib
    0x7fff91b76000 -     0x7fff91b78ff7  libsystem_coreservices.dylib (9) <41B7C578-5A53-31C8-A96F-C73E030B0938> /usr/lib/system/libsystem_coreservices.dylib
    0x7fff91b96000 -     0x7fff91c56ff7  com.apple.backup.framework (1.6.5 - 1.6.5) <86396038-33EA-3046-9F70-093A3D6407D4> /System/Library/PrivateFrameworks/Backup.framework/Versions/A/Backup
    0x7fff91c95000 -     0x7fff91c99fff  com.apple.TCC (1.0 - 1) <CCA42EE2-3400-3444-9486-BC454E60D944> /System/Library/PrivateFrameworks/TCC.framework/Versions/A/TCC
    0x7fff91cc8000 -     0x7fff91ccbff7  libdyld.dylib (353.2.4) <224F35C5-6E35-3EC4-A97C-80949CE444E7> /usr/lib/system/libdyld.dylib
    0x7fff91ccc000 -     0x7fff91cdeff7  libsasl2.2.dylib (194.1) <35371406-75EF-304A-A073-956C40373555> /usr/lib/libsasl2.2.dylib
    0x7fff91cdf000 -     0x7fff91d73fff  com.apple.ink.framework (10.9 - 213) <8E029630-1530-3734-A446-13353F0E7AC5> /System/Library/Frameworks/Carbon.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/Ink.framework/Versions/A/Ink
    0x7fff91d74000 -     0x7fff91dbaff7  libFontRegistry.dylib (134.1) <CE41D8C2-BEED-345C-BC4F-3775CC06C672> /System/Library/Frameworks/ApplicationServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/ATS.framework/Versions/A/Resources/libFontRegistry.dylib
    0x7fff91e58000 -     0x7fff9205246f  libobjc.A.dylib (647) <759E155D-BC42-3D4E-869B-6F57D477177C> /usr/lib/libobjc.A.dylib
    0x7fff9208b000 -     0x7fff920f2ffb  com.apple.datadetectorscore (6.0 - 396.1.2) <E5A147AE-66B5-3D31-A2E0-D3FAB8417E1F> /System/Library/PrivateFrameworks/DataDetectorsCore.framework/Versions/A/DataDetectorsCore
    0x7fff92154000 -     0x7fff922e2fff  libBLAS.dylib (1128) <497912C1-A98E-3281-BED7-E9C751552F61> /System/Library/Frameworks/Accelerate.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/vecLib.framework/Versions/A/libBLAS.dylib
    0x7fff922e3000 -     0x7fff9267bff7  com.apple.CoreFoundation (6.9 - 1153.18) <5C0892B8-9691-341F-9279-CA3A74D59AA0> /System/Library/Frameworks/CoreFoundation.framework/Versions/A/CoreFoundation
    0x7fff92a46000 -     0x7fff92aa0ff7  com.apple.LanguageModeling (1.0 - 1) <ACA93FE0-A0E3-333E-AE3C-8EB7DE5F362F> /System/Library/PrivateFrameworks/LanguageModeling.framework/Versions/A/LanguageModeling
    0x7fff92aa1000 -     0x7fff92afcff7  libTIFF.dylib (1247) <4932887D-3DD9-3724-84D3-8E7C2EF69E38> /System/Library/Frameworks/ImageIO.framework/Versions/A/Resources/libTIFF.dylib
    0x7fff92b37000 -     0x7fff92b3bfff  libcache.dylib (69) <45E9A2E7-99C4-36B2-BEE3-0C4E11614AD1> /usr/lib/system/libcache.dylib
    0x7fff92b3c000 -     0x7fff92f6cfff  com.apple.vision.FaceCore (3.1.6 - 3.1.6) <C3B823AA-C261-37D3-B4AC-C59CE91C8241> /System/Library/PrivateFrameworks/FaceCore.framework/Versions/A/FaceCore
    0x7fff9334a000 -     0x7fff9334cfff  com.apple.loginsupport (1.0 - 1) <DAAD7013-A19D-3858-BFF7-DE1DAF664401> /System/Library/PrivateFrameworks/login.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/loginsupport.framework/Versions/A/loginsupport
    0x7fff9334d000 -     0x7fff93356fff  libsystem_pthread.dylib (105.40.1) <ACE90967-ECD0-3251-AEEB-461E3C6414F7> /usr/lib/system/libsystem_pthread.dylib
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    0x7fff9335d000 -     0x7fff9335dfff  com.apple.audio.units.AudioUnit (1.12 - 1.12) <E5335492-7EFE-31EA-BE72-4A9CEE68D58E> /System/Library/Frameworks/AudioUnit.framework/Versions/A/AudioUnit
    0x7fff9335e000 -     0x7fff933e7ff7  com.apple.CoreSymbolication (3.1 - 57020.2) <FDAF88F6-7D11-37BC-B758-4B835FA657BA> /System/Library/PrivateFrameworks/CoreSymbolication.framework/Versions/A/CoreSymbolication
    0x7fff933fe000 -     0x7fff933fffff  libDiagnosticMessagesClient.dylib (100) <2EE8E436-5CDC-34C5-9959-5BA218D507FB> /usr/lib/libDiagnosticMessagesClient.dylib
    0x7fff9348f000 -     0x7fff934d0fff  libGLU.dylib (11.1.6) <4BC6579D-A6D0-3A19-880E-E29FAEA698E7> /System/Library/Frameworks/OpenGL.framework/Versions/A/Libraries/libGLU.dylib
    0x7fff934d1000 -     0x7fff934e1ff7  libbsm.0.dylib (34) <A3A2E56C-2B65-37C7-B43A-A1F926E1A0BB> /usr/lib/libbsm.0.dylib
    0x7fff934e2000 -     0x7fff934e3ffb  libremovefile.dylib (35) <3485B5F4-6CE8-3C62-8DFD-8736ED6E8531> /usr/lib/system/libremovefile.dylib
    0x7fff934e4000 -     0x7fff934f2ff7  com.apple.opengl (11.1.6 - 11.1.6) <DB9F2798-F31F-335E-90A9-992C3AA7ECA8> /System/Library/Frameworks/OpenGL.framework/Versions/A/OpenGL

