Who did a 180 after initially ‘loving’ their 2016-2018 MBP?

[bill-p]

Interesting take on the whole situation and very plausible. I appreciate the time you spent to write this up. Guess I'm lucky I use my MBP with an external monitor/mouse/keyboard mostly. I program on my XPS 15 (work provided) all day.

Yeah, I just started a new job and we use HP workstations running on Windows 7 at work... (fun!)

Which then just highlights to me how much nicer my MacOS running machine really is. Or maybe my current workflow is too familiar with MacOS. I can still make do but Windows is just not my spirit animal.

I returned a 15" MBP 2018 to my last job and bought my own 13" 2018 immediately after because I still want MacOS for my personal projects. If the keyboard fails, well, it'll just take 3 days in the "shop" as usual.

 

[c0ppo]

and I won't ever switch until another OS can prove to me that its solution to multi-desktop/workspace is superior.

Install i3 on any linux distro, or install a distro with i3 preinstalled. Way more powerful then MacOS multidesktop/workspace.

But not as easy to learn or configure. But spend 2-3 days on it, and you will love it.

 

[BigBoy2018]

I think you should spend your time in a more meaningless and productive manner. Millions and millions of MacBook Pro with that keyboard has been sold and probably tens of thousands, or thousands, had the issue. If not millions, but only a few hundred of thousands of those MacBook Pro had broken, there would be indisputable proof all over the media and the internet 6 months after the first version was out, recallings and class action suits. Period.

Well apple will soon be ending the ugly butterfly keyboard era so I can buy a macbook again with confidence and you can enjoy your flawed laptop for as long as it lasts.
See ... we can both be happy!!!

 

[poorcody]

In fact, I doubt any other profession aside from maybe IT will ever hit all of the keys as much as a Software Engineer does.

I'm a software engineer. I've written software full-time on my 2016 MBP keyboard for 30+ months. My fellow developers in my group have had similar experience to me (no problems).

So you tell me why this is an isolated case.

Who has said that, really? Why is everything an extreme: the problem affects everybody or it doesn't exist? If the failure rate is 10%, that could be millions if people. 10% would warrant a redesign in my opinion. It doesn't mean every keyboard will break, though.

Also it is WRONG to think that replacing the keyboard is more costly than a redesign. It's pretty simple: Apple has made millions of these keyboards, so they likely already have the millions ready for replacement. The manufacturing process is already in place to make more of the butterfly keys, and only small tweaks can be made to not break the whole process.

AppleInsider today had an article about the keyboard change. They said the yields on the butterfly keyboards are low because of difficulty of manufacturing, so much so that the cost is 250% to 350% a normal laptop keyboard (!). Makes me wonder if the problem is more manufacturing than actual design. But that means replacing the keyboards is even more expensive than it is for other computers, even before you factor in needing to replace the whole topcase.

 

[TheMountainLife]

i do authorized onsite repairs for a major corp and Apple is one of our clients. Although my experience is different from the everyday user, the failure rate is still quite high regardless of the usage behavior.

I look forward to the day where I’m not replacing multiple top cases each day. The battery recall has confirmed job security for me lol.

 

[bill-p]

Install i3 on any linux distro, or install a distro with i3 preinstalled. Way more powerful then MacOS multidesktop/workspace.

But not as easy to learn or configure. But spend 2-3 days on it, and you will love it.

Thanks! I'll take a look at it. I haven't dug that deep into Linux since a couple of years back, so i3 must have slipped through. It seems pretty cool.

I'm a software engineer. I've written software full-time on my 2016 MBP keyboard for 30+ months. My fellow developers in my group have had similar experience.

Well, then I think you are lucky. Or people in my circle just smash their keyboards more.

Who has said that, really? Why is everything an extreme: the problem affects everybody or it doesn't exist? If the failure rate is 10%, that could be millions if people. 10% would warrant a redesign in my opinion. It doesn't mean every keyboard will break, though.

The thing is... if the problem does in fact effect a large enough number of people, and it's consistent, and it's well-documented, and... it warrants the manufacturer providing a program to fix/repair said problem, then the failure rate should be fairly large. Maybe not everyone is affected, but... if it wasn't as big of a problem, why does Apple even have a program? Why do you see so many Youtube videos and so many people proclaiming they have the problem?

It probably won't mean every keyboard will break (so not 100% failure rate) but can you guarantee that the next 10 computers that come straight out of a box won't have keyboards that will eventually break?

And in my case, I have gone through 5 different computers, and 2 of them have had the keyboard replaced twice. That's 100% failure rate thus far.

AppleInsider today had an article about the keyboard change. They said the yields on the butterfly keyboards are low because of difficulty of manufacturing, so much so that the cost is 250% to 350% a normal laptop keyboard (!). Makes me wonder if the problem is more manufacturing than actual design. But that means replacing the keyboards is even more expensive than it is for other computers.

