Why can't we have FaceID via an external camera?

[Mity]

Clamshell mode is certainly not mainstream usage of laptop computers, no matter how you spin it. More people would use laptop as their main computer (students for example) than people using it in clamshell mode.

Even putting that aside, I don’t know how the camera can beat dedicated sensors mapping your face and store data about it. The connection would have To be done via insecure connection (BT and Wifi are not secure connection for this purpose) For external camera, which makes no sense. Even if the webcam location has FaceID module (which in clamshell mode would be useless anyway), Apple would either have to run a separate cable towards Secure Enclave, or change the camera cable to also support that transmission, complicating computer repair.

You might say, ”just encrypt the transmission and all set”. No. Anything sensitive like face data being transmitted wirelessly is inherently less secure than transmitting it through wire, which is harder to intercept.

All in all, based on your use case, I still can’t find a convincing reason why FaceID has to be implemented using iPhone camera.

All serious users I know (coders, photographers) use a at least one external monitor - I have 2 4K monitors via the traditional coder setup: twitter img macrumors img
The one friend who I have that works in consulting simply uses his laptop without any displays but he's not using it as his main device to produce any content. It's just a glorified netbook for him.

As for security, if other transmission methods like BT and WiFi are not secure (BTW, I never claimed they were) then why allow an Apple Watch to unlock a Mac? If safety means that you must have direct access to the logic board, why connect your TimeMachine external drive via USB, even if it is encrypted?

 

[Thisismattwade]

Following on the OP’s questioning, as I’m genuinely interested in this topic, but quite ignorant. I did find this document on Apple’s site. It details Touch ID on the new magic keyboards, but I’m guessing something in this process isn’t permitted with third party hardware developers, and that’s why you can’t have Face ID via an external/third party webcam. Could Apple do it someday? It seems so…

 

[Shirasaki]

All serious users I know (coders, photographers) use a at least one external monitor - I have 2 4K monitors via the traditional coder setup: twitter img macrumors img
The one friend who I have that works in consulting simply uses his laptop without any displays but he's not using it as his main device to produce any content. It's just a glorified netbook for him.

As for security, if other transmission methods like BT and WiFi are not secure (BTW, I never claimed they were) then why allow an Apple Watch to unlock a Mac? If safety means that you must have direct access to the logic board, why connect your TimeMachine external drive via USB, even if it is encrypted?

Well, those serious users might not have as high demand of FaceID as you have here. But that’s just me guessing.

As for the security, if Apple watch just uses standard BT, other phone should connect, right? But they don’t. There’s more to the story than just BT, even though in setting if you turn off Apple Watch BT it will not connect back to your iPhone automatically. Also, different scenario requires different level of security and different implementation. You can’t expect encrypting your data works the same way as encrypting your facial recognition data, and thus having the same standards.

 

[BenGoren]

Honestly?

You’re really being unreasonable here.

FaceID on the iPhone isn’t just a camera. It’s an entire suite of very specialized hardware (of which the camera is perhaps the least important part) with some really tricky security-critical engineering. I don’t think any of the other smartphones have matched Apple’s security record … and they have R&D departments that rival Apple’s. (Not that Apple is perfect! They’re just less imperfect.)

I simply don’t see some random webcam company even having a prayer at making such a device, even if Apple sold them the Secure Enclave chips. (Why would Apple sell those to anybody in the first place?)

And even if some company theoretically could … why would they want to? What’s the market? I can’t see unit sales even breaking into the five digits, let alone six. Not to mention the liability! Imagine what they’d be in for the first time an unauthorized face unlocked a computer with one of these things. Or, suppose some YouTuber figures out that a paper mask with eye cutouts defeats the security or the like … instant death for the product.

Sorry. You’re clearly convinced of the righteousness of your position, and even more so want to convince the rest of us. But even if you did, it wouldn’t matter. First, you’d have to convince Apple, not us — and that’s simply not happening. And then you’d have to convince some third party to make them for you, and that’s really not happening.

b&

 

[Alex Cai]

I use my Macbook Pro in clamshell mode with 2 external monitors and my Logitech keyboard. How am I suppose unlock my Mac besides entering my password manually?

As for unlocking, FaceID allows you to select for attention. When that's selected, it won't unlock if you just look at your screen; you have to make eye contact with the sensors, a very deliberate action. Same thing can be implemented with an external camera. If the whole point of FaceID is to have a more secure and more convenient way to unlock your device, it makes absolute sense for it to be supported on a Mac.

Get the magically priced Magic Keyboard or use this:

The Apple Magic Button — Basic Apple Guy

The Magic Button is a new accessory bringing the advanced biometric privacy & security of Touch ID to older Macs and those using third-party keyboards.

basicappleguy.com

 

[Marsikus]

I simply don’t see some random webcam company even having a prayer at making such a device, even if Apple sold them the Secure Enclave chips. (Why would Apple sell those to anybody in the first place?)

