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question fear said:
Has anyone read good to great by jim collins??
It's all about companies that remain successful over a span of years and improve upon those successes, and what makes them work...and across the board, companies with ceos that defined the company failed as soon as the ceo stepped down/died/retired etc. Companies who succeeded and bested themselves over the years were the companies whose ceo was someone who ran the company well, and who never lost sight of the fact that the biggest part of his/her job was finding their replacement.
I love apple, but I worry about their future sans Steve.

I don't understand the hero worship of Steve Jobs. I agree that Apple is succeeding with him at the helm, but I am not sure that his vision is the cause of the revival. It seems to me that his predecessors' lack of vision was the problem.

Steve's track record is hardly the greatest: NeXT? Pixar itself only succeeded due to the stubbornness of those in power, resisting his desire to axe the animation division.

Steve has a history of failure and success. I am amazed that the people on this forum are so confident about the future of Apple under his leadership. Do you not fear yet another dip?

We all claim to love Apple and sing the praises of recent success, but let's not forget that only 12 months ago the picture was not so great. Apple is still losing market share in the supply of computers to nearly all markets. Does nobody remember the days of 8+% market share. Apple is not even second on the OS market.

The computers they manufacture are not amazing. I paid $3,000+ for a 17" Powerbook about 15 months ago. The machine is beautifully made, but what exactly did I pay for. The screen is crap in any environment other than inside away from windows. The 1Ghz processor is feeble at best and the front side bus is a joke. I paid for the best that Apple had to offer because I wanted OSX and I wanted to get as close to PC performance as possible.

Now we are all extremely excited about the iMac G5: but the truth is that the 64bit power will mean nothing to most of us unless we upgrade to software that takes advantage of it. Next, a G5 iMac will not match the power of an equivalently priced, well chosen PC.

Apple's computer division is failing and don't let the hype around corporate image and the success of the iPod hide that from you. Steve momentarily appeared to change that trend with the success of the original G3 iMac, but the truth is that the development was well under way by the time Steve rejoined and Jonathan Ives was already on board designing the look of the machine. Steve's only real input was to push the machine towards being nothing more than a stripped down internet access station. He backed out from that and reverted to the original vision. So no gold star for Steve there.

Now let's look at the Apple advertising campaign. It's great for something like the iPod where the word of mouth advertising combined with the image projected through the adverts is cool and therefore people want one.

That won't work for a computer. Steve Jobs is convinced that projecting an image will work for Apple, but it won't. Many resellers don't have the selling patter required to convince people to switch platforms. Next, for many people the key piece of software required to make them switch is MS Office. The truth is that the cost of this software on top of an already expensive machine makes many walk away.

Steve Jobs has a history of making expensive machines and keeping the prices up. He wants the masses, but he wants them to want an Apple so much that they are willing to pay through the nose for it. One need only look at the ridiculous pricing of Apple's RAM to understand that they overcharge. The eMac is a well priced machine, but it is relatively ugly and most Apple users are too vain to use that as their machine.

To my mind there are 2 types of Apple consumer aside from the corporate side (publishing etc.) 1. The vain that want a stylised machine that has an air of exclusivity about it - for these users the idea of Apple being mainstream is not a comfortable one regardless of their claims. The other type of user is an OSX fan that sees the style of the machine as a bonus. I believe that a large group of these users get pissed off with the performance of the machines that they pay a small fortune for.

My next gripe about Apple is that they know best. We all like to think that Apple has our desires in mind but that is a fallacy: I know many Apple users and the majority of them want a 3 buttoned mouse, but Apple is ridiculously steadfast at resisting that idea. I believe that it is because of SJ's arrogance. Apple invented the mouse and it had one button. If it needed more than 1 button Apple would have developed it. They didn't therefore it is a Microsoft gimmick. SJ digs these holes from which he cannot climb out without losing face. He is too arrogant for that and so we still have a 1 button mouse.

Next we all get so hyped up about the new monitors. Unless I am greatly mistaken, they are again hugely overpriced and are not using the latest technology. We'll be suckers and go for them. I know that many of us will have seen the previous Apple monitors in the background of many a DVD extra interview, but they are always locked away in a darkened room.