External Modification Summary:
  Calls made by other processes targeting this process:
    task_for_pid: 0
    thread_create: 0
    thread_set_state: 0
  Calls made by this process:
    task_for_pid: 0
    thread_create: 0
    thread_set_state: 0
  Calls made by all processes on this machine:
    task_for_pid: 588461
    thread_create: 0
    thread_set_state: 0

VM Region Summary:
ReadOnly portion of Libraries: Total=177.1M resident=68.2M(39%) swapped_out_or_unallocated=108.9M(61%)
Writable regions: Total=82.2M written=804K(1%) resident=1804K(2%) swapped_out=0K(0%) unallocated=80.5M(98%)
 
REGION TYPE                      VIRTUAL
===========                      =======
Dispatch continuations             16.0M
Kernel Alloc Once                     4K
MALLOC                             55.3M
MALLOC (admin)                       32K
STACK GUARD                        56.0M
Stack                              10.6M
VM_ALLOCATE                          44K
__DATA                             14.1M
__IMAGE                             528K
__LINKEDIT                         70.9M
__TEXT                            106.2M
__UNICODE                           552K
mapped file                        23.3M
shared memory                         4K
===========                      =======
TOTAL                             353.6M


System Profile:
Model: MacPro3,1, BootROM MP31.006C.B05, 8 processors, Quad-Core Intel Xeon, 2.8 GHz, 20 GB, SMC 1.25f4
Graphics: NVIDIA GeForce GTX 760, NVIDIA GeForce GTX 760, PCIe, 2048 MB
Graphics: ATI Radeon HD 5770, ATI Radeon HD 5770, PCIe, 1024 MB
AirPort: spairport_wireless_card_type_airport_extreme (0x168C, 0x8F), Atheros 9280: 4.0.74.0-P2P
Bluetooth: Version 4.3.6f4 17916, 3 services, 18 devices, 1 incoming serial ports
Thunderbolt Bus:
USB Device: Hub
USB Device: Hub in Apple Pro Keyboard
USB Device: USB Laser Mouse
USB Device: Apple Pro Keyboard
USB Device: USB Receiver
USB Device: Bluetooth USB Host Controller
USB Device: USB3.0 Hub
USB Device: USB3.0 Hub
USB Device: USB2.0 Hub
USB Device: USB2.0 Hub
FireWire Device: built-in_hub, Up to 800 Mb/sec
Memory Module: DIMM Riser B/DIMM 1, 4 GB, DDR2 FB-DIMM, 800 MHz, 0x02BA, 0x202020202020202020202020202020202020
Memory Module: DIMM Riser B/DIMM 2, 4 GB, DDR2 FB-DIMM, 800 MHz, 0x02BA, 0x202020202020202020202020202020202020
Memory Module: DIMM Riser A/DIMM 1, 4 GB, DDR2 FB-DIMM, 800 MHz, 0x02BA, 0x202020202020202020202020202020202020
Memory Module: DIMM Riser A/DIMM 2, 4 GB, DDR2 FB-DIMM, 800 MHz, 0x02BA, 0x202020202020202020202020202020202020
Memory Module: DIMM Riser B/DIMM 3, 1 GB, DDR2 FB-DIMM, 800 MHz, 0x80AD, 0x48594D5035313241373243503844332D5335
Memory Module: DIMM Riser B/DIMM 4, 1 GB, DDR2 FB-DIMM, 800 MHz, 0x80AD, 0x48594D5035313241373243503844332D5335
Memory Module: DIMM Riser A/DIMM 3, 1 GB, DDR2 FB-DIMM, 800 MHz, 0x80AD, 0x48594D5035313241373243503844332D5335
Memory Module: DIMM Riser A/DIMM 4, 1 GB, DDR2 FB-DIMM, 800 MHz, 0x80AD, 0x48594D5035313241373243503844332D5335
Parallel ATA Device: OPTIARC DVD RW AD-7170A
Parallel ATA Device: ST31000528AS, 1 TB
Network Service: Wi-Fi, AirPort, en5
Network Service: Ethernet 1, Ethernet, en0
Serial ATA Device: ST31500341AS, 1.5 TB
Serial ATA Device: ST31500341AS, 1.5 TB