I guess we can agree/disagree on whether or not it's a design flaw, but you gotta admit that a redesign is imminent at this rate, regardless of what the underlying cause was. If a certain design fails to be sustainable given current manufacturing and material constraints, it's reasonable cause for a reassessment.

Also regardless of whether or not it costs Apple more money to repair the keyboard of the MacBook than how much it would cost for... say... Dell to replace the keyboard of the XPS 15, the problem still remains that if they have to decide to just throw away all of the butterfly keyboards they have manufactured, it would cause them even bigger financial loss. Not to mention it'd cost them even more to rework the current manufacturing process (including training people to adapt to the new process) of a new design.

 

[nexusrule]

Well apple will soon be ending the ugly butterfly keyboard era so I can buy a macbook again with confidence and you can enjoy your flawed laptop for as long as it lasts.
See ... we can both be happy!!!

Well, not too much left to enjoy then...mine is from end of 2016 and my company replaces our machines every 3 year... But we are only 5000 between designers, developers, copy writers and product managers so what do I know about how this machines all break or not at scale...

 

[BigBoy2018]

Well, not too much left to enjoy then...mine is from end of 2016 and my company replaces our machines every 3 year... But we are only 5000 between designers, developers, copy writers and product managers so what do I know about how this machines all break or not at scale...

I dont believe you.

>4 attempted fixes by apple
>countless complaints and articles about the problems
>several class action lawsuits
>a special extended warranty program by apple

But if the confirmed flawed butterfly keyboard is the sword you want to die on thats your choice

 

[nexusrule]

I dont believe you.

>4 attempted fixes by apple
>countless complaints and articles about the problems
>several class action lawsuits
>a special extended warranty program by apple

But if the confirmed flawed butterfly keyboard is the sword you want to die on thats your choice

Wake me up when you have proof of a reliable source that shows at least a few thousands failures (and it’s still nothing on the millions of machines sold in 4 years). Where are the thousand, no hundred of thousands, of people that should join these “several class action lawsuits”? Have you asked yourself that?

And if you don’t believe me contact in me in private I can obviously prove that I work for a big tech company with thousand of employees that all work on MacBook Pros, and if the problem was so widespread, well, I would notice it, I would be affected by it, I would have no reason to deny it, but yeah, internet conspiracy theories for the win...

 

[c0ppo]

Wake me up when you have proof of a reliable source that shows at least a few thousands failures

I have a source for you: Apple

Keyboard is under extended warranty program. Even the new 2019 models from day one.
So I have a really simple question for you. If it isn't flawed, why was there a class action lawsuit? And why did Apple put the keyboard under extended warranty?

Out of good heart?

 

[BigMcGuire]

I have a source for you: Apple

Keyboard is under extended warranty program. Even the new 2019 models from day one.
So I have a really simple question for you. If it isn't flawed, why was there a class action lawsuit? And why did Apple put the keyboard under extended warranty?

Out of good heart?

Because Apple wants to protect their reputation. Like you, I don't think it was out of good of heart.

Why was there a class action lawsuit? Apple has $.
Why did Apple put the keyboard under extended warranty? Because people made a big deal about it and it got a lot of press. Press loves it, makes a lot of $ for them. But also, Apple wants to protect its reputation.

When you buy an Apple product, a MBP specifically, you are buying a laptop that costs a lot more than its competition. Apple has to defend its reputation.

I think it does a really good job of that.

That said, putting Apple as the source doesn't work for me. No personal offense intended.

 

[BigBoy2018]

Because Apple wants to protect their reputation. Like you, I don't think it was out of good of heart.

Why was there a class action lawsuit? Apple has $.
Why did Apple put the keyboard under extended warranty? Because people made a big deal about it and it got a lot of press. Press loves it, makes a lot of $ for them. But also, Apple wants to protect its reputation.

When you buy an Apple product, a MBP specifically, you are buying a laptop that costs a lot more than its competition. Apple has to defend its reputation.

I think it does a really good job of that.

That said, putting Apple as the source doesn't work for me. No personal offense intended.

Wow, you really love that damn compromised laptop dont you.

 

[BigMcGuire]

-- Pretty cool recent video on this issue. I really like this YouTuber.
[doublepost=1562285676][/doublepost]

Wow, you really love that damn compromised laptop dont you.

Lemme fix that statement for you: "Wow, you really love that damn laptop dont you."

Yes, yes I do. Not all of us share your opinion. I respect your opinion and the right to have your own opinion, but I definitely don't agree or share it.

I realize a lot of people don't like this keyboard and some claim to (and actually may be) have a lot of issues with it. It will be good if Apple is moving on (re: video).

