Why buy a Mac?

[Sehnsucht]

The funny part is we all laugh at the BSOD, but at least that thing tells us what went wrong. On OS X, all we get is this grey thing that says "Restart" or the computer just locks up. All confusion, no error messages.

The BSOD doesn't always tell me what went wrong, or which file/driver is to blame. And when it does, it's aways ridiculously cryptic.

I have only ever seen an OS X kernel panic as a screenshot, never in person.

When a PC that I'm forced to work on crashes, I'm never in the mood to care or notice which driver is causing the problem, I'm just UNBELIEVABLY PISSED that my unsaved Photoshop project is now gone.

A week ago, I was going on a little tour around the campuses of several prospective colleges, and stepped into a room full of 1-something-GHz PPC iMacs, used by their photography classes. Not only did the one I used boot up just as quickly as my 2.93 GHz MacBook Pro, but 32-bit Photoshop on the old iMacs was a hell of a lot more stable than 64-bit Photoshop on the horrendous Dell systems I'm stuck with at school.

 

[LagunaSol]

The BSOD doesn't always tell me what went wrong, or which file/driver is to blame. And when it does, it's aways ridiculously cryptic.

BSOD aside, Windows is the King of cryptic messages. And recently I got to modify a file in the registry just to get clip art thumbnails in PowerPoint to appear. The fix was explained on Microsoft's support site. USER FRIENDLY!!!

I've used both Macs and Windows machines for many years and while both have their problems, Windows machines rule the roost for problems that fall into the WTF? category.

It's not even a close contest.

 

[throttlemeister]

Funny how I could run Windows literally for years and never ever get spyware, nor viruses, despite visiting some questionable sites and downloading "try before you buy" software.

Malware and virus problems are caused by PICNIC errors; people that click on everything without thinking. If you use your brain the way God intended it, you will have no problems avoiding nasty stuff that may destroy or slow your computer down. Just because a system is potentially vulnerable to certain threats does not mean it it will need to get them.

(PICNIC: Problem In Chair, Not In Computer)

 

[wzlszl]

If you choose in the end to buy the Windows machine, you absolutely must wait for Windows 7. I have Vista right now, and it is a great deal of pain to deal with. It is a complete hardware hog; uses up a huge space on the hard drive and tons of space of RAM as well.

That being said, if you choose to buy Mac OS X, which is overall the better machine, wait for Snow Leopard. It should be announced at WWDC in a week.

As others mentioned, if you have that extra wad of cash, get the Mac. The software and computer just work seemlesly together and is so convenient to use. However, Windows 7 is seeing lots of great/needed changes which will make Windows a much more buyable system. I have used one of the original betas and was quite pleased with the performance.

 

[Sehnsucht]

Malware and virus problems are caused by PICNIC errors; people that click on everything without thinking. If you use your brain the way God intended it, you will have no problems avoiding nasty stuff that may destroy or slow your computer down. Just because a system is potentially vulnerable to certain threats does not mean it it will need to get them.

(PICNIC: Problem In Chair, Not In Computer)

We *ain't* talking about viruses and malware. We *is* talking about Windows Registry Hell and cryptic, raaaaaaaandom crashes and errors. Such as when I am working in Photoshop and it decides to go down epically in BSOD glory.

Windows knows how to start plenty of s**t on its own without any help from malware. Or the user.

 

[throttlemeister]

We were above (I was away from my desk for a few while some more replies were typed and I was typing mine).

BSOD's are typically caused by hardware and/or driver problems. Most notably memory modules and graphics cards. Photoshop does not cause BSOD's and Windows itself does not crap out either (anymore). If you experience a BSOD on regular basis, something is wrong with your computer. Something that would make OSX crap itself too with the infamous multilingual reboot message aka kernel panic. Don't blame Windows for faulty hardware (or drivers).

It is soo funny to see people spend thousands on a Mac and hail its quality, yet typically spend minimal budget on a Windows box and are complain it craps out. The old adage "you get what you pay for" holds very, very true with computer equipment. Just because Windows supposedly runs fine on everything from a nickel&dime no-name components build computer to a highend tier 1 brand box does not mean it actually does. If you buy crap hardware, don't blame the software.

 

[windywoo]

Why, doesn't Windows need codecs? And, I think QuickTime is better than Media Player. Anyway, VLC exists for both.

