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Apple's video card choices suck, plain and simple. :mad: Not only are the video cards in the iMacs underpowered, they have been isolated as the main reason for the freezing issue. I think the MBP got a decent break with the 8600gt, but it is by no means a screamer. The mini has older-than-dirt integrated GMA950, and the Mac Pro's video cards are almost three years old in some cases.

The base video card in the Mac Pro (nVidia 7300GT) is 17 months old and pathetically underpowered. It's like putting a 2-cylinder engine in a Mustang.

The x1900xt in the Mac Pro will be three years old this coming January. Some people had to have their cards replaced due to artifacting. Apple had Foxconn produce a revision 2 of the card that supposedly cut down on the artifacting.

The Quadro FX 4500 is about two and a half years old (July 05) and has been superseded by several generations of professional-level graphics.

Apple prefers cards that are quiet, and in doing so have and will regularly de-tune the cards to lower clock speeds so that fan speed can be kept to a minimum. Apple never takes into account graphics performance, or anything related to gaming, because quite frankly, His Steveness doesn't want you playing games on your Mac. He wants you to make edible garbage with iMovie 08 and post it to YouTube.

Pouring salt in the wound, Apple charges outrageous prices for these video cards, when you build-to-order. Want to add a second 7300GT to your Mac Pro?? It will cost you $150.00, when it can be purchased RETAIL for $50.00 or less. How about the x1900xt?? $400.00 for that card, where (if you can even find it anymore) it costs $150 or less. Consider this: an nVidia 8800GTS that would literally spank the x1800xt costs about $250.00. So for an extra $150.00 you can have a three year old card. :rolleyes:

They could have done so much better on the video card options in the iMac, but they wanted high margins and low noise. And they could have at least updated the Mac Pro's at least ONCE since its inception a year and three months ago. The Mac Pro has been virtually untouched since its inception.

Apple has no grasp of video card technology, given their long history of poorly-performing and absurdly expensive graphics card choices.

I agree with most of that, but for the last point. To the contrary, I believe Apple has grasped things very well in this department, something confirmed in both record sales & high profit margins attained. Being a monopoly with OS X allows Apple to give you the minimum cards acceptable, knowing that the only alternative, a Windows PC, is something anathema to most Mac users... most, but by no means all. I think PC companies offering the same mediocre graphics would soon lose customers to their competitors.

FWIW, the only reason I haven't bought a PC this week is that I'm still hoping Apple will release a new headless Mac with discrete graphics at consumer prices in the near future, something quite feasible considering the persistent rumours of the Mini's imminent demise. If not, well thanks to Apple's limited graphics on their current consumer Macs - sadly, the glossy iMacs aren't an option for me for a number of other reasons - it looks like it'll be Mac laptops for work & a PC desktop for gaming, etc. in future.

So re the OP's question: I think that, overall, Mac users have very good reason to complain about the lack of choice when it comes to video cards.
 
If I recall correctly, Apple produces the drivers for all of its NVIDIA cards, while ATI writes the drivers for its own Mac products. Incidentally, ATI's drivers are usually better than Apple's NVIDIA drivers and get more out of the their cards than Apple does with the NVIDIA products.

which makes it even more sad since on the windows and linux side NVIDIA drivers are normally far better than ATI (especially on openGL which drum very often get beaten around here too ;) )

on top of that in many macs it's some sort of mobile chipset for which drivers aren' t that great anyway

so it's like stacking one not so glorious part over another

ati drivers
mobile chips
which may have been underclocked
different OS
ati chips which may be lacking in opengl in the first place
 
...And by the way ALL of these cards got horrible frame rates with the Crysis demo, aside from the single core bottleneck.

...

On the brighter side, the 8600 is a fine performer for a laptop... and for a puny 15" or 17" screen. DirectX10 is very new and very unstable at this point, it's just the typical phase that all new things go through. In the future we will see DirectX10.1 which will be highly better optimized, and better price/performance cards such as the nVidia 8800GT and the ATi Radeon 3800. But for now, as a broke gamer myself I'm completely satisfied with my choice of the entry level MacBook Pro video card. When I'm not using it for paycheck related purposes, it just gives me that little tingly sensation when I'm "fragging" all the little whine-o teenagers who've spent millions of dollars (*hint* that was an exaggeration) on their 8800GTX ultra super cooled with dual exhaust and gas powered hydrogen rigs with my ...Mac!:apple:

My 8800gts managed a respectable 30fps at 1680x1050, high settings, no AA. Let me tell ya, it was gorgeous. As someone mentioned before, the cards aren't super expensive.

