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Why 4K mattered on ATV4...

Snoopy4

Snoopy4

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Dec 29, 2014
662
2,968
So today, I noticed for the first time that I can purchase (read upgrade) certain movies to UHD in my VUDU account for a nice hefty $29.95 a copy. Complete with ATMOS and Dolby Vision.

So far the three available in my collection are, and more will no doubt follow:

American Sniper
Edge of Tomorrow
Man of Steel

I'd imagine, going to UHD on AppleTV/iTunes will carry a similar cost per title given that Apple didn't just hand over HD copies of titles we already owned in SD when it launched HD. UHD is the future, so if I'm going to be spending any money on digital content I really don't want to double dip yet again. A handful of titles are a given, but it would have been nice to start collecting UHD going forward. I will not be buying any digital movie content until Apple catches up.

VUDU isn't messing around either. They launched with some legit titles:

http://www.vudu.com/movies/#featured/12434
 
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Snoopy4 said:
I'd imagine, going to UHD on AppleTV/iTunes will carry a similar cost per title given that Apple didn't just hand over HD copies of titles we already owned in SD when it launched HD.
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You are probably right but they did not change when going from 720p to 1080p. Just re-download.
 
d21mike said:
You are probably right but they did not change when going from 720p to 1080p. Just re-download.
Click to expand...

They upgraded everything in 720p to 1080p (both HD by definition), they did not upgrade 480 to 1080. I do not expect they will upgrade us to UHD. Even VUDU, who will let you get digital copies of your BD library for a couple of bones a title, will not let you get the UHD version. I think we're all in for the shakedown. Hence the desire to just go UHD from here on out.
 
Snoopy4 said:
UHD is the future
Click to expand...
With those prices it certainly won't. ;) It will be interesting to see the pricing of UHD Blu-rays when they go on sale in a few months. It seems the industry has learned nothing from Blu-ray, which after all these years still hasn't managed to surpass DVD and probably never will. And it's far from commanding the premium prices the studios were dreaming of; instead they are now often sold for less than $10 a few months after release ...
 
Rigby said:
With those prices it certainly won't. ;) It will be interesting to see the pricing of UHD Blu-rays when they go on sale in a few months. It seems the industry has learned nothing from Blu-ray, which after all these years still hasn't managed to surpass DVD and probably never will. And it's far from commanding the premium prices the studios were dreaming of; instead they are now often sold for less than $10 a few months after release ...
Click to expand...

It's no more than a BD was when they came out.
 
Snoopy4 said:
It's no more than a BD was when they came out.
Click to expand...
Precisely. And look how BD did when they came out. They are still not doing well even at the current much cheaper prices, and now the revenues are actually shrinking. The industry missed the window and as a result Blu-ray remains far behind expectations. And now they are asking people to pay $30 for just a digital copy ...
 
Rigby said:
Precisely. And look how BD did when they came out. They are still not doing well even at the current much cheaper prices, and now the revenues are actually shrinking. The industry missed the window and as a result Blu-ray remains far behind expectations. And now they are asking people to pay $30 for just a digital copy ...
Click to expand...

Not the same due to HD DVD. Far behind expectations? Oye. Where do people come up with this nonsense.

One reason the Internet is wonderful. Proof of stupid:

http://www.techradar.com/us/news/blu-ray/video/hd-dvd/blu-ray-will-be-dead-by-2012-here-s-why-464705

UHD bluray just started. Expect 100 titles this year. Without the competing format war, they're more bullish on titles as well.
 
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Snoopy4 said:
...it would have been nice to start collecting UHD going forward. I will not be buying any digital movie content until Apple catches up.
Click to expand...
It'll be even better once the dust settles between the various micro-UHD implementations -- the 2 streaming boxes that are out don't both take full advantage of UHD. For now, I'd rent 1080p titles but hold of on purchasing anything until the next generation of boxes are out. Who knows, the Roku 5 or AFTV3 may be better choices than a ATV5. For now, my ATV4 suits me fine -- I actually purchased all 3 of the new brand releases, returned the other 2 and kept the ATV4. The only thing I miss is the headphone jack of the Roku remote, with a couple sets of rechargeable batteries I didn't have to deal with Bluetooth headset batteries running out. My least favorite was the AFTV2 -- the homescreen was Amazon-world, I'd prefer it tucked away in an app.
 