Only untidy users? I'm sorry if I don't want to keep 10 Windows in my desktop, and I want to organize them into different desktops. Your statement is very stupid. Multiple desktops are quite useful when you deal with a lot of apps. Linux had them for ages. OS X does. Windows? No.

A waste? Average users like iLife. It's a great suite IMO. Better than the copycrap that Windows offers.

...and for graphic designers, musicians, video editors...they mostly chose Macs.

My post completely went over your head, you took nearly the opposite meaning from everything I said. I will address one point. If multiple desktops are so wonderful why did it take so long for Macs to catch up? Only Leopard supports them. Were Mac users struggling for all those years before Leopard? Do Mac users who can't run Leopard struggle now?

Anyone who needs lots of windows open on a regular basis gets themselves a second monitor, something you can do on Windows and Macs.

And yes, all those stories you hear about people getting viruses (even the banks and so on) are because people are stupid. Too stupid to apply patches, too stupid to update antivirus. If solutions exist to Windows problems, and people ignore them, is that Windows fault? If Apple had 90% of the market and the resulting attention, how many security flaws would then come to light in OSX? How many patches would Mac users then have to suffer?

Mac users are in no position to judge Windows faults because the difference in user base is so huge. Windows has to support a far greater range of hardware and devices and support a much larger number of idiots. Apple don't even go there, and so long as they hide behind their smaller market share and controlled hardware they will remain niche. Apple needs Windows, because without Windows they don't have anyone to insult in their adverts. Windows supports the bulk of the market, without whom there could be no "switchers". Apple feeds off the negativity created by a large portion of the user base who are more willing to remain ignorant of the technology they use on a daily basis than actually learn about how it works.

Without Windows, who would have the target on their arse?

 

[EmperorDarius]

My post completely went over your head, you took nearly the opposite meaning from everything I said. I will address one point. If multiple desktops are so wonderful why did it take so long for Macs to catch up? Only Leopard supports them. Were Mac users struggling for all those years before Leopard? Do Mac users who can't run Leopard struggle now?

What matters it that Leopard has it and Windows doesn't.

Anyone who needs lots of windows open on a regular basis gets themselves a second monitor, something you can do on Windows and Macs.

What If I don't want to spend money for a second monitor?

And yes, all those stories you hear about people getting viruses (even the banks and so on) are because people are stupid. Too stupid to apply patches, too stupid to update antivirus. If solutions exist to Windows problems, and people ignore them, is that Windows fault? If Apple had 90% of the market and the resulting attention, how many security flaws would then come to light in OSX? How many patches would Mac users then have to suffer?

Even with a fully patched system and updated antivirus, the risk is still very high. You must use several layers of security, which will cause nothing but slowdown and popups, to achieve a somewhat decent level of safety. I don't care about the Market share, and still little would change if OS X would be used by 90% of the world. It would still be better than Windows in terms of securiy.

Mac users are in no position to judge Windows faults because the difference in user base is so huge. Windows has to support a far greater range of hardware and devices and support a much larger number of idiots. Apple don't even go there, and so long as they hide behind their smaller market share and controlled hardware they will remain niche. Apple needs Windows, because without Windows they don't have anyone to insult in their adverts. Windows supports the bulk of the market, without whom there could be no "switchers". Apple feeds off the negativity created by a large portion of the user base who are more willing to remain ignorant of the technology they use on a daily basis than actually learn about how it works.

The user. The user. So you mean, you must be stupid to have problems on Windows? I'm sorry, but that's BS. Sure being idiot helps, but that doesn't change the fact that Windows is horrible. The OS is crap. No matter how much you know how to use it. The real ignorants are the ones who can't realize that.

Without Windows, who would have the target on their arse?

Without Windows, there would be no need to target anyone.

 

[healeydave]

I'm gonna add one thing which people often don't consider.

TCO (Total Cost of Ownership)

The Mac might cost a similar amount to a higher spec'ed PC, but because of the nature of the beast (PC's being more numerous), the value of the PC will plummet compared to the iMac.

I moved to Mac's a few years ago and I have two beautiful 24" iMacs in my home. One of my friends who let's say likes to keep a tight rein on his purse strings, decided he wanted to go the Mac route too after seeing how nice my setup was.