This is Apple, right. Offer us the best these companies like nVidia and ATi have. Humor us and drop a 8800 or a HD2900 into the Mac Pro.

Just for the heck of it, I selected components as if I were to build a computer to match the specs of a Mac Pro (~$1300, incredible right?). Replace that puny 7300GT with 2 8800Ultras and you have a computer that costs the same as an entry level Mac Pro but is what, 20 times faster in terms of FPS. This is just the gamer inside of me speaking.
 
We could speculate what we want for years and still we wouldn't find the reason why mr Steve doesn't want us to play in these machines. The last time I saw him speaking he was saying: "Oh, look at these macs running harry potter... This is great...!" The drunk boss of EA said the same...

For fractions of second I thought that this was the beginning of mac gaming, but then I realized they were just throwing sand to our eyes. Why the hell the ports run slow on imacs and mbp? They knew the hardware (unlike pc configurations) and they knew the software. I only see in forums people complaining about Battlefield crashes and Need For Speed low frame rates even at low resolutions. Shouldn't they test the games till they run almost flawlessly? That didn't happen. Where is VALVE? A million dollars? mr. Steve, put your hand on your pocket and throw that bills away because I believe in one year you would profit the double of it.

Mr Steve, please step in front of the audience and tell us why you don't want gamers in Apple world. It would save us a lot of typing time.
 
Damn I gotta get me an 8800GT soon !! Like in a couple days when my EVGA model arrives at the store ;) Yup I broke down and ordered it for $259 canadian $$. Cant wait to try that with Crysis. My 7950GT will get shuffled into my older box.

 
Apple's video card choices suck, plain and simple. :mad: Not only are the video cards in the iMacs underpowered, they have been isolated as the main reason for the freezing issue. I think the MBP got a decent break with the 8600gt, but it is by no means a screamer. The mini has older-than-dirt integrated GMA950, and the Mac Pro's video cards are almost three years old in some cases.

The base video card in the Mac Pro (nVidia 7300GT) is 17 months old and pathetically underpowered. It's like putting a 2-cylinder engine in a Mustang.

The x1900xt in the Mac Pro will be three years old this coming January. Some people had to have their cards replaced due to artifacting. Apple had Foxconn produce a revision 2 of the card that supposedly cut down on the artifacting.

The Quadro FX 4500 is about two and a half years old (July 05) and has been superseded by several generations of professional-level graphics.

Apple prefers cards that are quiet, and in doing so have and will regularly de-tune the cards to lower clock speeds so that fan speed can be kept to a minimum. Apple never takes into account graphics performance, or anything related to gaming, because quite frankly, His Steveness doesn't want you playing games on your Mac. He wants you to make edible garbage with iMovie 08 and post it to YouTube.

Pouring salt in the wound, Apple charges outrageous prices for these video cards, when you build-to-order. Want to add a second 7300GT to your Mac Pro?? It will cost you $150.00, when it can be purchased RETAIL for $50.00 or less. How about the x1900xt?? $400.00 for that card, where (if you can even find it anymore) it costs $150 or less. Consider this: an nVidia 8800GTS that would literally spank the x1800xt costs about $250.00. So for an extra $150.00 you can have a three year old card. :rolleyes:

They could have done so much better on the video card options in the iMac, but they wanted high margins and low noise. And they could have at least updated the Mac Pro's at least ONCE since its inception a year and three months ago. The Mac Pro has been virtually untouched since its inception.

Apple has no grasp of video card technology, given their long history of poorly-performing and absurdly expensive graphics card choices.

Bravo.

I agree completely, except I'd differ on your last point. I think Apple knows video card technology damn well. It's their intention that's the problem.

The new iMac's video card (2600 PRO) sends a very clear message. It's a card packed with advanced graphics technology, that also packs a very weak punch when it comes to games.

That's the best expression of Steve's opinion of gaming on macs: "Go for it, but we sure as hell aren't going to lift a finger to help you."

With the fantastic price/performance of the 8800GT, there's increasingly fewer excuses not to have better cards.
 
I preface this with the fact that I am only a casual gamer, and not even a PC gamer at that. My games are Halo 3 and NCAA Football on XBOX 360, but after installing Leopard and Vista in boot camp on my MBP (see sig) I wanted to see what the 8600M GT 128mb could do. So, I installed F.E.A.R. to test it out. It even has it's own built in test to see which settings are best for your setup. I went into the settings and maxed out every single option and resolution was at 1024 x 768 I believe since there wasn't an option to run it at exact native resolution of the MBP which is 1440 x 900.

