Who else is disappointed with the Retina MBP?

Discussion in 'MacBook Pro' started by Pentad, Jun 11, 2012.

  1. Pentad macrumors 6502a

    Pentad

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2003
    Location:
    Indiana
    #1
    I had really mixed feelings today with Apple's announcement and I wondered if anyone else was disappointed with Apple and their new direction with the Retina MBP?

    Before everyone rushes to down vote this post, I ask you to put the Kool-aid down for a moment and give my post consideration.

    I think it was quite clear that the Retina MBP (RMBP) is the flagship of Apple and the direction they wish to move forward with. I cannot blame them as the technology they presented today makes sense. Moving the ODD as an accessory, adding some great ports -USB 3.0 and HDMI-, moving to an SSD for storage and using a Retina Display is really fantastic.

    For all the polish of today's keynote, it does bother me that Apple made the RAM and SSD non-upgradeable. While there has been some debate about the SSD, I do not think that it is out-of-line to guess that it probably is non-upgradeable.

    This sets a precedence that I feel Apple will take advantage of. Using non-upgrade parts locks you into a system that cannot grow with you nor allow you to shop around for cheaper parts. Parts that might be cheaper else where or become cheaper over a period of time.

    If the RMBP is a runaway success -which I have not doubts that it will- I expect Apple to slowly phase out the MBP line and move entirely to the RMBP family.

    Looking at the Apple store, I was shocked at what Apple wants to charge you for the 8 GB of memory. Given the prices at Newegg, Amazon, and others, it is clear that Apple is not doing you any favors on memory pricing. Given how big they are, it is a shame that don't try harder.

    I love my MBP and I really like the every feature of the RMBP but I decided against buying the RMBP today because of the memory and SSD.

    Does anyone else feel the same?

    -P
     
  2. axu539 macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2010
    #2
    One thing you have to consider: the very reason Apple was able to make and sell this machine was the proprietarily-designed parts. Using standard parts, the machine couldn't possibly be that thin or fit together as nicely. Furthermore, the proprietary parts do show a nice cost reduction that IS passed onto us. Take a look. Spec out a 15" non-retina MBP with 8 GB RAM and 512 GB SSD (go with aftermarket if you must and my point still stands), and it'll still be more expensive than the 15" retina MBP.
     
  3. Pentad thread starter macrumors 6502a

    Pentad

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2003
    Location:
    Indiana
    #3
    Now, axu539, I asked you to put down the Kool-aid before you respond...

    Let me respond to each of you reasons:

    First, I should ask you about your empirical evidence to support your claims? As a CS Professor, I work with empirical data but since you have none, I will offer some for you:

    Memory:

    Have you actually seen an SO-DIMM? Well, if you haven't here are the dimensions:

    SO-DIMM measure at 6.76 cm in length and a width of 3.175 cm with a maximum total depth of 0.38 cm. (Citation: Google)

    You are telling me that I Apple could not fit two if these inside the RMBP as it is today? Really?? Even if you account for the simple connector, I'm a certain I could put two of these inside the machine.

    SSD:

    Using Newegg's page on the Samsung 830 512GB drive we have the dimensions here:

    Width
    2.75"
    Depth
    3.94"
    Height
    0.28"
    Weight
    0.14 lbs.

    Again, given Apple's dimensions, this drive should fit.


    You see? You argument doesn't hold.

    Let's see what else you wrote:


    Are you new to Apple? I'm not sure Apple passes any 'cost savings' on to us. However, this statement plays well with your next one.

    I accept your challenge!

    I went to Apple's site and if you add a 512GB SSD drive to the top of the line MBP you get this price:

    512GB Solid State Drive [Add $900.00]


    Uh oh, it appears Apple is more expensive here.

    Why the Samsung 830 512 GB SSD is $699.99. You can see it here.

    Now, it is also currently on sale for $560.00.

    (This code will get you 20% off Samsung SSDs @ NewEgg: BTENDJJ22)


    I could have gone with a cheaper SSD but the Samsung 830 is a pretty high end drive and it was STILL cheaper than Apple.

    Perhaps, you will be correct if I look at memory:

    Opps, that doesn't appear to be the case either:

    Apple wants $200.00 to go to 16 GB of memory.

    Newegg here has 16 GB of memory for roughly $127.00 if you average all of them together.


    Wow, I guess I won the challenge. That Kool-aid will get you every time...

    Perhaps you will see why I am unhappy with Apple moving to properity hardware.

    Finally, the above facts don't show that the sad and memory will continue to fall in price. Apple -in the past- has not been eager to reduce the cost of their memory and drives.