After both of us scouring eBay for some weeks, trying to find him a similar 24" iMac, we realised my iMac (that was a couple of years old) was trading for only £200 -£300 less than I paid, where-as his PC which was also only 2 years old, originally cost £700 and he did in the end struggle to get £170 for it!
This wasn't a consideration when I went the Mac route, I never considered TCO but I've always been used to my PC's being virtually worthless when I have wanted to upgrade over the years, so this was a pleasant surprise for me too. It did however add another tick to my prudent friends list that he was making the right decision!

Aside from that, I would just like to add that with the bluetooth keyboard & mouse, I still think my alloy 24" iMac looks so tidy & gorgeous, I would never want to go back to the PC tin can days (as I call them) with all that ugly cabling and separate components.

I have loads of stuff installed on my Mac and it never seems to suffer from any slow down or problems that one guy on the first page of this thread mentioned, I think he needs to check for a fault or memory issue because I moved from Tiger to Leopard on this machine too and its been rock solid with no performance degradation (that used to plague my windows machines back in the day).

 

[LagunaSol]

I'm gonna add one thing which people often don't consider.

TCO (Total Cost of Ownership)

Amen. Here's a classic computer to car analogy.

Years ago a buddy of mine was torn between buying a new Accord or a Daewoo (whatever the Accord equivalent was). He could get a fully loaded Daewoo for $5k less than the Accord. He went with the Daewoo.

A couple of years went by and he wanted to trade the Daewoo. Problem was, Daewoo had folded up here in the U.S. The dealer gave him like $1,500 for his trade. Had he bought the Accord, it would have been worth $15,000+. So much for that $5k upfront savings, eh?

This is an extreme example, but even if Daewoo hadn't folded, the resale on the Accord would have been far more than his initial $5k savings.

I've never had a problem selling my Macs, and I'm usually surprised by how much people will pay for them. Contrast that with a typical PC, which has almost no resale value the moment you open the box (unless you have something with Mac-like brand/model cachet, like a ThinkPad).

 

[opinioncircle]

We *ain't* talking about viruses and malware. We *is* talking about Windows Registry Hell and cryptic, raaaaaaaandom crashes and errors. Such as when I am working in Photoshop and it decides to go down epically in BSOD glory.

Windows knows how to start plenty of s**t on its own without any help from malware. Or the user.

I really don't know how you could get a BSOD in Photoshop. The only time I've experienced BSODs is when I was doing BS on my computer, with pirated software. If you use common sense AND get legal software, I don't see how could a reasonable person get BSODs.
I've used OSX only like once, so I can't compare, but Windows isn't the plague everybody's trying to make it look like. It's just that some people are too dumb to actually use common sense when they're using their computers (and I'm not talking about you by the way).
I do agree with the registry thing, but if you're a reasonable person, you don't mess with the registry, period.

 

[LagunaSol]

Mac users are in no position to judge Windows faults because the difference in user base is so huge. Windows has to support a far greater range of hardware and devices and support a much larger number of idiots.

In the interest of this particular discussion topic, WHO CARES??? I don't care why Windows is a mess, I only care that it is. And if the Windows user base is populated by idiots, as you claim, that's a Microsoft problem. Not an Apple problem. Not my problem.

Apple needs Windows, because without Windows they don't have anyone to insult in their adverts. Windows supports the bulk of the market, without whom there could be no "switchers".

I guess every company relies on a competitor with a crappier product.

Apple feeds off the negativity created by a large portion of the user base who are more willing to remain ignorant of the technology they use on a daily basis than actually learn about how it works.

Ignorant??? News flash: most Mac users have used or do use Windows on a regular basis. 99% of Windows users, on the other hand, know nothing about Macs - aside from the ignorant chestnuts they hear from their Windows-using friends or Windows-based tech punditry.

Ignorant indeed.

BTW, I've been using Windows 40+ hours a week since 1993. I know Windows sucks from personal experience. It should not be my job as a user to learn how to edit files in the Registry to get PowerPoint to show my clipart thumbnails. Period.

Hardcore Windows users/Microsoft apologists seem to wear their understanding of their cumbersome OS as a badge of honor. Hilarious. Again, when things go wrong, blame the user. It's the Microsoft way.

Ignorant. Sheesh.

Without Windows, who would have the target on their arse?

Hey, something to like about Windows! Thank you Microsoft, for my stress-free Mac computing experience!