Apple's forte is software and, to be honest, it ran on Intel processors I'd not hesitate to switch to an Intel/AMD machine. As it is I am stuck with the beautiful rubbish that Apple overcharge me for. To my mind I'd like to see the back of Steve Jobs and have a replacement with an obssession with quality in ALL areas including customer respect and pricing.
 
wrldwzrd89 said:
There's not a whole lot Apple can do about being stuck with GeForce 5200s - it's because Apple chose Open Firmware instead of a "standard" PC BIOS; therefore, Mac versions of graphics cards have to be written to communicate with OF, a task that only Apple seems to find worthwhile (ATI and nVidia can't be bothered, it seems - they hand the work over to Apple).

you know they could just replace them with 9600's they dont cost to much more like $25 per mac wholesale
 
jacobj said:
The computers they manufacture are not amazing. I paid $3,000+ for a 17" Powerbook about 15 months ago. The machine is beautifully made, but what exactly did I pay for. The screen is crap in any environment other than inside away from windows. The 1Ghz processor is feeble at best and the front side bus is a joke. I paid for the best that Apple had to offer because I wanted OSX and I wanted to get as close to PC performance as possible.

stop with the bitching and moaning about your powerbook, that happens computers get old, i know many people makeing there liveings from 5-6 year old macs, i'm useing a 600MHz ibook and it gets the job done, the speed you want is probably from the HD it's like that with every notebook 3.5" disks are allot faster get yourself a firewire 800 disk and you will be amazed, there is nothing you can do about the lcd, it's like that with all lcd's and even crt's you take them in the sun and you cant see crap.
 
Hector said:
stop with the bitching and moaning about your powerbook, that happens computers get old, i know many people makeing there liveings from 5-6 year old macs, i'm useing a 600MHz ibook and it gets the job done, the speed you want is probably from the HD it's like that with every notebook 3.5" disks are allot faster get yourself a firewire 800 disk and you will be amazed, there is nothing you can do about the lcd, it's like that with all lcd's and even crt's you take them in the sun and you cant see crap.

Don't kid yourself

The technology was old when I bought it, but to ensure that we get an up to date perspective let's look at the following for comparison:

Apple PowerBook: $2,900

Screen: 15.2"
Resolution: 1280 x 854
Front Side Bus (equiv): let's not even go there.
Processsor: G4 1.5Ghz
L2 Cache: 512K
RAM: 1GB
Video Card: ATI Radeon 9700 128MB
Hard Drive: 80gb ATA @5400
Wi-Fi: Airport Extreme built in
Bluetooth: Adapter built in
Keyboard: backlit

Alienware Laptop: $2,951


Screen: 15.4"
Resolution: 1680 x 1050
Processsor: P4 w/ HT technology 3.0Ghz
Front Side Bus: 800Mhz
L2 Cache: 512K
RAM: 1GB
Video Card: ATI Radeon 9700 128MB
Hard Drive: 80gb ATA @5400
Wi-Fi: Built in
Bluetooth: External Adapter
Keyboard: standard


I specced to Alienware down to stay in line with the Apple price. Of course to be fair on the Alienware I should have compared it to the $3,199 17" PowerBook to ensure an equivalent screen resolution, in which case the Alienware could be upped to 3.4Ghz.. and still save $120.00..

Now I may not know too much about computers... but I am betting that the Alienware would leave the PB for dust in 99.9% of tests.

Apple keep arguing against the Ghz myth as they call it, but their Powerbooks are using old technology that has never seriously competed with Intel, let alone compete with the latest intels.

Apple are a software house and that is it. If I had my way, they'd release OSX for Intel/AMD machines and I'd be a happy happy man.
 
jacobj said:
Don't kid yourself

The technology was old when I bought it, but to ensure that we get an up to date perspective let's look at the following for comparison:

Apple PowerBook: $2,900

Processsor: G4 1.5Ghz

Alienware Laptop: $2,951

Processsor: P4 w/ HT technology 3.2Ghz

I know I shouldn't go there because I'm not too familiar with all the pentium models, but should we really be comparing a P4 to a G4? I thought the P4 was a battery hog. Yes, I realize the Pentium-M outperforms a G4, but a P4? Running on batteries?
 
wordmunger said:
I know I shouldn't go there because I'm not too familiar with all the pentium models, but should we really be comparing a P4 to a G4? I thought the P4 was a battery hog. Yes, I realize the Pentium-M outperforms a G4, but a P4? Running on batteries?


