Why I think you will never see a Blu-ray player inside an Apple product...

[tvfilm]

IF HD DVD would have won over Blu-ray, Apple would have gone with HD-DVD players right away.

Its all about Sony's ownership of Blu-Ray that irks Apple and many other developers like Microsoft (hence also no Blu-Ray on Xbox)

HD-DVD was a way better technology and widely accepted by MS and Apple but the movie studios colluded to control the HD disk market of their own movies they release.

Interestingly studios can't own movie theaters per the 1948 Paramount Decree (they were caught doing illegal things by owning everything from movie making to releasing, so they were told they can't own theaters, that stands even to this day)

but now with Blu-ray HD market, the studios made sure to not lose control and colluded to control the HD disc home video market by using tactics like payola to beat HD-DVD.

So essentially they colluded and joined as one to control the market over tech savvy companies that would have advanced HD quicker like Toshiba, Apple and MS because they are not in the movie making business and only in it for the technology side of it. in other words, no financial incentives to make certain $$$ on movies because they didn't make the movies and don't care how much it sells.

Just the fact that ALL HD-DVD movies are REGION FREE, was the first sign that HD-DVD was for the technology first, while Blu-Ray always kept all 5+ unneeded regions in tact to make more money for studios. etc. etc. HD-DVD also had U-Control and many other advancements forthcoming, then Universal decided to stop making HD-DVD's and slowly killed HD-DVD by controlling the distribution , the same B.S. tactics that made them lose theaters ownership rights in the 40's because they were essentially caught purposely killing competition and colluding with each other, price fixing and so forth.

HD-DVD also had the licensing to all DVD releases, so it was a natural entry gate for consumers to adopt HD via their Dual Combo Format Discs because the licensing of DVD movies is still owned by Toshiba, the maker of HD-DVD. They could have released ALL movies again in a dual format combo to get people into HD quicker. Studios ALWAYS (even to this day) hated that they didn't own the DVD (logo) license.

Now they do with Blu-Ray and use it as a monopoly and to price fix the market. In other words, if Sony doesn't want you in , they won't let you sell Blu-Ray products, plus they get a cut from licensing which they didn't have before.


Sadly with the 2008 election, this issue was not at all important to many and why Blu-Ray just won using some really illegal tactics and had no govt. intervention stepping in to protect Toshiba, who were being punished simply because they don't make movies.

It was an unfair trade practice, collusion along with payola and I was surprise Toshiba did not sue left and right, neither did Microsoft (i guess because they know they had to make money and needed the studios regardless)


Not a HD-DVD fan boy, I love my Blu-Ray collection, I'm just speaking from some personal knowledge of the HD-DVD / BR war.

There was some massive corruption to kill HD-DVD via payola and underhanded tactics.

If this was the 1940's , the government would have stepped in but in 2008, it was nothing crucial for government at all.

Im sure Apple and MS are still not happy with the way it went down and why they both have still not supported Blu-Ray at all.

MS and Apple want Blu-Ray to fail .

They are sticking with downloads because they still have to provide some sort of studio content to it's users, of course.

But the way Blu-Ray won, believe me, MS and Apple are still not happy people (and rightfully so if you ask me)

I would never count on seeing a Blu-Ray player inside a Mac product or Xbox 360.

 

[Keebler]

i personally believe the sole reason why Apple doesn't want BR is self-serving:

money!

they're all about the digital files. they bought that massive server farm in NC which everyone is assuming will be the very backbone of their digital dload empire.

they no doubt see BR as a competitor to their dloads.

If they're always pushing gadgets who's main premise is to dload content, this makes sense - why support an alternative medium?

It's not about BR content being burned to BR - it's about not allowing their customers an easy option to go buy the latest movie on BR - they want that customer to dload the ATV version.

That is the main reason I do believe. I have no evidence - just my own pure speculation.

Otherwise, as being an innovating leader, we would have seen it already.