 

[neiltc13]

I still don't understand this virus/malware/spooky software argument. I'm sitting here using Windows right now, no security beyond the standard firewall that ships with the OS and I'm having no problems. I've never been the victim of identity theft or credit card fraud, so there are definitely no keyloggers on my machine. If there is something nasty on my machine it definitely isn't running. A quick scan of Task Manager proved that.

I think a lot of you who are criticising Windows need to go back and use it again. Use the current versions of Windows XP, Vista or 7 and install them cleanly on your machine. Don't pollute it with antivirus or firewalls or antispyware software and just install the software you want to actually use. I guarantee you the experience won't be any worse than OS X - just different.

 

[windywoo]

What matters it that Leopard has it and Windows doesn't.

What If I don't want to spend money for a second monitor?

Without Windows, there would be no need to target anyone.

90% of the PC market are using Windows and don't seem to miss it. If you really, really do need lots of windows open then its your job and the second monitor will pay for itself more than any virtual desktops.

The last point is just unbelievably naive.

@LagunaSol, Apple aren't stepping up to provide the computer needs for the majority of users, so why slag Microsoft when they do?

 

[Sehnsucht]

I really don't know how you could get a BSOD in Photoshop. The only time I've experienced BSODs is when I was doing BS on my computer, with pirated software. If you use common sense AND get legal software, I don't see how could a reasonable person get BSODs.
I've used OSX only like once, so I can't compare, but Windows isn't the plague everybody's trying to make it look like. It's just that some people are too dumb to actually use common sense when they're using their computers (and I'm not talking about you by the way).
I do agree with the registry thing, but if you're a reasonable person, you don't mess with the registry, period.

The systems in question are the Dell boxes at my school. The Adobe software suite is licensed and legal, of course...and as for drivers, the only devices connected to them AFAIK are our Wacom tablets. I honestly don't know why on earth it happens, either...but it does.

Not to mention that XP/Vista are unusable except on "epic hardware specs" as someone put it. Sure, I can see why the esteemed AidenShaw with his 256-core blade servers, with a half-terabyte of RAM must always think to himself, "Damn, I'm good!" But for us mere mortals stuck on Earth with dual-core Pentium Dell Optiplexes, Windows sucks, and is unusable. The fact remains.

 

[Prenvo]

Hopefully this is kinda un-biased, even though I'm pretty-much an Apple fanboy now:

I personally believe that you have to be some sort of developer or script-kiddie to come to the conclusion that Windows is awful: people who don't know/understand things like the registry tend to think that Windows is awesome. A great Windows developer friend of mine actually thinks Windows is the best thing ever (even when he sees all the odd things I used to point out daily), so my little theory clearly isn't true for everybody.

My main "hate" for Microsoft is just their apparent inconsistency when it comes to anything they make or do: Apple may well be unbelievably inconsistent too, but that's not my impression from getting my Mac and iPhone last October.

I've only ever seen a BSOD once and that was a driver and nothing to do with Windows itself - I think the whole BSOD argument is a load of BS.

I also believe that the argument regarding Microsoft having to do a ton more work to support the multitude of hardware is also almost worthless: obviously - yes - Apple do have everything pretty easy because they get to control everything in their hardware, but it's the manufacturers themselves that make the drivers for Windows, not Microsoft.

When recommending IT to friends and family: if they had the cash, I'd obviously recommend a Mac (be it a desktop or notebook), but - if they didn't - I have almost nothing against desktop PCs running OS X: other than the missing communication side of things ("iSight" and microphone), I don't feel there's too much innovation on Apple's front - with notebooks, on the other hand, I would still push for a unibody MacBook (even if it meant spending a bit more) as I feel that it has a ton of edge over the competition (features like the trackpad), but not the polycarbonate MacBook (a non-Apple notebook would be almost as good in my opinion).

Everything in life seems to be based on comparisons and I think I'd probably still be happily (!) using Windows right now if I hadn't played with a Mac and been shown some of OS X's nice features.

I realise this is an uber long post, but I thought I'd give my two cents and see what everybody thinks

P.S. Windows for leet gamers. Enough said.