I edited my original post a little as I submitted before I had finished. For the price diff between the Apple and the Alienware you could by 2 extra batteries.. I little hassle I know, but the P$ isn't that bad.
 
jacobj said:
I edited my original post a little as I submitted before I had finished. For the price diff between the Apple and the Alienware you could by 2 extra batteries.. I little hassle I know, but the P$ isn't that bad.

Extra batteries aren't a "hassle," they're a deal breaker. Keeping all those batteries charged is a pain.
 
jacobj said:
Apple PowerBook: $2,900

Screen: 15.2"
Resolution: 1280 x 854
Front Side Bus (equiv): let's not even go there.
Processsor: G4 1.5Ghz
L2 Cache: 512K
RAM: 1GB
Video Card: ATI Radeon 9700 128MB
Hard Drive: 80gb ATA @5400
Wi-Fi: Airport Extreme built in
Bluetooth: Adapter built in
Keyboard: backlit

Alienware Laptop: $2,951


Screen: 15.4"
Resolution: 1680 x 1050
Processsor: P4 w/ HT technology 3.0Ghz
Front Side Bus: 800Mhz
L2 Cache: 512K
RAM: 1GB
Video Card: ATI Radeon 9700 128MB
Hard Drive: 80gb ATA @5400
Wi-Fi: Built in
Bluetooth: External Adapter
Keyboard: standard

And what's your point? If Apple were to make their laptops 1.5" to 2" thicker, they'd be able to add a G5 in there. Its not really an engineering feat to be able to add a faster, but hotter processor into a laptop by making the case thicker. ;)

You don't think that if Apple were to make a thick brick laptop with a few fans, that they wouldn't be able to fit a G5 in there? Of course they could, but one of the reasons to pay for an Apple is because of hardware and software design, and while Alienware is great at slapping some nice parts into a big case, Apple could do the same with a G5 if they gave up on size, weight, battery life, noise, and portability as well.

If Alienware can fit all those components into an Apple 15" Alu Powerbook while still maintaining a good weight and battery life, let us know. I'd buy it as well. ;)
 
Abstract said:
And what's your point? If Apple were to make their laptops 1.5" to 2" thicker, they'd be able to add a G5 in there. Its not really an engineering feat to be able to add a faster, but hotter processor into a laptop by making the case thicker. ;)

You don't think that if Apple were to make a thick brick laptop with a few fans, that they wouldn't be able to fit a G5 in there? Of course they could, but one of the reasons to pay for an Apple is because of hardware and software design, and while Alienware is great at slapping some nice parts into a big case, Apple could do the same with a G5 if they gave up on size, weight, battery life, noise, and portability as well.

If Alienware can fit all those components into an Apple 15" Alu Powerbook while still maintaining a good weight and battery life, let us know. I'd buy it as well. ;)

The current G5 wouldn't fit in there if it were 5" thick..
 
jacobj said:
I am amazed that the people on this forum are so confident about the future of Apple under his leadership.

Perception is reality, there are many sought after CEO's, not because they are all seeing and knowing, because they bring together those with talent and vision and set them on a course.

As long as those characteristics are valued, Steve will be valued. Wall Street doesn't believe in Apple, they believe in Steve & and even more in Profit. When he sneezes the stock will drop, sad but true.

I am sick of the market share argument, for all I know Gateway has more market share than Apple, who gives a crap. Read "From worst to First" the turn around of Continental Airlines. The first thing they threw out was the constant discounting for market share.

As the market increases, is it better to have 10% of 100 million customers or 3% of a Billion? Market Share is the quest of the short sighted, soon to fail biz model. Go for product, price, PROFIT. That is what has given Dell the edge over Gateway, and Windows competitors. Lookout HP. Market Share is a good measure in Biz, but not THE measure.
 
jacobj said:
The current G5 wouldn't fit in there if it were 5" thick..

yes they would, the current 2.0GHz g5 970fx dissipates 25w and peaks at around 35w, p4 mobiles are around that, apple has never been into desktop repalcements and they never will they will only make a powerbook thats under 1.5" thick
 
stubeeef said:
jacobj said:
I am amazed that the people on this forum are so confident about the future of Apple under his leadership.

Perception is reality, there are many sought after CEO's, not because they are all seeing and knowing, because they bring together those with talent and vision and set them on a course.

As long as those characteristics are valued, Steve will be valued. Wall Street doesn't believe in Apple, they believe in Steve & and even more in Profit. When he sneezes the stock will drop, sad but true.