Snoopy4 said:
Not the same due to HD DVD. Far behind expectations? Oye.
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Blu-ray (sadly) hasn't even managed to catch up to DVD, which shows that many people aren't willing to pay a premium for image quality. And UHD streams on Vudu will at least in the first few years barely if at all look better than Blu-ray. And for that people are supposed to pay double the price?
Where do people come up with this nonsense.
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Put down the rose-colored glasses. After almost 10 years, Blu-ray has about 30% market share of video disc sales in the US. In other major markets it's half that. It was supposed to be the successor to DVD and compensate the decline of DVD sales. It hasn't even come close to that and is now declining itself.
UHD bluray just started. Expect 100 titles this year. Without the competing format war, they're more bullish on titles as well.
Click to expand...
I'm sure there will be titles. But if they launch with ridiculous prices again, the format will never even develop any momentum and will remain a small niche format.
 
benjitek said:
It'll be even better once the dust settles between the various micro-UHD implementations -- the 2 streaming boxes that are out don't both take full advantage of UHD. For now, I'd rent 1080p titles but hold of on purchasing anything until the next generation of boxes are out. Who knows, the Roku 5 or AFTV3 may be better choices than a ATV5. For now, my ATV4 suits me fine -- I actually purchased all 3 of the new brand releases, returned the other 2 and kept the ATV4. The only thing I miss is the headphone jack of the Roku remote, with a couple sets of rechargeable batteries I didn't have to deal with Bluetooth headset batteries running out. My least favorite was the AFTV2 -- the homescreen was Amazon-world, I'd prefer it tucked away in an app.
Click to expand...

Yeah. It feels like Beta/VHS and BD/HDDVD all over again on the streaming side this time. Less complex, but damn, enough of this already. Fortunately most movies are fine in 1080p, there are a few that will be day one repurchases in UHD. H.265 will be a significant benefit for 1080p streaming likely catching up with BD. That and UHD is really the end of the line on all formats for the home so hopefully no more format wars. Even if you have a dedicated theater there's really no benefit above 4K even if you are sitting 10 feet from a 120" screen. Some epic films shot on 35 and 70 mm will be spectacular if they were taken care of. Some BD transfers have been absolute crap.
 
Rigby said:
Put down the rose-colored glasses. After almost 10 years, Blu-ray has about 30% market share of video disc sales in the US. In other major markets it's half that. It was supposed to be the successor to DVD and compensate the decline of DVD sales. It hasn't even come close to that and is now declining itself.
Click to expand...

BD was stuck in a format war for the first two years and pretty much every movie you'd want on a BD is out after 7 years time which is pretty damn good considering everything had to be remastered for it. Once DVD HD fell it was an avalanche. DVD is finally dead thanks to streaming the only mistake the studios made was not killing off when the BD/HDDVD war was over.
 
Snoopy4 said:
...there's really no benefit above 4K even if you are sitting 10 feet from a 120" screen...
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I dunno... every time I walk by the 4K TV's in Best Buy the drooling starts, once I reach the ones with curved screens I require a spit-bowl :confused:
 
benjitek said:
I dunno... every time I walk by the 4K TV's in Best Buy the drooling starts, once I reach the ones with curved screens I require a spit-bowl :confused:
Click to expand...

There's definitely a benefit to 4K, it's going above that that won't make much sense.
 
Snoopy4 said:
So today, I noticed for the first time that I can purchase (read upgrade) certain movies to UHD in my VUDU account for a nice hefty $29.95 a copy. Complete with ATMOS and Dolby Vision.
Click to expand...

Charging 30 bucks for upgrading to 4K is kind of snake-oil like. I'm almost certain the file *now* won't have bit rate it requires for the depth of true 4K. I'll part way with iTunes if it does just that.
Oh,.. And the part about "the future is 4K", have you ever heard about SACD or DVD-Audio? Where are they stand nowadays?
 
There is so much more than resolution especially when it comes to streaming.

If resolution is all that mattered then an iTunes 1080p movie would look like a BD.

I'm more excited about HEVC used with 1080p and increasing the quality without enormous file sizes. Specs aside I prefer encoding in 720p with higher qualities and ending up with a file that is similar in size that "looks" better then 1080p from online sources.
 
Snoopy4 said:
So today, I noticed for the first time that I can purchase (read upgrade) certain movies to UHD in my VUDU account for a nice hefty $29.95 a copy. Complete with ATMOS and Dolby Vision.

So far the three available in my collection are, and more will no doubt follow:

American Sniper
Edge of Tomorrow
Man of Steel

I'd imagine, going to UHD on AppleTV/iTunes will carry a similar cost per title given that Apple didn't just hand over HD copies of titles we already owned in SD when it launched HD. UHD is the future, so if I'm going to be spending any money on digital content I really don't want to double dip yet again. A handful of titles are a given, but it would have been nice to start collecting UHD going forward. I will not be buying any digital movie content until Apple catches up.

VUDU isn't messing around either. They launched with some legit titles:

http://www.vudu.com/movies/#featured/12434
Click to expand...
Aren't you making a huge leap here. Vudu.com may charge for converting video to 4K, but I am not aware of any other provider doing this. To play 4K from YouTube, all you need is a 4K-ready device even on the free version of YouTube. I subscribe to Amazon Prime and NetFlix. Amazon Prime does not charge a premium for 4K. I don't recall the service levels of NetFlix, but none approach the level that you claim Hulu is charging.

The bottom line is that Hulu.com charges the most of any streaming service for 4K. Why do you believe that Apple will model its 4K service after Hulu.com rather than Amazon Prime or one of the other services?
 