At these maxed out settings, my frame rate average was 31-33 or so which looked pretty good in the system test video, so then I started a single player game to see what happened in actual game play. It played just fine. It wasn't absolute PERFECTION, but very playable and very minimal choppiness in very busy, fast-moving action. My roommate was very impressed since it outperformed his 1 1/2 yr old full tower Dell XPS gaming rig even tho my MBP only has the LOW-END MBP card. No doubt, having the 256mb version of the 8600M GT would have added a few more frames and eliminated the tiny bit of choppiness that exists on the 128mb version.

I realize there are more demanding games out there than F.E.A.R. but not many. If my LOW-END MBP can run it no problem essentially maxed out, then what do all you guys really have to complain about?

It seems that Apples choice of video cards seem to be pretty capable of playing some relatively demanding games.

I can think of plenty of reasons to complain about the GPUs in the Macs.

Will-Bill put it perfectly when talking about the Mac Pro.

I'll talk about the MacBook and MacBook Pro.

The GPU in the $1,999 MacBook Pro is a 128MB GeForce 8600M GT. For $700 less at ibuypower, you can get a system similar to the MacBook Pro but with a 512MB GeForce 8600M GT. For about $500 less from Dell (compared to the $1,999 MacBook Pro), you can get a system with the exact same specs, except a 1680x1050 screen, 256MB GeForce 8600M GT, and a blu-ray reader that writes DVDs and has an HDMI output.

In the $1,999 range, you can usually get dual GPUs with 512MB or more of memory, running in SLI mode, etc.

If you go up to the $2,499 and $2,799 range, you can get higher end cards running in SLI with around 1GB of memory.

When it comes to the MacBook.. it's ridiculous that Apple doesn't use a dedicated GPU in it! $1,299 for a system with a previous generation integrated GPU. $1,299 at Dell will get you 256MB GeForce 8600M GT, 1680x1050 15.4" screen, 2GHz Core 2 Duo (Santa Rosa), 2GB of RAM, 160GB HDD. My $1050 HP came with a 128MB GeForce 8400M, 2GB of RAM, 160GB HDD, 2GHz Core 2 Duo (Santa Rosa). Infact, the MacBook is probably the only non-Sony system to cost more than $800 and come with an integrated GPU.

If Apple insists on an integrated GPU, which they made fun of in the past, why not choose one from nVidia or ATI? They both make integrated GPUs for Intel platforms that are MUCH better than either the GMA 950 or X3100.

But for $1408 (MacBook w/SuperDrive in California after taxes), the MacBook should come with *at least* a GeForce 8400M or ATI equivalent.
 
But for $1408 (MacBook w/SuperDrive in California after taxes), the MacBook should come with *at least* a GeForce 8400M or ATI equivalent.

isn't going to happen sadly since apple is anal about clearly separating their product lines even if it doesn't make any sense

also it would very likely eat their powerbook sales to some extend (on which they have a high margin) and also lower the margin on the macbook too
 
1. Macbooks should be updated soon.
2. The GMA 950 is basically free because it's integrated into the chipset, less space, less money, less power. Yes, it is ancient.
3. The updated Macbooks should have new integrated video from the Santa Rosa Chipset (X3100) or something like that.

I can think of plenty of reasons to complain about the GPUs in the Macs.

Will-Bill put it perfectly when talking about the Mac Pro.

I'll talk about the MacBook and MacBook Pro.

The GPU in the $1,999 MacBook Pro is a 128MB GeForce 8600M GT. For $700 less at ibuypower, you can get a system similar to the MacBook Pro but with a 512MB GeForce 8600M GT. For about $500 less from Dell (compared to the $1,999 MacBook Pro), you can get a system with the exact same specs, except a 1680x1050 screen, 256MB GeForce 8600M GT, and a blu-ray reader that writes DVDs and has an HDMI output.

In the $1,999 range, you can usually get dual GPUs with 512MB or more of memory, running in SLI mode, etc.

If you go up to the $2,499 and $2,799 range, you can get higher end cards running in SLI with around 1GB of memory.

When it comes to the MacBook.. it's ridiculous that Apple doesn't use a dedicated GPU in it! $1,299 for a system with a previous generation integrated GPU. $1,299 at Dell will get you 256MB GeForce 8600M GT, 1680x1050 15.4" screen, 2GHz Core 2 Duo (Santa Rosa), 2GB of RAM, 160GB HDD. My $1050 HP came with a 128MB GeForce 8400M, 2GB of RAM, 160GB HDD, 2GHz Core 2 Duo (Santa Rosa). Infact, the MacBook is probably the only non-Sony system to cost more than $800 and come with an integrated GPU.