I am sick of the market share argument, for all I know Gateway has more market share than Apple, who gives a crap. Read "From worst to First" the turn around of Continental Airlines. The first thing they threw out was the constant discounting for market share.



As the market increases, is it better to have 10% of 100 million customers or 3% of a Billion? Market Share is the quest of the short sighted, soon to fail biz model. Go for product, price, PROFIT. That is what has given Dell the edge over Gateway, and Windows competitors. Lookout HP. Market Share is a good measure in Biz, but not THE measure.

The main thrust of my argument was not about market share. Analysts are a fickle bunch that people put a lot of hope in. I used to work for THE investment house and I can assure you that they are extremely fallible: one need only look at Enron and Worldcom for a case in hand.

The main thrust of my argument was that hardware sales, with the exception of the iPod are failing under Steve Jobs:

2003:

PowerMac: $1,237 - 667
PowerBook: $1,299 - 604
iMac: $1,238 - 1094
iBook: $717 - 647

Total: $4,491 -3012


2002:

PowerMac: $1,380 - 766
PowerBook: $831 - 357
iMac: $1,448 - 1301
iBook: $875 - 677

Total: $4,534 - 3101

Only a 1% profit drop between 2002 and 2003, but then that does not take inflation into account, which worsens that loss. The real year on year comparison is between the unit sales that dropped from 3101 to 3012 or 2.87% in a year where world sales were going up. Don't kid yourself that this is OK or that the PowerMac will fix it.

We all know that iMac sales were dropping prior to them being discontinued and that the G5 will be a desperate bid to recapture the sales of the G3. Nor do the increased sales figures for laptops make up for the decrease in desktops. Steve is no fool, I will admit: it was clear that laptops would sell well this year and he chose to focus attention on an area of sales that was bound to increase over 2003-2004 (unless Apple cocked up hugely). He thus got the praise of the media for being right.

The analysts love Steve for Apple's success in the Music industry and his persuasive dealing behind the scenes. But then he is arrogant and tried to screw the Indies in Europe.. His arrogance has been his failing in the past and yet you are all SO hopeful about him..

Anyway, my point was that apple was a failing computer hardware manufacturer and I see nothing to disprove that.
 
Market Share
Chevy cavalier=big market share-inexpensive
Bently=small market share=expensive

Which one would you want?

They both go highway speeds, carry groceries, and have a radio.
 
I wont argue falling sales in units, not going to bother looking up $ or margins.

iMacs like bikes, have a product design life, as they mature sales fall. And if sales are not filled (G5 2.5) sales are lost! a major no-no. The company that I work at is fighting back orders with vigor!! Apple must do better.

Music is a good move, no doubt.

I have worked for arogant, A**Hole ceo's and quit. While I was not happy with Krispy Kreme's CEO, I still eat the doughnuts.

The fact is, who is faster or slower, bigger or smaller, you also put your $ in a powerbook, a piece of hardware.

I also wish I could run OSX on intel, but then I would lose so much more of my experience, much like those who buy coffee from Starbucks, vs Exxon.
 
Abstract said:
Didn't Apple report a record profit recently?


Due to iPod sales!

I dug a little deeper on the back of the article that another poster attached. Apple's unit sales have indeed increased for the last Q year on year - by 4%. As a whole the PC market's sales have increased by 15%.

I know you can all argue that market share doesn't count, and at this rate of sales Apple looks good, or does it. Looks at recession trends. A good company should come out of a recession with a bigger market share than when it entered. Apple has failed to do this and its market share drops year in year out.

I disagree that running OSX on an Intel machine is a compromise. It is a departure from the norm, but it is certainly not a compromise. There would, of course be those that run OSX on cheap PCs and I would like to let them. At least that way they get the benefits of a great OS.

There are PC manufacturers that produce Intel machines comparable to Apple in every way and better them on performance.

What about my PB is so great other than looks and a snazzy keyboard? My only answer is OSX and so I paid for it.

I find it hard to believe that the majority of people care about the OS. Most people don't care about the OS - millions don't even know what an OS is. What the consumer cares about is performance and looks, in that order.

Apple's laptop performance is poor.

The iMac G4 never sold as well as the G3, nor did it compete favourably with PC sales in the same range.
 
I love this recent article. The discovery of how wonderful it can all fit together, hardware and software.