Serial ATA Device: OWC Mercury Electra 3G SSD, 120.03 GB
Serial ATA Device: SanDisk SD8SB8U128G1122, 128.04 GB
Serial ATA Device: MARVELL VIRTUALL
 
Last edited:
I'm a bit lost on what you want to achieve? Frankly, I'd focus on RAID or Fusion; I don't believe they'd play nicely together, since they're not designed to be.

It sounds like you want to RAID 1 a Fusion drive to another Fusion drive potentially? I guess you could do that, but I doubt many people have ever tried that.

Ostensibly them, you'd be looking at;

disk0 and disk1 in Fusion to create logical volume disk2
disk3 and disk4 in Fusion to create logical volume disk5
AppleRAID 1 of disk2 and disk5.

Assuming that disk0 and disk3 are SSDs and disk1 and disk4 are HDDs, which makes the Fusion concept make more sense.

I guess the issue here is, would AppleRAID be aware of a fault with a CoreStorage logical volume spanned across more than one physical disk? AppleRAID with single physical disks will warn of any issue by reporting that it's in a degraded state if a member unexpectedly goes offline or has a SMART issue. But since the underlying volumes are logical not physical, and since they span more than one physical disk, I have no understanding of how AppleRAID would be able to determine if a fault had occurred.

Looking at your crashlog, I can see one potential issue; your SSDs are not the same size. Both your Fusion disks would be different sizes before you RAIDed them. AppleRAID 1 would force you to miss some space, but then I've no idea how it would manage where this is taken from.
 
Reliability is also tied with redundancy. Your double-layered setup is still a single pyramid, in this there are more chances for single point of logical failure to drag the whole thing down. Furthermore, both the Apple software RAID and the CoreStorage utilities are not designed to be used this way, at least not multiplexed or intertwined. And you can't even run a test to see what will happen if a physical volume fails since you can't really simulate that. There is a reason for the "traditional" separation of RAID-1 of SSDs for system and then a RAID-1 of HDDs for data.

I am actually quite interested in what your specific use case or workflow is, that would require such complexity just for reliability, which is usually achievable by just a few pairs of RAID-1's and a solid backup strategy.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Draeconis
I'm starting to wonder if my psu is getting old...
I'd guess that the one below can't be about fuisionRAID, can it?
Code: 
*** Panic Report ***
panic(cpu 5 caller 0xffffff800adc139e): "launchd died\nState at Last Exception:\n\n"@/SourceCache/xnu/xnu-2782.50.9/bsd/kern/kern_exit.c:363
[doublepost=1488282506][/doublepost]
Chancha said:
I am actually quite interested in what your specific use case or workflow is, that would require such complexity just for reliability, which is usually achievable by just a few pairs of RAID-1's and a solid backup strategy.
Click to expand...
There's no special use case here.
I just don't get it that, let's say you have 100 levels of complexity and then people say that level 2 is sooo complex.
There's no added "points of failures", just one ssd and one hdd more.

