Why can't we have FaceID via an external camera?

[Mity]

Apple is selling this monstrosity:
https://www.apple.com/shop/product/HQ642ZM/A/belkin-iphone-mount-with-magsafe-for-mac-notebooks

The phone mount may be suited for a mobile solution but it's unnecessary for a desktop setup. So, why not just have an external camera that has LIDAR + other sensors that we plug into an existing machine (desktop or laptop) that we can use for FaceID? What do you think?

I use a Logitech Stream Cam and it's awesome. I'm sure Apple can make something equally as good if not better. Or perhaps allow 3rd party companies to to implement in their devices.

 

[Basic75]

Because your Mac can already unlock automatically when you have an Apple Watch on the same Apple ID?

 

[hg.wells]

That iPhone mount doesn’t allow the use of FaceID though, FaceID doesn’t exist in Mac OS.

 

[Mity]

Because your Mac can already unlock automatically when you have an Apple Watch on the same Apple ID?

What if I'm charging my AW or if I have it off?

 

[Mity]

That iPhone mount doesn’t allow the use of FaceID though, FaceID doesn’t exist in Mac OS.

True but it's still clunky. A dedicated external camera is better for a desktop setting IMO.

 

[Apple_Robert]

Apple is selling this monstrosity:
https://www.apple.com/shop/product/HQ642ZM/A/belkin-iphone-mount-with-magsafe-for-mac-notebooks
View attachment 2131721
The phone mount may be suited for a mobile solution but it's unnecessary for a desktop setup. So, why not just have an external camera that has LIDAR + other sensors that we plug into an existing machine (desktop or laptop) that we can use for FaceID? What do you think?

I use a Logitech Stream Cam and it's awesome. I'm sure Apple can make something equally as good if not better. Or perhaps allow 3rd party companies to to implement in their devices.

That would be a big security risk and exploit hole, if Apple were to do something like that. That is a very bad idea.

 

[NoBoMac]

Not only a security hole, but also not particularly practical:

Another dongle for people to complain about eating up ports. And over an insecure connection/port.
FaceID relies on Secure Enclave, so the gizmo would need at minimum a T2 chip in it. New T chip that can handle multiple >2 faces?
Family desktops: which face is associated with which account? How to add/delete faces?

 

[Mity]

That would be a big security risk and exploit hole, if Apple were to do something like that. That is a very bad idea.

How is having FaceID in an external webcam a security loophole but having it on a phone isn't?

 

[Apple_Robert]

How is having FaceID in an external webcam a security loophole but having it on a phone isn't?

On the phone, sensitive information like Face ID is stored in the Secure Enclave. An external webcam would not have that kind of security.

 

[Mity]

On the phone, sensitive information like Face ID is stored in the Secure Enclave. An external webcam would not have that kind of security.

Why does it have to be stored on the webcam? It can be encrypted and stored on the computer.

 

[Marsikus]

Such mount is intended to use good main cameras as a webcam, instead of subpar frontal camera. TrueDepth sensors are on same frontal side.

 

[orionquest]

Because Apple said no

 

[BenGoren]

You seem a bit confused … first, this doesn’t and isn’t intended to add FaceID support for the Mac. Indeed, the FaceID hardware is pointing away from your face with this device.

What it is designed for is to let you use the high-quality camera array on your phone as a webcam for your Mac. For lots of reasons, phones have much better cameras than computers do; this gives you the best of both worlds.

I’m sure somebody is making high-quality webcams, but the ones that can compete on quality with a pro-level iPhone will cost a pretty penny. Plus basically everybody already has a phone. In general, you’d be better off with an entry-level DSLR if the phone isn’t good enough.

b&

 

[Mity]

You seem a bit confused … first, this doesn’t and isn’t intended to add FaceID support for the Mac. Indeed, the FaceID hardware is pointing away from your face with this device.

What it is designed for is to let you use the high-quality camera array on your phone as a webcam for your Mac. For lots of reasons, phones have much better cameras than computers do; this gives you the best of both worlds.