If Apple insists on an integrated GPU, which they made fun of in the past, why not choose one from nVidia or ATI? They both make integrated GPUs for Intel platforms that are MUCH better than either the GMA 950 or X3100.

But for $1408 (MacBook w/SuperDrive in California after taxes), the MacBook should come with *at least* a GeForce 8400M or ATI equivalent.
 
1. Macbooks should be updated soon.
2. The GMA 950 is basically free because it's integrated into the chipset, less space, less money, less power. Yes, it is ancient.
3. The updated Macbooks should have new integrated video from the Santa Rosa Chipset (X3100) or something like that.


captainobviouslb4.jpg
 
1. MacBooks should be updated soon.
2. The GMA 950 is basically free because it's integrated into the chipset, less space, less money, less power. Yes, it is ancient.
3. The updated Macbooks should have new integrated video from the Santa Rosa Chipset (X3100) or something like that.


I'll bet that Apple & Steve Jobs really love Captain Obvious! :D
 
1. Macbooks should be updated soon.
2. The GMA 950 is basically free because it's integrated into the chipset, less space, less money, less power. Yes, it is ancient.
3. The updated Macbooks should have new integrated video from the Santa Rosa Chipset (X3100) or something like that.

Apple could at least offer an upgrade option. Pass the cost of a dedicated GPU on to the consumer. Its what everybody else does.

Now that the MacBook has the X3100, it can finally play games the same way the GeForce4 Ti 4200 did back in 2002! (According to Intel anyway).

Edit: It really can't. Intel claimed similar performance between the two. However, the X3100 steals memory and bandwidth from the main system RAM. So you have it stealing valuable bandwidth from the CPU, which slows down their performance... and, in turn, overall performance. The GeForce4 Ti 4200 also had more bandwidth available to it from its dedicated memory than the X3100 would get from its shared memory.
 
Putting integrated graphics in a laptop makes some sense, since the VRAM in a discrete GPU card can really suck the juice. But it will always be inferior to a discrete video card with dedicated VRAM.

The X3100 is a significant improvement for the MacBook, but it is also ominous since it means Apple is committing to Intel's integrated graphics for the foreseable future - in other words, don't expect anything to change for years. The Mac Mini, if it doesn't get killed off, will probably suffer a similar fate.
 
I must be in an odd minority. I basically got an iMac a year ago for gaming and developing in Windows. I play Orange Box games every night, occasionally play on Doom 3 and the likes. I think my iMac is fine for gaming, I've been a PC gamer with up to date video cards in the past and it's just an expensive hobby then.

I don't care for uber new games though. Which is probably what everyone feels Apple should be catering for. I can understand, I'm no "dial up user" ;) I just had no reason to get anything more powerful. Even today I'd get a card not much better than a X1600.

Oh, and are we going to have this discussion again when the next big 3D game is out? :D
 
Putting integrated graphics in a laptop makes some sense, since the VRAM in a discrete GPU card can really suck the juice. But it will always be inferior to a discrete video card with dedicated VRAM.

Thats not true at all. ATI and especially nVidia, have invested a lot in power saving technology. They'll lower the core speed, lower the memory speed, etc. to pump up the battery life. I know on a PC I had with the ATI Xpress 200M, the power saving mode on that would automatically cut the core clock speed down from 400MHz to 100MHz. My GeForce in my HP will cut down the speed of everything, lower the screen brightness, etc.

And look at Apple's own specs. They claim 6 hours of battery life in the MacBook Pro with a dedicated GPU.

nVidia and ATI definitely have power saving features, but the increased performance (and image quality in video playback) is worth any sacrificed battery life. I know I'd rather have an "Estimated" 5 hours of battery life in my MacBook if it meant having a GeForce 8400M in it, as well as DVD Player FINALLY being able to take advantage of hardware features so the image quality isn't the laughing stock of the DVD player world.

The X3100 is a significant improvement for the MacBook

Not really. It performs not even as well as low end dedicated GPUs from 2002. You might get 40fps in UT2k4 at 800x600 now with everything set to above medium, versus the GMA 950 choking out 30fps at 800x600 with everything set to medium.

The X3100 still has no advanced video decoding or acceleration features. Its ironic that Apple relies on H.264 video encoding, yet their most popular products don't even support hardware decoding and acceleration of the video.

I basically got an iMac a year ago for gaming and developing in Windows. I play Orange Box games every night, occasionally play on Doom 3 and the likes. I think my iMac is fine for gaming, I've been a PC gamer with up to date video cards in the past and it's just an expensive hobby then.