    -P
     
  4. Xcelerate macrumors regular

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2008
    #4
    I don't know... if you're looking for upgradeability, I feel like there are other brands that are more made for that sort of thing. Apple wants to provide a good product that is "future-proof" for a while.

    I'm actually a bit of the opposite opinionS. uppose Apple could integrate every single computational part together -- GPU, CPU, motherboard, RAM -- in one giant fabrication process (not gonna happen, but bear with me). This would drastically reduce power consumption, size, heat production, etc. And they wouldn't be able to overprice their offering because then nobody would buy it. So you get some huge benefits, but the downside is that it's no longer upgradeable. Not too bad of a trade-off, at least for me personally.
     
  5. iLog.Genius macrumors 601

    iLog.Genius

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    Feb 24, 2009
    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario
    #5
    As an initial release, it might look like bad value when you compare it to the MacBook Pro and the RAM and HDD that is user-replacable and also when you consider that solid-state memory is still relatively expensive. But, I don't think Apple is looking for RMBP to have the same success as the MacBook Pro.

    In the keynote, they mentioned that the RMBP is the future so there is zero doubt the current MacBook Pro will eventually be on it's way out. When will that time come? Who knows but likely when memory prices drop because I can't see Apple having the RMBP become the flagship if parts will cost 900 to replace.

    But as the RMBP stands now, really don't have a problem with it's spec other than the 256GB SSD, I could see how this would attract some types of customers but for most of us where RAM and HDD (possibly even ethernet?) is important to us, the current MacBook Pro is the obvious solution for now and the near future.
     
  6. tdream macrumors 65816

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2009
    #6
    Apple will charge a premium whenever and wherever it can. Yes the screen is beautiful, but forget all the emotional marketing nonsense for a second and realise. This is an amazing screen attached to an air like body. Why didn't they just make this an option for the standard 15" macbook? Do many people really want a razor thin laptop anyway? I don't know anyone who thinks the macbook is fat compared to all windows laptops out there.

    By taking out user upgradeability, they get to rape you at the checkout. Memory and hard drive sizes are only options at the store and if you want to change them afterwards, probably will only be able to do it at an Apple store if at all.
     
  7. iLog.Genius macrumors 601

    iLog.Genius

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2009
    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario
    #7
    Your points are valid but I think people need to stop thinking like Apple is trying to rob you. The RMBP is more for those who fully understand what they need and once they checkout they're not even worrying about or thinking about future upgrades. That might come after but not when the MacBook Pro is still available. Now I understand there are users out there that are very demanding but I don't think the RMBP is necessarily for them - I think the RMBP right now is nothing more than a "fluff feature" because nothing really is optimized for it yet but that's obviously going to change. Now the RMBP is fully functional but this is Apple's test model, they might sell a few hundred of thousands but it's something Apple is learning from for when the time comes to fully migrate over from the current MacBook Pro.
     
  8. Astroboy907 macrumors 65816

    Astroboy907

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    May 6, 2012
    Location:
    Spaceball One
    #8
    Thing is, I am absolutely sure apple couldve fit in a 7mm SSD with plenty of room to spare. Same for RAM. They just charge us so much more for them....
     
  9. therealseebs macrumors 65816

    therealseebs

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2010
    #9
    Note that the prices you're quoting for the SSD and RAM bought elsewhere are artificially inflated compared to the costs Apple charges for the upgrades; if you bought SSD and RAM after-market, you would end up with a spare hard drive and some spare memory, and even if it's not worth much, it'd be worth SOMETHING.

    I think the primary motivation for these is to require you to buy the upgrades from Apple.

    And yeah, I'm pretty disappointed, I was all enthused about the idea, but the more I look at it, the less it looks like it would really be that much better than a reasonably high-res display. Like, say, a 1920x1200 in that form factor, which would be pretty high resolution, but a lot cheaper.
     
  10. css136 macrumors member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2008
    #10
    Apple charges you $200 to upgrade to 16 GB from 8 GB. The prices you are quoting are to buy 16 GB of RAM

    To actually compare prices, you would need to find the price differences between 8 GB and 16 GB on NewEgg.

    (Presumably, Apple has already charged you to buy 8 GB, but they are not subtracting this from the total price when you upgrade to 16 GB)
     
  11. JS3 macrumors regular

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2010
    #11
    I thought with seeing the retina in the new iPad that the entire line was sure to get retina. SO kinda disappointed that the entire line isn't retina.
     
  12. axu539 macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2010
    #12
    Your post is rather unnecessarily belligerent. I never tried to challenge you, I merely brought up some points to consider. Your repeated mention of kool-aid is also unnecessary.