I’m sure somebody is making high-quality webcams, but the ones that can compete on quality with a pro-level iPhone will cost a pretty penny. Plus basically everybody already has a phone. In general, you’d be better off with an entry-level DSLR if the phone isn’t good enough.

b&

I'm not confused as to what that product does. I'm saying that an external FaceID camera makes more sense. As in, if a product that stupid exists, surely an external camera for FaceID is warranted.

 

[tornadowrangler]

I would argue against the unstated premise that there is even a good enough reason to have FaceID on the Mac.

For the vast majority, I don't think FaceID on the Mac would be any more convenient than TouchID. You literally just have to move a finger to a button to unlock. The only purpose in adding it on the iPhone was to get rid of the Home button so the iPhone X could be fullscreen. Another thing is, if I had FaceID on the Mac, I would want some kind of button-press confirmation and not just have it unlock when my face is in front of it. On the iPhone, you have to slide-up on the screen after it unlocks and press the side-button twice to confirm an ApplePay purchase even when using FaceID. So if I'm pressing a button anyway to confirm unlock or having it input a password it with FaceID, might as well just use the fingerprint.

One change they could make to improve TouchID on the Mac would be to make the J and/or F key the touch ID button, since most people rest their index fingers there. Then you wouldn't even have to move a finger!

 

[Mity]

I would argue against the unstated premise that there is even a good enough reason to have FaceID on the Mac.

For the vast majority, I don't think FaceID on the Mac would be any more convenient than TouchID. You literally just have to move a finger to a button to unlock. The only purpose in adding it on the iPhone was to get rid of the Home button so the iPhone X could be fullscreen. Another thing is, if I had FaceID on the Mac, I would want some kind of button-press confirmation and not just have it unlock when my face is in front of it. On the iPhone, you have to slide-up on the screen after it unlocks and press the side-button twice to confirm an ApplePay purchase even when using FaceID. So if I'm pressing a button anyway to confirm unlock or having it input a password it with FaceID, might as well just use the fingerprint.

One change they could make to improve TouchID on the Mac would be to make the J and/or F key the touch ID button, since most people rest their index fingers there. Then you wouldn't even have to move a finger!

I use my Macbook Pro in clamshell mode with 2 external monitors and my Logitech keyboard. How am I suppose unlock my Mac besides entering my password manually?

As for unlocking, FaceID allows you to select for attention. When that's selected, it won't unlock if you just look at your screen; you have to make eye contact with the sensors, a very deliberate action. Same thing can be implemented with an external camera. If the whole point of FaceID is to have a more secure and more convenient way to unlock your device, it makes absolute sense for it to be supported on a Mac.

 

[london_apple]

I use my Macbook Pro in clamshell mode with 2 external monitors and my Logitech keyboard. How am I suppose unlock my Mac besides entering my password manually?

As for unlocking, FaceID allows you to select for attention. When that's selected, it won't unlock if you just look at your screen; you have to make eye contact with the sensors, a very deliberate action. Same thing can be implemented with an external camera. If the whole point of FaceID is to have a more secure and more convenient way to unlock your device, it makes absolute sense for it to be supported on a Mac.

I think someone else said it before, but if you're using your MacBook in clamshell mode, I'm assuming you can still unlock with Apple Watch, or use the external keyboard with Touch ID versus using the password. I'm sure you know this... and it's not your point, but, options. 😜

 

[kitKAC]

I would argue against the unstated premise that there is even a good enough reason to have FaceID on the Mac.

For the vast majority, I don't think FaceID on the Mac would be any more convenient than TouchID. You literally just have to move a finger to a button to unlock. The only purpose in adding it on the iPhone was to get rid of the Home button so the iPhone X could be fullscreen. Another thing is, if I had FaceID on the Mac, I would want some kind of button-press confirmation and not just have it unlock when my face is in front of it. On the iPhone, you have to slide-up on the screen after it unlocks and press the side-button twice to confirm an ApplePay purchase even when using FaceID. So if I'm pressing a button anyway to confirm unlock or having it input a password it with FaceID, might as well just use the fingerprint.