I don't care for uber new games though. Which is probably what everyone feels Apple should be catering for. I can understand, I'm no "dial up user" I just had no reason to get anything more powerful. Even today I'd get a card not much better than a X1600.

iMac uses mobile components. With the exception of the HDD, the CPU, GPU, etc. are all mobile parts.

So yes, you could get something significantly more powerful today. Even a year ago, you could have gotten something that would have performed 2-3x faster for much less than the cost (whole system) of your iMac.
 
Thats not true at all.

Everything you said essentially agrees with what I've said...yes, ATI and NVIDIA have produced very efficient chipsets of late, but an embedded GPU will always use more power and produce more heat than an otherwise identical integrated setup due to the VRAM.

Of course, you also need to realize that Intel has doubtless heavily encouraged Apple to adopt their integrated GPUs, and Apple is not a gamer-centric company by any stretch. At any rate, I stand by my statement that the X3100 is an improvement for the MacBook - care to argue that the GMA 950 was better? I never said it was the best possible choice, not by a long shot.

I have already said that an embedded GPU would be preferable IMHO, but is an X3100 "good enough"? Well, the GMA 950-equipped MacBooks positively flew off the shelves, so if the trend continues I guess the answer is "yes", gamers be damned.
 
That's no excuse to sell it at $400. For $230 you get a card which is at least 3 times faster.

Actually, that is not really a good point....Not every card on the market will work on the mac, companies only make certain cards that will work...So yeah, maybe for PC you could get a $230 card that outperforms, but you have to look at the cards the manufacturers are actually building that are mac compatible...

Apples choice of video cards might suck..compared to the sweet vc's you see on pc machines, but what it comes down to is that that is the manufacturers choice. Hopefully someday we will see a day that manufacturers will release pc and mac card versions of their hardware at the same time. peace.:apple:

EDIT: I like your post #28 PMR, you gotta love newegg :D
 
There is nothing wrong with the ATI HD2600 XT in the iMacs. It is up to date, DX10/OpenGL 2 compatible and performs fine.

I think most complaints most mac users have with video cards come from the people who buy Macbooks and Mac Minis and expect superb 3D performance.

I do agree though that the Mac Pro needs to come with a midrange card and not low-end by default.

Uhh... you do realise that it gets beaten by the video card in the previous iMac, right?
 
...And look at Apple's own specs. They claim 6 hours of battery life in the MacBook Pro with a dedicated GPU.

nVidia and ATI definitely have power saving features, but the increased performance (and image quality in video playback) is worth any sacrificed battery life. I know I'd rather have an "Estimated" 5 hours of battery life in my MacBook if it meant having a GeForce 8400M in it...

Ah, but the thing is, the vast majority of MacBook owners are people unconcerned with gaming performance. My mother, for instance, would certainly not want to give up battery life for a performance improvement that wouldn't actually do anything for her. Thus taking a substantial (15%) hit on battery life to appease a minority whose needs are, in theory, serviced by other models in the product line really doesn't make any sense. I love gaming, but I'm willing to accept that it's not an activity made for the low end machines.
 
In a way, we can't blame Apple for this...The GeForce 7600GT was an unusually high performance card for a midrange GPU. Both the Radeon HD 2600 and the GeForce 8600 GT have been somewhat disappointing in performance.

To keep the performance increase path 6600GT-7600GT, the 8600GT should be performing like a 7900GS/8600GTS and the HD2600XT like the X1950Pro. And that didn't happen:mad:
 
Hopefully as the drivers mature we'll the the 8600 and 2600 series cards giving better performance, but at the moment they aren't worth it unless you need DirectX 10 capability.
 

I agree. I don't think the 2600 is all that great, and the 7600GT was an excellent card for a long time. However, to be fair in XP the 7600 drivers were pretty mature, while they are still working on tweaking the 2600. It does ok in certain titles vs the 7600. Nothing to get overly excited about. However, they may be able to squeeze a few more frame rates out of it. Again nothing to drool over, but it can be acceptable to the casual gamer crowd.

Dark Messiah of Might and Magic
1600x1200 4xAA, 8xAF, max quality, HDR-R

HD2600XT 17.9 fps.
7600GT 10.6 fps.

Oblivion Elder scrolls
1024x768, no AA, 8xAF, max quality, HDR-R

HD2600XT 19.2 fps.
7600GT 10 fps.

http://www23.tomshardware.com/graphics_2007.html?modelx=33&model1=858&model2=716&chart=295

ATI/AMD is coming out with newer cards. The real question is whether Apple will update the imacs with improved gpus or will they do as they have done in the past and keep the same weak to mediocre graphics for longer than is necessary.:(
 
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