MisterMe said:
Aren't you making a huge leap here. Vudu.com may charge for converting video to 4K, but I am not aware of any other provider doing this. To play 4K from YouTube, all you need is a 4K-ready device even on the free version of YouTube. I subscribe to Amazon Prime and NetFlix. Amazon Prime does not charge a premium for 4K. I don't recall the service levels of NetFlix, but none approach the level that you claim Hulu is charging.

The bottom line is that Hulu.com charges the most of any streaming service for 4K. Why do you believe that Apple will model its 4K service after Hulu.com rather than Amazon Prime or one of the other services?
Click to expand...

If you want to own an HD version of an SD movie you own on iTunes, you have to pay full price to get the HD copy. No leap at all. UHD is not HD. An upgrade fee option would be nice, but something like this is likely studio driven so the quicker UHD comes available to buy the better.
 
Most people it seems don't know good from bad when it comes to movie playback (unless it is a blaring glitch). There are 4k TVs being sold presently at "reasonable" prices and people grab them up without any notion of what they are missing as compared to a higher end 4k TV. Obviously, there are some folks that do know the difference and as well are more sensitive to the differences.

Meanwhile, studios are doing their damn best to lock down (from pirating supposedly) hardware and software which creates a different set of issues for end user/customer. As well, they are intent on making us pay as many times as possible for the same movie title - DVD to Blue Ray or Blue Ray initial release to Blue Ray extended etc. As some coined the phrase - double and triple dipping. I expect to see more of this going on as they encourage us to do everything in "4K" quality in the next 5 years - purchases of both physical media and on line.

My technical beef with the entire "mess" created is that there is no standardization of quality of any format. I am sure many here can recall in pure DVD days that some movies looked far better than others when brought to DVD. Later, we saw the same with Blue Ray where some are more than "digital dumps" of the films and are mastered well for disc. I guess we can look forward to the same crap happening with some 4k given the actual conversion process, amount of compression for streaming (even with 265 vs 264) and the list goes on. We'll see new forms of 'dipping' going on as fun words like "re-mastered" or "extended" or ...

I don't buy DVDs. I buy Blue Ray discs as 1080p plays well on my TV and what drives me to a purchase is the movie itself, the quality of transfer and at times when a minor guilty pleasure type movies sits in the sale/discount bin (or on line such as Amazon). I don't consider streaming to be in this category and elsewhere have seen contrast and comparisons of Apple, Vudu, Amazon etc. of the same film. For now, Vudu appears to offer consistently better quality yet Apple and Amazon are not far behind and sometimes on a given movie title, surpass or match Vudu. The catch is, that there should be no difference other than each competing for our coins but alas, as long as each can provide whatever they want and people pay, we'll continue to see a slow pace to "quality" as people really don't fully demand it. - Just an opinion and observation.

Last - Apple's ATV is exactly the same as Kodak's day of selling instamatics. They offer a cheap viable vehicle to get you to buy their film. ATV is a front end vehicle to get people into Apple's buy/rent services and nothing more. The only catch is, so much more is going on line and finally they are playing catch up and depending on the Apple lemmings and the less informed to perpetuate the kingdom. (Yes there are those that are informed and prefer the Apple eco system and nothing but good thoughts and have them enjoy the services offered.) Apple will not really lead on the 4k revolution as it doesn't fit their market plan. ATV next generation will probably get 4k, tell us how great Apple is with 4k when for months on end there were other players that already had it - Amazon, Roku, Nvidia Shield etc. - nothing new here folks...let's move along.
 
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That's expensive. 4K films bought on VIMEO are £13 for titles from The Orchard Media. Just waiting for Apple to allow 4k on ATV now :)
 
Snoopy4 said:
DVD is finally dead thanks to streaming
Click to expand...
Oh it really isn't at all, not by a long chalk.
DVD sales still far outweigh Blu-ray sales even with streaming.
In the UK take Sky for example who offer a Buy & Keep service which you get a 1080i copy to watch over the net and the DVD copy of the film is what's sent out, no option for a Blu-ray if you prefer.
I know plenty of people that are just not interested in HD at all so will only ever buy DVD and others have only just bought a HDTV so the thought of a new 4K tv will be some way off in the distant future.
 
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-Gonzo- said:
So I take it each film is spread over 2 discs.
If that's the case then think I will definitely hold off from upgrading to UHD for the time being.
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Yeah that would be absolute crap if that were the case having to get up half way through the movie to swap disks but I would imagine 1 disc has the 1080p movie and the extras and the 2nd disc has the 4k movie by itself. 50gb is probably enough to fit 1 4k movie by itself.
 
4K can hold off for a while. I'm not ready for a tv upgrade.

Higher resolutions while impressive aren't what keeps a viewer watching. Computer games for example were far more addictive with lower quality graphics as they were more about game play than visuals. Same for tv/movies. A high quality 1080p tv with no or very thin bezel works just fine. Most tv's have terrible speakers and so they need to be coupled with a sound system.
 
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