One change they could make to improve TouchID on the Mac would be to make the J and/or F key the touch ID button, since most people rest their index fingers there. Then you wouldn't even have to move a finger!

All of a sudden, a Pay prompt appears and you've already paid for something before you know what happened! The Touch ID key is in a good position because it's a deliberate movement to use it. Face ID would still need a key on the keyboard (whose key press can't be faked) to approve payments as well.

 

[Marsikus]

Hmm... Apple Pay on the phone requires to click a button twice alongside with presenting owner's face.
Something similar could have been done for Mac as well.

 

[kitKAC]

Sounds like it'd be more trouble than it's worth for Apple to put the work in.

 

[JustAnExpat]

How is having FaceID in an external webcam a security loophole but having it on a phone isn't?

FaceID Technology information can be found at https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208108
The CIA Triad is a framework to identify potential information security risks. See https://www.fortinet.com/resources/cyberglossary/cia-triad for more information

Here's some potential information security flaws I can see happening with having FaceID on an external webcam.

1. How is the camera connected? Is it connected via USB? What type of eavesdropping could happen between the camera and the computer?
2. Who is making the webcam? How is Apple sending them the chips to allow FaceID to happen?
3. Where is the Secure Enclave located? Is it located on the camera? If so, how is Apple confirming the Secure Enclave wasn't tempered? If it's located on the computer itself, how can Apple confirm the data being sent from the camera to the computer isn't tempered while in transit?

All pretty big risks, don't you agree?

 

[Mity]

Sounds like it'd be more trouble than it's worth for Apple to put the work in.

I think it's that Apple wants to include that in a future update to force older Mac users to upgrade. I'm willing to bet that will be the case.

 

[Mity]

I think someone else said it before, but if you're using your MacBook in clamshell mode, I'm assuming you can still unlock with Apple Watch, or use the external keyboard with Touch ID versus using the password. I'm sure you know this... and it's not your point, but, options. 😜

And I've also said that I don't use Apple keyboards. I use Logitech only. Also, what if my watch is off? I have to keep my watch on me at all times like some sort of ankle monitor? Not practical.

For me, TouchID on my Pixel and Mac doesn't work because my hands get dry in winter. That's why I much prefer the FaceID on my iPhone.

 

[Mity]

FaceID Technology information can be found at https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208108
The CIA Triad is a framework to identify potential information security risks. See https://www.fortinet.com/resources/cyberglossary/cia-triad for more information

Here's some potential information security flaws I can see happening with having FaceID on an external webcam.

1. How is the camera connected? Is it connected via USB? What type of eavesdropping could happen between the camera and the computer?
2. Who is making the webcam? How is Apple sending them the chips to allow FaceID to happen?
3. Where is the Secure Enclave located? Is it located on the camera? If so, how is Apple confirming the Secure Enclave wasn't tempered? If it's located on the computer itself, how can Apple confirm the data being sent from the camera to the computer isn't tempered while in transit?

All pretty big risks, don't you agree?

Apple has many reliable, 3rd party manufacturers, like Logitech. And Apple devices are made in China, a country that poses significant security risks to just about every Western country.

I can make the same argument for using any USB device with a malicious purpose. If you know someone's password and you have physical access like via a USB, the same scenario that you manufactured, how is that any different?

 

[Shirasaki]

Clamshell mode is certainly not mainstream usage of laptop computers, no matter how you spin it. More people would use laptop as their main computer (students for example) than people using it in clamshell mode.

Even putting that aside, I don’t know how the camera can beat dedicated sensors mapping your face and store data about it. The connection would have To be done via insecure connection (BT and Wifi are not secure connection for this purpose) For external camera, which makes no sense. Even if the webcam location has FaceID module (which in clamshell mode would be useless anyway), Apple would either have to run a separate cable towards Secure Enclave, or change the camera cable to also support that transmission, complicating computer repair.

You might say, ”just encrypt the transmission and all set”. No. Anything sensitive like face data being transmitted wirelessly is inherently less secure than transmitting it through wire, which is harder to intercept.

All in all, based on your use case, I still can’t find a convincing reason why FaceID has to be implemented using iPhone camera.