 

[BigBoy2018]

-- Pretty cool recent video on this issue. I really like this YouTuber.
[doublepost=1562285676][/doublepost]

Lemme fix that statement for you: "Wow, you really love that damn laptop dont you."

Yes, yes I do. Not all of us share your opinion. I respect your opinion and the right to have your own opinion, but I definitely don't agree or share it.

I realize a lot of people don't like this keyboard and some claim to (and actually may be) have a lot of issues with it. It will be good if Apple is moving on (re: video).

This whole thing is just SAD. That we have to be talking about the reliability of keyboards at all in 2019, after more than 150 years of keyboards, well ... just sad.

Jony Ive and apples arrogance about making a laptop unecessarily thin caused this. Totally avoidable and inexcusable.

 

[BigMcGuire]

This whole thing is just SAD. That we have to be talking about the reliability of keyboards at all in 2019, after more than 150 years of keyboards, well ... just sad.

Jony Ive and apples arrogance about making a laptop unecessarily thin caused this. Totally avoidable and inexcusable.

https://appleinsider.com/articles/1...-at-a-faster-rate-than-the-butterfly-keyboard

Re: your post. I do believe we've gone too thin. I'll give you that.

 

[BigBoy2018]

https://appleinsider.com/articles/1...-at-a-faster-rate-than-the-butterfly-keyboard

Re: your post. I do believe we've gone too thin. I'll give you that.

Listen, apple is reverting back to scissor keyboards. You can pull up a stray article that defends your view, but at the end of the day, Apple themselves are telling you all you need to know.

No matter how you slice it, the 2016-2019 macbook pros will always be regarded as the bastard children of the jony ive era

 

[BigMcGuire]

Listen, apple is reverting back to scissor keyboards. You can pull up a stray article that defends your view, but at the end of the day, Apple themselves are telling you all you need to know.

Meanwhile my laptop, my wife's laptop, my relative's laptop, and quite a few others are working just fine with the butterfly keyboard - and have for years+. If they fail, they're covered for 4+ years - something no other manufacturer does. Best laptop I've ever owned. I expect to get 6-9 years out of it!

Apple has sure told me a lot - but more than just telling me, it stands behind its products. That's why it gets my $.

As far as the reverting - that's still a rumor. But this is Macrumors, agreed. I hope it is true!

Happy Thursday or 4th of July if you're in the USA.

 

[poorcody]

Happy Thursday or 4th of July if you're in the USA.

Class act as always, BigM. Happy 4th!

Hopefully the 2019 MBP tweak, and/or the rumored new design, will finally relegate the keyboard back to the sleepy part we all take for granted. I think we can all agree on that.

 

[MrGunnyPT]

My only regret is getting a 13" instead of a 15" that's all.

Keyboard.. meh no way around it really until jeu release a new one

 

[nexusrule]

I have a source for you: Apple

Keyboard is under extended warranty program. Even the new 2019 models from day one.
So I have a really simple question for you. If it isn't flawed, why was there a class action lawsuit? And why did Apple put the keyboard under extended warranty?

Out of good heart?

So, I didn't say there is no keyboard issue. I did say that what the topic opener keeps repeating, that all MacBook Pro with that keyboard will eventually fail, it's simply not true. That only a tiny percentage are affected.

As for your other points. Yes there is a class action lawsuits. So? Is it gaining traction? Will it go somewhere? Are ten of thousands (according to the topic opener opinion they should be hundreds of thousands at least) joining the suit? If not, why?

The program was started by Apple for two reason, imho. Even if tiny (tiny because you have to take into account how many millions of MacBook have been sold since 2016), a percentage of keyboard fails, so it's their duty to start a program. But most of all, Apple being a for profit corporation, they did it for their interest. The program started after the news appeared on an opinion piece on the NYT. It's mostly about public perception, PR and brand management.

Also, notice how, when I told the TO that I work where thousands of these MacBook Pros are used intensively and daily by designers, developers etc. and I don't see anything close to the delusional failure rate he talks about, his answer was "I don't believe you", and when I replied telling him that I can easily prove what I say, it just stopped replying to me. He is clearly a troll.

 

[BigBoy2018]

So, I didn't say there is no keyboard issue. I did say that what the topic opener keeps repeating, that all MacBook Pro with that keyboard will eventually fail, it's simply not true. That only a tiny percentage are affected.

As for your other points. Yes there is a class action lawsuits. So? Is it gaining traction? Will it go somewhere? Are ten of thousands (according to the topic opener opinion they should be hundreds of thousands at least) joining the suit? If not, why?

The program was started by Apple for two reason, imho. Even if tiny (tiny because you have to take into account how many millions of MacBook have been sold since 2016), a percentage of keyboard fails, so it's their duty to start a program. But most of all, Apple being a for profit corporation, they did it for their interest. The program started after the news appeared on an opinion piece on the NYT. It's mostly about public perception, PR and brand management.