    First and foremost, I was asking you to compare the non-retina MBP with the retina MBP (similarly spec'ed), NOT an Apple SSD with a non-Apple SSD. The non-retina (with Apple SSD comes to $3099 with a $900 SSD, or if you want to use your own Samsung SSD, $700 retail, that comes to $2899. The retina MBP is $2799 for the same 8 GB RAM, 512 GB SSD.) You might argue the Samsung SSD or other 3rd party SSDs can be had on sale for much cheaper. Those are on sale, that is not a fair comparison, since those are not standard prices. Just for fun, let's consider the $560 830 on sale. This puts the non-retina MBP at about $2199 + $560 = $2759, $40 cheaper than the retina. I would happily pay $40 for a retina display, wouldn't you?

    2nd. Take a look at the innards of the new MBP. The entire SSD is about the size of a current stick of RAM, and all 16 GB of RAM sit in a region, also about the size of ONE stick of standard RAM. Do you see space in the layout that can fit more components, taking into account the cooling system? Proprietary systems will always yield better space utilization, entirely because the designer is able to shape and organize components however they want, without having to tailor anything to the designs of other firms. In this case, it looks like the cost savings show, even if just a little bit, as well.
     
  13. spronkey macrumors newbie

    Joined:
    May 28, 2009
    #13
    I'm super disappointed. My summary of the recent updates:

    MacBook Pro with Retina Display
    IPS retina display will be fantastic, but:

    • Likely proprietary SSD
    • Non-upgradable RAM
    • No antiglare option
    • Very expensive
    • BTO Options are stupidly expensive
    Classic Apple - try and rape us into the high end model by crippling the lower end upgrade options. Classic post-2010 Apple - rape us in a couple of years by removing all upgrade options. Just like the Airs, these new Pros won't hold their used value nearly as well as the older ones thanks to their limited longetivity.

    MacBook Pro 15"

    • Price drop, but not nearly big enough.
    • No SSD+HDD option disappointing.
    • However, the high res antiglare option is now slightly cheaper.
    • Disappointing to not see SSDs standard at the price point.
    • Ridiculously expensive drive upgrades.

    MacBook Pro 13"
    I was really hoping for a breath of fresh air here. 15" is just a bit too large, and the 13" Air is too limited with it's soldered RAM and stupid SSD form factor.

    Once again, Apple has neglected what really for many people would be the key machine in their line up.

    It's sitting back with no dedicated graphics, only 1280x800 LCD resolution with no high res or antiglare options (even the 13" air is 1440x900, WTF!?), and once again, no SSDs as standard, and uncompetitive pricing.

    What I would really like to see from Apple is:

    • 13" Macbook Pro
    • 2x SODIMM Slots (user-upgradable)
    • SSD as standard, 2.5" form factor (user-upgradable)
    • Retina display w/ Antiglare, or at the very least, 1440x900 antiglare option
    • 2x Thunderbolt, 2x USB3 at minimum
    • Gigabit Ethernet port
    • Ditch the optical, and make it a bit thinner and lighter. But don't sacrifice as much as the new "MacBook Pro with Retina Display" (Seriously, would Steve have let them call it that!?)
     
  14. dlimes13, Jun 11, 2012
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2012

    dlimes13 macrumors 6502a

    dlimes13

    Joined:
    May 3, 2011
    Location:
    Perrysburg, OH
    #14
    At least someone see what I see. Apple wants us to buy new computers every two years or less. Non-upgradable parts will not enable us to use the computer for longer than we should. What's the first thing we do when our notebooks are slowing down? Upgrade what we can, as in HDD/SSD or RAM. Gives us a significant boost and we can use our notebooks for a longer period of time smoothly.

    My biggest gripe is the RAM. The SSD you can change, just blade style but at least you can change that. RAM, forget about it. And don't give me the crap that paging on an SSD will make it better. No it will not.

    ----------


    This, exactly.


    And guess what? What happens in two years when 16 GB SO-DIMMS and 1 TB+ SSDs are out? Can't stick that in your Retina MBP (SSD MAYBE Blade only, but at a raping cost). You have to buy a whole new computer.

    Ivy Bridge and even Sandy Bridge will take 32 GB RAM.


    The new Apple, Inc.

    Catering to the rich and general consumer. What's a professional?


    I'll be getting the fat MacBook Pro 15 and max the CPU. Hopefully that'll last 5 years or so. In 2-3 years, I'll upgrade to 32 GB RAM and a 2 TB SSD for UNDER $600. And I won't have to get a new computer.
     
  15. css136 macrumors member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2008
    #15
    If you want longevity, you need to pay for it. A decent MBP now costs $2,800.

