Why Apple cannot replace Aqua in Leopard

[SpookTheHamster]

We at least need some consistency. I cannot stand the different UIs between Apple's own apps at the moment. I don't mind the "pro" apps looking different, that makes sense, but what's with having white, flat grey, brushed metal and whatever else for apps that are preinstalled?

 

[dllavaneras]

Exactly. Here's to a unified UI!

 

[superbovine]

I know a lot of people seem to think Aqua may be gone come Leopard, given it's 5 years old.

However, the FACT is Apple cannot replace Aqua without updating ALL of their applications individually. There are certain standard widgets that every application uses, scrollbars, pull down menus, check boxes etc etc. These could be updated quite easily and every app on your system that uses these widgets would show the changes.

The problem is a lot of apps use custom aqua widgets, these are not standard and have to be made specially, you'll see them in the resources folder inside each .app package.

To just give you an example, look in the resources folder of iDVD, there literally dozens and dozens of custom aqua widgets and interface elements. This is pretty much the same for every app, Mail, Safari, iWork, QT....

If Apple wanted to replace aqua they'd have to completely re-do all these custom widgets for each of their applications, not to mention all the 3rd part developers who also use custom aqua widgets.

On top of this, there's the whole Blue/Graphite thing, a lot of apps provide widgets for each style and this is coded into the application.

Therefore, even if Apple wanted to replace Aqua, they couldn't. You'd still have bits of aqua scattered throughout your system, meaning things could look very very untidy.

http://www.applegazette.com/mac/rumor-aqua-to-be-replaced-with-illuminous/

 

[SMM]

...because if they don't I will FREEK OUT AND ADMIT MYSELF TO THE NEAREST INSANE ASSYLUM! Aqua is driving me NUTS - it's SO 2001-ish. When I think about how good the UI **COULD** be! Change the UI, Apple! Change it NOW! If Microsoft can do it so can you!

If Apple's UI is having that much impact on your sanity, you are headed for the funny farm regardless. If you are taking something, take more. If not, consider starting.

 

[Macmadant]

Everyone keeps saying aqua is 5 years old, the fact is, it isn't, it has changed dramatically from 10.0 now we have the unified aqua look which is around a year old it think, then after that was the brushed metal which is around 2 years old, aqua has evolved over the past 5 years it hasn't stayed the same

 

[Macmadant]

re-writing code from scratch/editing isn't something new for apple, nor are they afraid to take on such huge tasks ..

when they changed over to intel, from ppc they had to port all of macintosh operating system and millions of lines were re-written ..

as for third party softs, they can always adopt the same policy as rosetta .. maybe

it would be quite foolish to launch os 10.5 in 2007 with UI from mesolithic period .. look at vista .. ms has put so much into their UI .. eyecandy sells!! < thats a fact.

actually they never re-wrote OSX to run on Intel, it was done from the very beginning as a 'just in case'

 

[mark88]

Exactly. They've done it once, they'll do it again. (As you've just said, and invalidating your own point)

You obviously didn't read my post.

OS 9 and 10 are totally different, it's not like come 10.5 all 10.4 applications will stop working, as was the case with OS 9 and X.

You cannot compare at all the transition from OS 9 --> OS X to the transition between 10.4 and 10.5.

 

[mark88]

Aqua is already on its way out, or at least how we know it. Just look at iTunes 7. Apart from the scroll bar, what's "traditional" Aqua about it?

iTunes 7 still has plenty of Aqua scattered around.

EQ
Get info
Prefs
All prompts
Smart Playlists etc..

 

[mark88]

Everyone keeps saying aqua is 5 years old, the fact is, it isn't, it has changed dramatically from 10.0 now we have the unified aqua look which is around a year old it think, then after that was the brushed metal which is around 2 years old, aqua has evolved over the past 5 years it hasn't stayed the same

I'm mainly refering to the bits that define aqua most, IMO that's the blue and graphite elements which has remained pretty much the same throughout OS X. A scrollbar in Tiger looks exactly the same as it did in 10.0.

To give you an idea what I'm refering to in my OP check the following attachments. These are custom aqua widgets that are specific to the app they are in, and there are lots of them throughout every app you use.