P.S.2. I think Apple's "we don't get viruses" stuff is stupid and should be toned down: it's possible. Plus what the hell is up with "PC" being the new buzzword for "Windows" thanks to the "Get a Mac" adverts. The Microsoft adverts with tiny kids doing all sorts of crazy stuff are stupid too. </rant>

P.S.3. I was a Windows developer for a few years and - IMHO - the .NET framework on Windows is urh. Seriously, urh. Random: I still feel the enter key should launch whatever is selected in OS X, not cmd + O.

 

[LagunaSol]

I still don't understand this virus/malware/spooky software argument.

Really? Do you ever read the news?

I don't have Windows virus issues either. I use Windows at home on my Mac using Fusion, but I don't do online stuff (except for gaming). And my work laptop is so locked down I can't even change my desktop wallpaper, let alone pick up any spyware (though we have had virus issues).

But just because I'm not having problems doesn't mean there aren't any.

You don't know anyone who has been hit with a virus or spyware? You haven't had to clean spyware from anyone's computer? You should have seen my uncle's Dell 2 months after I set it up for him - so buggered up I had to wipe it clean and start anew. Yep, it was his daughters downloading songs from LimeWire. Next thing he knows, he has porn spam popping up all over the screen constantly. Ah, those idiot Windows users again!

It happens. If it didn't happen, people wouldn't be throwing up their hands in despair and heading to the Apple Store to check out the competitor's offerings.

I no longer do free spyware removal for friends and relatives. Let them wallow in their misery - or buy a Mac. I'm not spending my time providing Windows tech support for them any longer.

I think a lot of you who are criticising Windows need to go back and use it again. Use the current versions of Windows XP, Vista or 7 and install them cleanly on your machine. Don't pollute it with antivirus or firewalls or antispyware software and just install the software you want to actually use. I guarantee you the experience won't be any worse than OS X - just different.

Using XP SP2 right now. I could write a book on the things about this OS that frustrate me. Does it have some aspects that I like better than OS X? Sure. But overall it is, using a Jobs-ism, a big bag of hurt.

Vista: never tried it, never will. If the most apologetic of Windows users had little good to say about it, I knew to steer clear.

Windows 7 RC: on my Mac as a virtual appliance right now. Frankly, I don't understand the hype (Maybe "Less sucky than before?"). I think Windows users are so beleaguered these days they'll accept anything as their computing salvation.

OS X is still better than them all, IMO. Looking forward to Snow Leopard.

 

[patrick0brien]

design doesn't get the job done, the specs do.

-UglyLittleSpud

As a man who lives in the world of consulting, I simply say this: Design is equally important as specs. In my professional experience, the best solutions it's design that drives the specs.

For example, in a well-run project, one gets the functional requirements first, then those are vetted to technical requirements, each tied back to the functional that originally drove it. This way, you don't have a functional that is missed, and don't have a bit of technical unused, or worse, taking resources unnecessarily.

Design is more that pretty pictures, or a piece of brushed aluminum. Sure Apple has whimsy, and do flourish a little, but if one looks deeper, there are aspects to the OS, the Hardware, the workflow that are extremely well designed, and they have the unique advantage of making it all, so the user gets a very high-quality experience throughout the lifetime of the product.

Design can be broken down this way, a car analogy (sorry):
How close is the button to your hand?
How many times do you have to push the button to get what you want?
Is what you get really what you need?
How many times did you have to take your eyes off the road to do it?
How much gas (e.g. money/time) did you burn to meet your goal?
How much thought went in to finding what you were after?
Your car may be capable of burning Hydrogen in addition to Gasoline, but how often do you really get to do that? And you paid what for the feature?

A note on virii, trojans, malware. Let's not confuse attack, with breach.

 

[throttlemeister]

Gawd, the blatantly ignorant fanboyism of some here really make my toes curl.

I do wonder, why do people that are too stupid to program a VCR even bother to get a computer. And why are they blaming the manufacturers when they know they are incapable of operating one.

I guess that is the biggest problem in todays society: nobody takes responsibility for their own actions anymore. It is always somebody else's fault, never ever their own.

Just because everybody can pay for a computer, does not mean everybody should own one.

 

[patrick0brien]

...nobody takes responsibility for their own actions anymore...

-throttlemeister

F***in' A!

 

[Burning Radio]

I do wonder, why do people that are too stupid to program a VCR even bother to get a computer. And why are they blaming the manufacturers when they know they are incapable of operating one.