Also, notice how, when I told the TO that I work where thousands of these MacBook Pros are used intensively and daily by designers, developers etc. and I don't see anything close to the delusional failure rate he talks about, his answer was "I don't believe you", and when I replied telling him that I can easily prove what I say, it just stopped replying to me. He is clearly a troll.

Sir. Not a troll. My opinion - based on everything I’ve read and heard - is that the way these keyboards are designed are fundamentally flawed.

The ones that are failing are not any different than ones that currently are working; the ONLY difference is that the ones that are failing have been unlucky enough to get a speck of dirt in the wrong spot.

Some people had these keyboards working fine for 1-2 years then all the sudden the space bar starts messing up. Not because their keyboard was a bad batch that came out of one manuacturing run, but because the way these keyboards are designed ... ALL OF THEM ... means it is vunerable to a stray speck of dirt.

So yea I do very much believe in a few years when we look back at this 4 years of apple laptops, we’ll regard them as the bastard children of the Jony Ive era.

I’ll leave you with a quote from John Gruber, well known Apple columnist, who talks to a LOT of people in the industry and gets a feedback from apple product users far and wide:

“I consider these keyboards the worst products in Apple history”

 

[nexusrule]

Sir. Not a troll. My opinion - based on everything I’ve read and heard - is that the way these keyboards are designed are fundamentally flawed.

The ones that are failing are not any different than ones that currently are working; the ONLY difference is that the ones that are failing have been unlucky enough to get a speck of dirt in the wrong spot.

Some people had these keyboards working fine for 1-2 years then all the sudden the space bar starts messing up. Not because their keyboard was a bad batch that came out of one manuacturing run, but because the way these keyboards are designed ... ALL OF THEM ... means it is vunerable to a stray speck of dirt.

So yea I do very much believe in a few years when we look back at this 4 years of apple laptops, we’ll regard them as the bastard children of the Jony Ive era.

I’ll leave you with a quote from John Gruber, well known Apple columnist, who talks to a LOT of people in the industry and gets a feedback from apple product users far and wide:

“I consider these keyboards the worst products in Apple history”

I am sorry but you don't even know what you are talking about. The main problem (and perhaps the only problem since the membrane was added in the first rev) is that the mechanism sometimes ends up not being strong enough, in fact, when a key fails is always the space bar or one the four most used letters in the alphabet (and that is also the reason why writers and developers experience more failure than average). Now this is not by design otherwise you would see a lot more failures, like all writers, developers, and people that use the keyboard a lot would have a broken keyboard, if this doesn't happen it's because, most probably, only a small part of the keyboards during production comes out not strong enough (perhaps you should study a bit like mass production works). Until you can show proof of at least tens of thousands of failure your assertion remains laughable. With the internet and the class action law suit it should be easy to find them, I mean, ten thousands of people would protest online if most MacBook Pros would break, and the lawsuit would be joined by many thousands people, can you show this evidence?

As far as Gruber, he agrees with the thesis that only a tiny fraction of MacBook Pros are affected by the issue, so quoting him doesn't help you.

One more thing: the other "proof" you think you have is the rumour of the new keyboard in 2020...well it's from the same guy that just a few days ago said there was going to be 16'' MB pro in September...what makes you so sure that this rumour is true? Because it looks like it's your main proof that all keyboard are prone to fail...

I feel I have already wasted enough of my time in this silly discussion based on nothing, so bye.

 

[BigBoy2018]

I am sorry but you don't even know what you are talking about. The main problem (and perhaps the only problem since the membrane was added in the first rev) is that the mechanism sometimes ends up not being strong enough, in fact, when a key fails is always the space bar or one the four most used letters in the alphabet (and that is also the reason why writers and developers experience more failure than average). Now this is not by design otherwise you would see a lot more failures, like all writers, developers, and people that use the keyboard a lot would have a broken keyboard, if this doesn't happen it's because, most probably, only a small part of the keyboards during production comes out not strong enough (perhaps you should study a bit like mass production works). Until you can show proof of at least tens of thousands of failure your assertion remains laughable. With the internet and the class action law suit it should be easy to find them, I mean, ten thousands of people would protest online if most MacBook Pros would break, and the lawsuit would be joined by many thousands people, can you show this evidence?

As far as Gruber, he agrees with the thesis that only a tiny fraction of MacBook Pros are affected by the issue, so quoting him doesn't help you.

One more thing: the other "proof" you think you have is the rumour of the new keyboard in 2020...well it's from the same guy that just a few days ago said there was going to be 16'' MB pro in September...what makes you so sure that this rumour is true? Because it looks like it's your main proof that all keyboard are prone to fail...

I feel I have already wasted enough of my time in this silly discussion based on nothing, so bye.

So lets resume this discussion once a new macbook comes out with a scissor keyboard