In order to get an aqua-less Leopard Apple would have to re-do all these custom widgets for all their apps, including those that do not ship with Leopard and release them on the same day as Leopard. Secondly 3rd party developers would have to go through their apps and remove aqua totally from their apps.

And regarding that last point, if a developer does do that. Then that means his application will not look right in 10.4 as he has just removed the aqua elements from it. Those elements that fit 10.4 but won't fit the new UI in 10.5

I'm telling ya, this is really really a problem.

 

[apfhex]

we have the unified aqua look which is around a year old it think, then after that was the brushed metal which is around 2 years old, aqua has evolved over the past 5 years it hasn't stayed the same

Brushed Metal is older than Aqua (publicly at least). It appeared in QuickTime 4 in 1999. There are some huge differences in Aqua between 10.0 and 10.4, although the basic looks are the same, and some elements like the scroll bars are identical.

I don't think we'll see anything as dramatically different as say XP's Luna to Vista's Aero, but we're definitely going to see things head in the direction of iTunes 7 (I don't see why else its interface would have changed so much) and hopefully the elimination of Brushed Metal. Especially given the look of the iPhone's interface, which is highly glossy and includes a lot of the same graphite-ish colors that iTunes 7 has.

 

[mark88]

Brushed Metal is older than Aqua (publicly at least). It appeared in QuickTime 4 in 1999. There are some huge differences in Aqua between 10.0 and 10.4, although the basic looks are the same, and some elements like the scroll bars are identical.

I don't think we'll see anything as dramatically different as say XP's Luna to Vista's Aero, but we're definitely going to see things head in the direction of iTunes 7 (I don't see why else its interface would have changed so much) and hopefully the elimination of Brushed Metal.

For a while now iTunes has always been the odd one out regarding interface styles. It introduced polished metal/dark plastic whatever you want to call it in version 5.

I think anybody expecting a massive overhaul of the interface will be really dissapointed. You have all these interface styles already in use. It's impossible for Apple to unify them in one swoop.

I think the changes will be minor, pinstripe will be totally gone, that's not a big deal and I reckon they'll introduce more dashboard style graphics throughout(see the new toolbar button in safari).

 

[iJawn108]

I'm thinking it will be similar colours to the iPhone and iTunes 7. Notice the Gunmetal scroll bar? and deep navy blue? in iTunes. Notice the navy blue of the iPhone safari? A big change will be the icons, they will be like adobes new ones, just you wait and see.

 

[mark88]

A big change will be the icons, they will be like adobes new ones, just you wait and see.

lol, can you imagine a dock full of adobe icons?

I think they'll update some icons though, some of them are looking kinda dull for sure.

 

[iJawn108]

it will be like a lego snake swollowing its prey. ;P

 

[iShak]

actually they never re-wrote OSX to run on Intel, it was done from the very beginning as a 'just in case'

... didnt knew that!!! i am pretty sure i've heard steve say that the migration from PPC to intel aint that simple, millions of lines of code had to be 're-written' .. cuz this different atchitecture does require a different code (unless whole of mac runs on rosetta)

strange that no one noticed dormant intel code in pre-intel macintosh applications/OS

 

[xUKHCx]

... didnt knew that!!! i am pretty sure i've heard steve say that the migration from PPC to intel aint that simple, millions of lines of code had to be 're-written' .. cuz this different atchitecture does require a different code (unless whole of mac runs on rosetta)

strange that no one noticed dormant intel code in pre-intel macintosh applications/OS

They were written con-currently as two separate versions, the Intel version was never released to the public before the switch was made.

In regards to the Aqua widgets replacement, please take that i know pretty much nothing about building an interface for an application into consideration when i suggest a possible solution.

Could apple build in to Interface Builder (an application that builds interfaces) a way of making "Universal" Binaries for the interface. So that on 10.4 a developers app will be aqua and in 10.5 it will be Luminous or whatever.

 

[ghall]

Could apple build in to Interface Builder (an application that builds interfaces) a way of making "Universal" Binaries for the interface. So that on 10.4 a developers app will be aqua and in 10.5 it will be Luminous or whatever.

That seems like a brilliant idea. It sounds do-able to me. The only issue I see is I doubt most developers will be happy about it. More work for them.