    It's a really good laptop, but too expensive for most people. Hopefully the costs will come down. I think this new MBP Retina is experimental and maybe within a year, people can get much better configurations at much lower costs
     
  16. spronkey macrumors newbie

    Joined:
    May 28, 2009
    #16
    1. Apple SSDs are typically rebranded Toshiba or Samsung SSDs, and typically not best of breed regardless. So Non-Apple is actually better and cheaper.
    2. Remove the cost of the 500GB HDD as standard for a fair comparison
    3. Re the RAM and/or SSD - so give us one SODIMM slot. Or make it SLIGHTLY thicker - who cares about 1-2mm on a 15" machine? Pretty soon we'll have 16GB DIMMs. I don't care, just don't remove my upgradability!
    4. Alternatively, to get the thinness, remove some performance headroom on the GPU and CPU, and reduce the size of the cooling. Or battery. Sigh.


    ----------

    I'm stuck on a 2008 15" Unibody that will soon need a new battery. I'm torn whether to ditch it now for a refurb high res 15", or do another round of upgrades (RAM -> 8GB, HDD -> SSD, new battery)...
     
  17. Xcallibur macrumors 6502a

    Xcallibur

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    Location:
    Manchester
    #17
    Hear, hear!
     
  18. dlimes13 macrumors 6502a

    dlimes13

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    #18
    The way technology advances so quickly, I wouldn't agree with longevity so much. An upgradable unit will outlast the non-upgradable (usually).
     
  19. baypharm macrumors 65816

    baypharm

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2007
    #19
    I am. 1440x900 (adjusted for the 15" screen is not what I want. I'll stick with my 17"....
     
  20. pflau macrumors 6502

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2007
    #20
    Look, I don't know what the big deal is. If you don't like the price, don't buy it! Eventually when the current MBPs are phased out, the RMBP prices will come down to fill the price points.

    Also, Apple HAS to charge a premium for their products, because of their user base. Have you read about the guy who took back brand new iPad for exchange 10 times before finally finding one he liked?
     
  21. Martialis macrumors member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2012
    #21
    What does that mean? I'm pretty sure most of us aren't completely neurotic to the point of exchanging a product 10 times. If Apple doesn't like frivolous returns, they should charge a deterrent restocking fee except in cases of damage or defect attributable to Apple.

    ----------

    Also, I don't understand why Apple has such a fetish for thin laptops. Sure, its nice. I wouldn't want some monstrous huge thing, but despite what they seem to think thinner isn't automatically better.
     
  22. matrix07 macrumors 68040

    matrix07

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2010
    #22
    It's almost the perfect notebook (save for wireless being N not AC) and people bitches. :rolleyes:
     
  23. Demosthenes X macrumors 68000

    Demosthenes X

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2008
    #23
    Look - I actually agree with you overall. Apple's prices for BTO upgrades have always sucked, and smart consumers have always known to do upgrades themselves rather than pay Apple for them.

    But comparing the internet discounter price of components to the retail price of an upgrade has always been equally silly. It's the same as comparing the cost of buying a computer to building one yourself from parts: it's just not a good comparison. Of course DIY is going to be cheaper.

    Part of what you pay for with BTO is having an expert do the upgrade, and having peace of mind of that upgrade being 100% covered by warranty.

    So comparing the price of the upgrade to the price of components alone is a useless and stupid endeavour. In actual fact, Apple's prices for BTO upgrades tend to be pretty reasonable when the computer is released. As time goes on, components become cheaper and the upgrade does not, and it becomes a less attractive deal.
     
  24. iMusings macrumors member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2009
    #24

    The power consumption of the RMBP is significantly higher. The RMBP comes with a 95WH battery as compared to a 77.5WH battery on the MBP.

    If they made the retina display an optional upgrade that can be shoehorned onto the existing MBP, it will result in dismal battery life, and no one will want that.

    ----------

    Yes, but the bigger issue here is that choice is being removed.

    These new MBPs are quite literally not going to be serviceable in any shape or form.

    Memory failure? New logic board.

    Disk failure? New logic board.

    Not a good trend to be headed towards especially on what is touted to be a pro laptop. And don't get me started about the inability to backup and retrieve your data should you be unable to start your computer one day.
     
  25. ixodes macrumors 601

    ixodes

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    Location:
    Pacific Coast, USA
    #25
    Apple is free to charge the highest price the market will pay. They've mastered this to the point of having higher gross margins than any other computer maker. It's no surprise to anyone who follows Apple.

    I give Apple a lot of credit for being able to command such a premium. Remember if you think it's too much, there are other choices. My preference for Apple is based on other considerations. Price is just a fact of life when choosing Apple.
     

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