Depth camera is not alien tech, there are several on market.

some YouTuber figures out that a paper mask with eye cutouts defeats the security or the like … instant death for the product.

There was such case in past, when first facial authentication technics relied on graphical image only. That were loolz.
I am not sure, did Samsung add a thermal camera to improve security later or not, but they don't recommend image-based face recognition for secure environments even now: https://www.samsung.com/sg/support/...unlock-when-it-is-locked-by-face-recognition/

 

[headshok2002]

Resurrecting this thread...

Mac Mini M2 user here. New to the Mac world and really miss Windows Hello which unlocked my PC as soon as I sat at my desk. It was convenient and adequately secure for my use case.

Have to admit, that "Magic Button" April Fool's joke had me going. I'd have bought it FOR SURE.

I'm an ergo keyboard user, so not about to switch to the Magic keyboard. Perhaps I'll buy a magic keyboard and two-sided tape it underneath my desk. Super sleek solution right? Thanks Apple.

 

[xraydoc]

Resurrecting this thread...

Mac Mini M2 user here. New to the Mac world and really miss Windows Hello which unlocked my PC as soon as I sat at my desk. It was convenient and adequately secure for my use case.

Have to admit, that "Magic Button" April Fool's joke had me going. I'd have bought it FOR SURE.

I'm an ergo keyboard user, so not about to switch to the Magic keyboard. Perhaps I'll buy a magic keyboard and two-sided tape it underneath my desk. Super sleek solution right? Thanks Apple.

It would have been nice had the Apple Studio Display included the necessary hardware for FaceID (infrared microdot projector, etc).

I do, however, wear an Apple Watch, so my Mac unlocks automatically as long as I'm close enough to it (Mac and Watch communicate over peer-to-peer wifi; if response happens quick enough such that the Mac believes the watch is in close proximity, and of course on my wrist and unlocked, it will unlock the Mac). And things like Apple Pay and user authorization requests will also get pushed to the watch, so just a double-tap of the side button will take care of those things.

I don't use a TouchID keyboard, either (I've have an awesome custom mechanical keyboard), so TouchID isn't much of an option.

It occasionally fails to unlock the Mac, but no more frequent than FaceID does in my case. So I'm ok with the situation.

 

[Mity]

Resurrecting this thread...

Mac Mini M2 user here. New to the Mac world and really miss Windows Hello which unlocked my PC as soon as I sat at my desk. It was convenient and adequately secure for my use case.

Have to admit, that "Magic Button" April Fool's joke had me going. I'd have bought it FOR SURE.

I'm an ergo keyboard user, so not about to switch to the Magic keyboard. Perhaps I'll buy a magic keyboard and two-sided tape it underneath my desk. Super sleek solution right? Thanks Apple.

It would have been nice had the Apple Studio Display included the necessary hardware for FaceID (infrared microdot projector, etc).

I do, however, wear an Apple Watch, so my Mac unlocks automatically as long as I'm close enough to it (Mac and Watch communicate over peer-to-peer wifi; if response happens quick enough such that the Mac believes the watch is in close proximity, and of course on my wrist and unlocked, it will unlock the Mac). And things like Apple Pay and user authorization requests will also get pushed to the watch, so just a double-tap of the side button will take care of those things.

I don't use a TouchID keyboard, either (I've have an awesome custom mechanical keyboard), so TouchID isn't much of an option.

It occasionally fails to unlock the Mac, but no more frequent than FaceID does in my case. So I'm ok with the situation.

I actually love FaceID. The fact that it can work in near darkness is fantastic. During winter time when my hands are dry, the fingerprint scanner on my Macs / Pixel 7 Pro don't work. FaceID only fails me when I'm lying down in a certain way with my arm near my head or something that would naturally confuse the sensors.

I think the biggest problem at Apple is that a product person is not in charge of the company. Too many money-minded executives like Tim Cook and others in marketing/pricing that make stupid decisions like making the SSDs in M2 Macs slower than M1 Macs to save...$1-2/unit? Basically forcing people to upgrade to 1TB+. What a d*ck move! And people, responded justly:
https://www.cnbc.com/2023/04/10/app...an-40percent-worse-than-major-rivals-idc.html

Apple Halted M2 Chip Production in January Amid 'Plummeting' Mac Sales

Apple halted production of its M2 series chips at the start of 2023 following a pronounced slump in global demand for MacBooks, claims a new report...

www.macrumors.com

 

[xraydoc]

I actually love FaceID. The fact that it can work in near darkness is fantastic. During winter time when my hands are dry, the fingerprint scanner on my Macs / Pixel 7 Pro don't work. FaceID only fails me when I'm lying down in a certain way with my arm near my head or something that would naturally confuse the sensors.