 

[oceanmonster]

That seems like a brilliant idea. It sounds do-able to me. The only issue I see is I doubt most developers will be happy about it. More work for them.

True developers would be unhappy to change their applications interface. But, if they didn't update it users would no longer want to that product because it does not fit the OS

 

[iancapable]

I know a lot of people seem to think Aqua may be gone come Leopard, given it's 5 years old.

However, the FACT is Apple cannot replace Aqua without updating ALL of their applications individually. There are certain standard widgets that every application uses, scrollbars, pull down menus, check boxes etc etc. These could be updated quite easily and every app on your system that uses these widgets would show the changes.

The problem is a lot of apps use custom aqua widgets, these are not standard and have to be made specially, you'll see them in the resources folder inside each .app package.

To just give you an example, look in the resources folder of iDVD, there literally dozens and dozens of custom aqua widgets and interface elements. This is pretty much the same for every app, Mail, Safari, iWork, QT....

If Apple wanted to replace aqua they'd have to completely re-do all these custom widgets for each of their applications, not to mention all the 3rd part developers who also use custom aqua widgets.

On top of this, there's the whole Blue/Graphite thing, a lot of apps provide widgets for each style and this is coded into the application.

Therefore, even if Apple wanted to replace Aqua, they couldn't. You'd still have bits of aqua scattered throughout your system, meaning things could look very very untidy.

First off... As a programmer I can happily say that apple can replace aqua easily enough. The basic raw library for Aqua is in OSX, it's not separately included in each and every application.

Custom widgets are generally built from and extended from other widgets, only a fool would design a widget by actually drawing it.

Standard programming guidelines means that you can change the themes or look and feel of an interface quite easily. This is why shapeshifter does a good job at theming OSX.

Apple can create a theme to replace Aqua and that should be enough for an interface face lift.

Vista for example is just another skin, maybe only has a couple changes to the actual UI.

At the end of the day Aqua is a skin, just like Luna in XP is a skin, it can be replaced.

 

[Kardashian]

You obviously didn't read my post.

OS 9 and 10 are totally different, it's not like come 10.5 all 10.4 applications will stop working, as was the case with OS 9 and X.

You cannot compare at all the transition from OS 9 --> OS X to the transition between 10.4 and 10.5.

Your making out changing the colour scheme of OSX as being ''impossible'' to change - my point was if they could totally re-work and re-design an operating system, which runs on 2 types of architechture in the time they did - I'm sure they can transistion from one 'grade' of operating system to the next.

Don't be so over dramatic.

Apple aren't 3 guys working in a garage - they do actually have people paid to work around the clock to do this, y'know? There's probably 3 or 4 'designs' for the Leopard theme in the works.

Think Windows 95 > 98 > XP > Vista. Except ours will be on time and actually work.

 

[elppa]

Therefore, even if Apple wanted to replace Aqua, they couldn't. You'd still have bits of aqua scattered throughout your system, meaning things could look very very untidy.

For a while, but it wouldn't take long to change.

Plus Apple have their own internal software for rapidly producing all the UI elements they need, they don't just sit their with Photoshop and do it.

It's really not as big a deal as you are making out.

 

[Swarmlord]

I don't understand what people find "old" in Aqua. It works, it's crisp and clean and still looks modern. Do we really need change for change's sake?

 

[dalvin200]

But, if they didn't update it users would no longer want to that product because it does not fit the OS

But surely, functionality of an app >= how good an app looks

 

[whooleytoo]

Not really anything. The jelly bean scroll bars have gotten a bit...old.

I guess it's different strokes for different folks, I thought the new iTunes looked horrible - back to bland.

I really wish
- would have just one window style in 10.5 (or, at least one type of appearance per window type, for instance palette windows might be different from normal, document windows).

- Provide the option to change skins/themes, so if we want all the 10.5 goodies, we're not all forced to use 's idea of what looks good for the next couple of years

 

[compuwar]

They were written con-currently as two separate versions, the Intel version was never released to the public before the switch was made.

The microkernel, BSD personality layer and command line tools were indeed released in Open Darwin. Only the UI layer and applications were kept inside Apple.