Why I can't simulate offline by pulling the power cable of from on hdd or ssd?

I'm just trying to get this working, so the next time ssd or hdd dies under warranty, I don't have to wait weeks to use my mp again.

I've thought that appleraid is just striping or mirroring logical disks, so it doesn't matter if they are fusiondrives, single ssd's or single hdd's. Seems to be that isn't so simple.
I also thought that having both system and home directories in same disk is easier to backup with ccc-clones and timemachine. Also using home directories in fusion drive is of course much faster.
I've been enjoying the speed of fusion drive in my mp for less than 2 years. Before that, I had system disk in raid1 hdd's.
Looks like I have to downgrade back to that...
[doublepost=1488283164][/doublepost]
Draeconis said:
I guess the issue here is, would AppleRAID be aware of a fault with a CoreStorage logical volume spanned across more than one physical disk? AppleRAID with single physical disks will warn of any issue by reporting that it's in a degraded state if a member unexpectedly goes offline or has a SMART issue. But since the underlying volumes are logical not physical, and since they span more than one physical disk, I have no understanding of how AppleRAID would be able to determine if a fault had occurred.

Looking at your crashlog, I can see one potential issue; your SSDs are not the same size. Both your Fusion disks would be different sizes before you RAIDed them. AppleRAID 1 would force you to miss some space, but then I've no idea how it would manage where this is taken from.
Click to expand...
Why would appleraid need to be aware where the fault is?
If ssd just dies (like happened to my last fusion drive), appleraid just tells that the other half of the mirror is gone. And you can keep using the system. I use SMARTreporter to follow my storages' health.
Maybe appleraid is just old and buggy and that's why they took it out of GUI?
If you can't use appleraid with logical disks, why they allow you to do so and there's no documentation?

Raid disks doesn't have to be same size. When you make appleraid, it will make same sized partitions and use them.
Code: 
TokesMacPro31:~ toke$ diskutil list
/dev/disk0
   #:                       TYPE NAME                    SIZE       IDENTIFIER
   0:      GUID_partition_scheme                        *1.0 TB     disk0
   1:                        EFI EFI                     209.7 MB   disk0s1
   2:                  Apple_HFS Scratch                 999.3 GB   disk0s2
   3:                 Apple_Boot Recovery HD             650.0 MB   disk0s3
/dev/disk1
   #:                       TYPE NAME                    SIZE       IDENTIFIER
   0:      GUID_partition_scheme                        *1.5 TB     disk1
   1:                        EFI EFI                     209.7 MB   disk1s1
   2:          Apple_CoreStorage                         1.5 TB     disk1s2
   3:                 Apple_Boot Boot OS X               134.2 MB   disk1s3
/dev/disk2
   #:                       TYPE NAME                    SIZE       IDENTIFIER
   0:      GUID_partition_scheme                        *1.5 TB     disk2
   1:                        EFI EFI                     209.7 MB   disk2s1
   2:          Apple_CoreStorage                         1.5 TB     disk2s2
   3:                 Apple_Boot Boot OS X               134.2 MB   disk2s3
/dev/disk3
   #:                       TYPE NAME                    SIZE       IDENTIFIER
   0:      GUID_partition_scheme                        *750.2 GB   disk3
   1:                        EFI EFI                     209.7 MB   disk3s1
   2:                  Apple_HFS mp3,1_10.5.5_2017-02-23 749.2 GB   disk3s2
   3:                 Apple_Boot Recovery HD             784.2 MB   disk3s3
/dev/disk4
   #:                       TYPE NAME                    SIZE       IDENTIFIER
   0:      GUID_partition_scheme                        *128.0 GB   disk4
   1:                        EFI EFI                     209.7 MB   disk4s1
   2:          Apple_CoreStorage                         119.7 GB   disk4s2
   3:                 Apple_Boot Boot OS X               134.2 MB   disk4s3
   4:                  Apple_HFS sandisk7GB              6.8 GB     disk4s4
   5:                 Apple_Boot Recovery HD             650.0 MB   disk4s5
/dev/disk5
   #:                       TYPE NAME                    SIZE       IDENTIFIER
   0:      GUID_partition_scheme                        *120.0 GB   disk5
   1:                        EFI EFI                     209.7 MB   disk5s1
   2:          Apple_CoreStorage                         119.7 GB   disk5s2
   3:                 Apple_Boot Boot OS X               134.2 MB   disk5s3
/dev/disk6
   #:                       TYPE NAME                    SIZE       IDENTIFIER
   0:      GUID_partition_scheme                        *1.6 TB     disk6
   1:                        EFI EFI                     209.7 MB   disk6s1
   2:                 Apple_RAID                         1.6 TB     disk6s2
   3:                 Apple_Boot Boot OS X               134.2 MB   disk6s3
                                 Logical Volume on disk1s2, disk4s2
                                 2D093A5D-4727-42FE-ACB2-3CBA5DD9EFC3
                                 Unencrypted Fusion Drive
/dev/disk7
   #:                       TYPE NAME                    SIZE       IDENTIFIER
   0:      GUID_partition_scheme                        *1.6 TB     disk7
   1:                        EFI EFI                     209.7 MB   disk7s1
   2:                 Apple_RAID                         1.6 TB     disk7s2
   3:                 Apple_Boot Boot OS X               134.2 MB   disk7s3
                                 Logical Volume on disk2s2, disk5s2
                                 327E5359-0A6A-4154-B69D-932DC15E7248
                                 Unencrypted Fusion Drive
/dev/disk8
   #:                       TYPE NAME                    SIZE       IDENTIFIER
   0:                  Apple_HFS fusionRAID             *1.6 TB     disk8
[doublepost=1488283902][/doublepost]Hmm,
size of first fusion :
Total Size: 1.6 TB (1613799882752 Bytes) (exactly 3151952896 512-Byte-Units)
and second:
Total Size: 1.6 TB (1613799882752 Bytes) (exactly 3151952896 512-Byte-Units)