I think the biggest problem at Apple is that a product person is not in charge of the company. Too many money-minded executives like Tim Cook and others in marketing/pricing that make stupid decisions like making the SSDs in M2 Macs slower than M1 Macs to save...$1-2/unit? Basically forcing people to upgrade to 1TB+. What a d*ck move! And people, responded justly:
https://www.cnbc.com/2023/04/10/app...an-40percent-worse-than-major-rivals-idc.html

Apple Halted M2 Chip Production in January Amid 'Plummeting' Mac Sales

Apple halted production of its M2 series chips at the start of 2023 following a pronounced slump in global demand for MacBooks, claims a new report...

www.macrumors.com

I will concede your point about Apple being run by cost-cutters rather than cool-feature-power-users. But I don't think Apple's lagging M2 sales are directly due to slower SSDs on the base models. But yes, disappointing they would do this. Still faster than the SSDs in many base model Windows laptops, but disappointing nonetheless.

 

[headshok2002]

See, I didn't even know the SSD was slower in an M2 Mac vs M1. Not sure how much that would impact sales as you have to get into the nitty gritties to even notice that -- and outside folks who might be on a forum like this, we just assume newer = better.

Now I know. Have been thinking of another Mini to keep at another work location so perhaps I won't shy away from a used or discounted M1.

Still, though, the lack of biometric security options for Mac Mini users is garbo. Even if the Studio Display did allow for Face ID (I actually thought it did) it's not really an option for most people. That thing is for a very special breed of worker bee and for most it's stupidly expensive overkill.

 

[Mity]

See, I didn't even know the SSD was slower in an M2 Mac vs M1. Not sure how much that would impact sales as you have to get into the nitty gritties to even notice that -- and outside folks who might be on a forum like this, we just assume newer = better.

Now I know. Have been thinking of another Mini to keep at another work location so perhaps I won't shy away from a used or discounted M1.

Still, though, the lack of biometric security options for Mac Mini users is garbo. Even if the Studio Display did allow for Face ID (I actually thought it did) it's not really an option for most people. That thing is for a very special breed of worker bee and for most it's stupidly expensive overkill.

Here's a comparison of the 14" M1 Pro vs M2 Pro:

Below are the benchmarks for the Mac Mini. I can't imagine anyone with a base M1 "upgrading" to a base M2.

2018 Intel Write: 1627
2018 Intel Read: 2485

2020 Base M1 Write: 2733
2020 Base M1 Read: 2854

2023 Base M2 Write: 1431
2023 Base M2 Read: 1482

2023 512GB M2 Write: 3417
2023 512GB M2 Read: 2987

And the idea that FaceID is on an iPhone and not in an external camera is illogical to me. It is MORE costly to implement FaceID on a small device than on an external webcam. More importantly, once you're done with your iPhone and move on, you can't take FaceID with you. But if you upgrade from an Intel Mac to an M1, for example, you would still be able to use the external camera . Much more logical if your goal is to make a product that works for people. It's NOT logical if you're trying to sell accessories and force people to buy iPhones for the same purpose, like the greedy Apple executives want.

 

[Adam1988]

Apple is selling this monstrosity:
https://www.apple.com/shop/product/HQ642ZM/A/belkin-iphone-mount-with-magsafe-for-mac-notebooks
View attachment 2131721
The phone mount may be suited for a mobile solution but it's unnecessary for a desktop setup. So, why not just have an external camera that has LIDAR + other sensors that we plug into an existing machine (desktop or laptop) that we can use for FaceID? What do you think?

I use a Logitech Stream Cam and it's awesome. I'm sure Apple can make something equally as good if not better. Or perhaps allow 3rd party companies to to implement in their devices.

Logitech Stream Cam? What is that model? i am looking for a very good quality picture and FACE TRACKING WEBCAM for vtubing do you have the link?

 

[Adam1988]

True but it's still clunky. A dedicated external camera is better for a desktop setting IMO.

AGREED

 

[Mity]

Logitech Stream Cam? What is that model? i am looking for a very good quality picture and FACE TRACKING WEBCAM for vtubing do you have the link?

I have this one: https://www.logitech.com/en-us/products/webcams/streamcam.960-001286.html?

For my purposes (school and work Zoom/Teams calls), I found HD to be perfectly adequate but you may want to check out their 4K options as well: https://www.logitech.com/en-us/products/webcams/brio-4k-hdr-webcam.960-001105.html?

Unfortunately, I don't think it has face tracking like Apple's Center Stage feature. You'd likely have to do this via 3rd party software.