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/science_technology/story.jsp?story=552489

"It was a thing of beauty straight out of the box. Even something as mundane as the power supply adaptor is sleek and elegant. (This can make you feel guilty about using non-Apple product attachments, which can seem rather like sticking a satellite dish on the outside of a listed building.)"

This thread is getting to be more in need of a wharton mba follow on, and I am inadequate for that.

The way I sum it up: Jobs retook the helm, set a course, and has done a wonderful JOB where others had not. Another CEO may do better, but shareholders would be batty to try. Nearly all credable experts will tell you that Apple sets most of the trends, (notice no one else uses cow boxes) be it style or other (firewire). Most of us want Steve to live long and prosper, albeit at Apple. Most fear change, like me, and don't think we want eisner, don't know how they feel about mikey dell.
Carpe per diem, make Mac's while the sun shines!

I am sorry you (jacobj) feel that apple laptops performance is POOR!?
I may understand that you feel it is not superior to some other highend machines, but I know it is better than the sony vaio my company gave me running win98, weighs a ton, and I HATE it.
 
jacobj said:
Due to iPod sales!
This is from 3rd quarter 10-Q

Three Months Ended Nine Months Ended
6/26/04 6/28/03 Change 6/26/04 6/28/03 Change
Net Sales by Product:
Power Macintosh net sales (b) $ 332 $ 234 42% $ 1,079 $ 819 32%
PowerBook net sales 435 363 20% 1,170 951 23%
iMac net sales 235 301 (22)% 738 959 (23)%
iBook net sales 261 196 33% 705 563 25%

Total Macintosh net sales 1,263 1,094 15% 3,692 3,292 12%

iPod 249 111 124% 769 224 243%
Other music products (c) 73 12 508% 180 20 800%
Peripherals and other hardware (d) 219 168 30% 678 482 41%
Software (e) 113 90 26% 391 273 43%
Service and other sales (f) 97 70 39% 219 201 9%



Total net sales $ 2,014 $ 1,545 30% $ 5,929 $ 4,492 32%


iPod sales accounted for $249 million + $73 million in music. Mac sales were $1.2 Billion. How are iPods the reason for their profits. These are net sales numbers not profit. I know they help but Apple is not riding on them for profits.


Also for those who think Apple is doing so poorly. I couldn't disagree more. What about the 90's when the economy was booming and they were losing tons of money. They still survived and now they are doing very well. You are saying they are dead? :confused:


What is negative about this?

CUPERTINO, California—July 14, 2004—Apple® today announced financial results for its fiscal 2004 third quarter ended June 26, 2004. For the quarter, the Company posted a net profit of $61 million, or $.16 per diluted share. These results compare to a net profit of $19 million, or $.05 per diluted share, in the year-ago quarter. Revenue for the quarter was $2.014 billion, up 30 percent from the year-ago quarter. Gross margin was 27.8 percent, up from 27.7 percent in the year-ago quarter. International sales accounted for 39 percent of the quarter’s revenue.


The quarter’s results include an after-tax restructuring charge of $6 million. Excluding this charge, the Company’s net profit for the quarter would have been $67 million, or $.17 per diluted share.


Apple shipped 876 thousand Macintosh® units and 860 thousand iPods during the quarter, representing a 14 percent increase in CPU units and a 183 percent increase in iPods over the year-ago quarter.


“It was an outstanding quarter—our highest third quarter revenue in eight years,” said Steve Jobs, Apple’s CEO. “Our Mac-based revenue grew a healthy 19 percent, and our music-based revenue grew an incredible 162 percent. We’ve got a strong product portfolio, with some amazing new additions coming later this year.”


“We were very pleased with our 30 percent year-over-year revenue growth and our operating margin expansion,” said Peter Oppenheimer, Apple’s CFO. “Looking ahead to the fourth quarter of fiscal 2004, we expect revenue of about $2.1 billion and earnings per diluted share of $.16 to $.17, including $.01 per diluted share in restructuring charges.”


Man Apple is doing horrible!:rolleyes:
This is another indicator of there poor performace:

http://cbs.marketwatch.com/tools/quotes/intchart.asp?symb=AAPL&siteid=mktw&time=8&freq=1&comp=&compidx=aaaaa%7E0&compind=&uf=0&ma=&maval=&lf=1&lf2=&lf3=&type=2&size=1&txtstyle=&style=&submitted=true&intflavor=basic&origurl=%2Ftools%2Fquotes%2Fintchart.asp:rolleyes:
 
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