I guess appleraid has managed to make equal slices of mirror.
 
toke lahti said:
Why would appleraid need to be aware where the fault is?
If ssd just dies (like happened to my last fusion drive), appleraid just tells that the other half of the mirror is gone. And you can keep using the system. I use SMARTreporter to follow my storages' health.
Maybe appleraid is just old and buggy and that's why they took it out of GUI?
If you can't use appleraid with logical disks, why they allow you to do so and there's no documentation?

Raid disks doesn't have to be same size. When you make appleraid, it will make same sized partitions and use them.

I guess appleraid has managed to make equal slices of mirror.
Click to expand...

Because it's responsible for warning you if there's an issue? I hope you don't keep anything that important only on this system!

If I have an AppleRAID of two physical disks (or logical partitions based on physical disks), and there's a SMART issue or one powers off, AppleRAID can immediately warn me of an issue, because that's what it's looking for. But an issue with a physical disk as part of a logical volume spanned across multiple disks isn't exactly the same thing. I have no way of knowing how AppleRAID would react.

I would assume that since one of the Fusion volumes would refuse to mount then AppleRAID would report a degraded state, but I've never tested that. Why don't you?

Back your machine up, ensure the AppleRAID is 'Online', turn your machine off, disconnect a disk, boot up and see what happens. :)

As for why AppleRAID was removed from Disk Utility, presumably that's because almost none of the systems available today have the ability to store more than one internally.

--

Out of curiosity I'm building this setup within a VM. 4x 40Gb partitions, 2 of which are on an external USB spinning disk, 2 on an internal SSD. Set up two Fusion disks SSD+HDD, AppleRAIDed the logical volumes they both generated, and am currently installing Sierra to it. I'll then disconnect one of the disks and see what the VM does.
 
Last edited:
Draeconis said:
Out of curiosity I'm building this setup within a VM. 4x 40Gb partitions, 2 of which are on an external USB spinning disk, 2 on an internal SSD. Set up two Fusion disks SSD+HDD, AppleRAIDed the logical volumes they both generated, and am currently installing Sierra to it. I'll then disconnect one of the disks and see what the VM does.
Click to expand...
Like I said SMARTreporter tells me about smart issues before DU would, so I don't mind if DU tells me about it or not.

I'm looking forward about your test.
I have my mp in a cabin with filtered air, so taking it out means disconnecting a dozen of cables and after that taking that "storage gimbal" out of 2nd odd place is really PITA. Only bigger pita would be putting it back there.

If my kernel panics are not related to bugs in file system / core storage / apple raid, the only hardware isuue I could imagine, is that apple raid needs to have storage components that have pretty same speed. I have now owc mercury electra 3g (285/275MB/s,60/60kIOPS,<0.1/0.1ms) and sandisk x400(540/340,94/60,0.04ms).
 
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