I guess that is the biggest problem in todays society: nobody takes responsibility for their own actions anymore. It is always somebody else's fault, never ever their own.

Just because everybody can pay for a computer, does not mean everybody should own one.

+100 AMEN!

 

[healeydave]

I no longer do free spyware removal for friends and relatives. Let them wallow in their misery - or buy a Mac. I'm not spending my time providing Windows tech support for them any longer.

Me neither, well if I'm honest, I will still help out desperate friends, but I have been discretely dropping hints to people for the last two years that I no longer use and have no wish to use Windows in the vein hope that it will sink in to their subconscious.

I'm not here to start a PC vs Mac thread which always happens, in fact has already happened (and this a Mac forum too) :-(

I started in IT when Microsoft's only product was MS-DOS, I have lived through the whole PC phenomena and as much as I regret it now, have been personally responsible for helping the growth of MS & Windows in companies over the years. I'm not some uniformed user who only has experience of one platform, frankly moving to the Mac platform & OSX has made using a computer enjoyable again and has been a breath of fresh air.

The famous quote "People that are serious about their software should make their own hardware" epitomizes what I like about Apple and why I grew to hate PC's over the years. I got fed up of every man and his dog in the far east making component parts throwing them all together in a tin can, calling it a PC and keeping their fingers crossed all the drivers would all work together in perfect harmony. Some people like that and that's fine, they should stick with PC's and they will be happy, they would probably be un-suited to the Apple way.

There's no wrong or right answer here people, the different methodologies Apple and Microsoft follow will suit different types of people, but those that critisise Apple just because they are a PC owner are never going to convince anyone.

Its peoples nature to defend what they have and criticise what they don't have, not keeping an open mind and educating ones self to options in life will just be doing yourself an injustice!

 

[Annngel]

I bought a mac because it's prettiest computer i've seen!

I'll be honest.

I never tried using a mac before.
I see them all the time on the internet and i'm like "Ohh mine they're so gorgeous."

Tell mummy to order one.

When i turned it on for the first time, i didn't know how to install MSN messenger

Anyway, the point is that, they're the nicest computer ever made to match me

 

[gctwnl]

Then again, if they bring out a blu-ray enabled, upgradeable tower asap this could all change!

I am reminded of a discussion I read earlier about the limited use of BluRay in a computer setup due to DRM-issues. I am uncertain what the exact situation was, but it may have been that you cannot display BluRay movies on your external screen unless the screen is connected through HDMI (or the screen is the screen of an all-in-one) so no unprotected data leaks from the system.

BluRay in a computer sounds great on paper, but if it only displays on HDMI out and your monitor is DVI, then its use is not what you expect from it. If you need to buy a HDMI monitor to make use of the BluRay, the price comparison changes.

The legal complexities of BluRay is what is keeping Apple back as I have heard.

 

[the vj]

I'm sure this has been discussed many times before, but right now I'm torn between two systems -

Refurb 24'' iMac, 2.8, 2GB Ram, 320GB, Superdrive, 2600 Pro - £949

Self-build PC, Q6600, 8GB Ram, Radeon 4850, 1TB Hard Drive, Blu-Ray writer, 23'' Full HD monitor - £949

Well...

1. I wouldn't buy an iMac for 3D rendering, I am using a Mac Pro for Lightwave and Cinema4D.

2. Neither PC or Mac need more than 4.5GB of ram, I have my Mac Pro with 10GB and it works as good as when it had 2GB. The reason is that if you work 3D you are already using all the processors so: why having more ram to do more stuff if the processors are already busy? The computer get terrible slow any way.

3. 1TB hard drive or 320GB... If you are going to render you will need an extra hard drive just for that so the internal hard drive at 320GB is enough.

4. BluRay writter... probably for back up or your own Blu ray player.

IMO:

I believe Apple has meassure what you can actually can use. If you noticed, in your PC you have many extras that are useless most of the time. Why I would need a Ferrari if I can run only at 90 mph at the most? Get a BMW that feels better. Remember, Apple creates their own hardware and their own OS and that makes everything more efficient.

Now, if you are an experienced PC user run your software on your PC, I do believe that a well configure PC runs faster than a Mac and can do many other things too. Macs are for the people who wants to work, no spending tiome fixing the computer or do not what to have a tech guy around all the time.