I don't buy the BR licensing issue at all - this is the same company who 'helped' (I don't want to say forced), major movie companies to start offering dloads. Apple could easily get that licensing changed to suit their needs if they wanted.

cheers,
keebler

 

[Captain Planet]

Well... never say never!

But, I do believe that digital file streaming is the way to go! They already are proving to do very well with iTunes... why add Blu-ray?

 

[TheNightPhoenix]

Just the fact that ALL HD-DVD movies are REGION FREE, was the first sign that HD-DVD was for the technology first, while Blu-Ray always kept all 5+ unneeded regions in tact to make more money for studios.

They actually ditched 2, the only have three regions A, B and C. Most Blu Ray are region free, I import all my Blu Ray from region A into B.

I wonder how well researched the rest of your rant is.

 

[viggen61]

IF HD DVD would have won over Blu-ray, Apple would have gone with HD-DVD players right away.

Its all about Sony's ownership of Blu-Ray that irks Apple and many other developers like Microsoft (hence also no Blu-Ray on Xbox)

I used to be a fan of Sony, but not so much any more. The format war was just the final nail in the coffin for me (I'm sure they're quaking in their boots...).

HD-DVD was a way better technology and widely accepted by MS and Apple but the movie studios colluded to control the HD disk market of their own movies they release.

Yes and no... Yes, because Toshiba insisted that all HD-DVD players adhered to a minimum spec, which INCLUDED internet access, decoding of lossless audio, and a few other things I can't recall. Essentially, all the stuff the BDLive (Profile 2.x) includes, but it was on the player from the get-go.

No, because once you have a BDLive Blu-ray player, you've got a player that's the equal to, if not superior of the HD-DVD.

I've been listening to the TWIT podcast "Home Theater Geeks", and some of the info I heard there was enlightening.

HD-DVD has somewhat less disc capacity than does Blu-ray. I didn't think that was a big deal at the time, but with 3D on the near horizon, it becomes important. The extra information that will need to be encoded had more headroom on the Blu-ray. It's possible that 3D couldn't have ever come to HD-DVD, or would have compromised the quality too severely.

Also, something I did not know, is that on the disc, HD-DVD is actually encoded at 1080i. That's right, Interlaced, not Progressive. That won't be a big deal to some (including me...), until you realize that, if you have the player's output set to 1080i, the processor inside the box actually takes the picture from 1080i, makes it 1080p, THEN makes it 1080i for output. Crazy. That tidbit was given by one of the guests on the podcast.

Interestingly studios can't own movie theaters per the 1948 Paramount Decree (they were caught doing illegal things by owning everything from movie making to releasing, so they were told they can't own theaters, that stands even to this day)

but now with Blu-ray HD market, the studios made sure to not lose control and colluded to control the HD disc home video market by using tactics like payola to beat HD-DVD.

So essentially they colluded and joined as one to control the market over tech savvy companies that would have advanced HD quicker like Toshiba, Apple and MS because they are not in the movie making business and only in it for the technology side of it. in other words, no financial incentives to make certain $$$ on movies because they didn't make the movies and don't care how much it sells.

I don't like the tactics Sony used to "win" the war, either. Ultimately, though, I think (now) the better technological format won.

What is truly appalling, though, is the fact that Sony and their minions paraded out a bunch of players at the beginning that they knew everyone would have to upgrade through purchasing new players (A Profile 1.0 player cannot be updated to Profile 2.0, because it lacks internal circuits!). Toshiba insisted on a level playing field as far as the players are concerned. They all have internet access, they all decode Dolby TrueHD and DTS HD (though they may do that internally, or pass it through). But if you paid $1,000 for a new Blu-ray player 3 or 4 years ago, you've got to shell out for a new one to get that capacity!

HD-DVD also had the licensing to all DVD releases, so it was a natural entry gate for consumers to adopt HD via their Dual Combo Format Discs because the licensing of DVD movies is still owned by Toshiba, the maker of HD-DVD. They could have released ALL movies again in a dual format combo to get people into HD quicker. Studios ALWAYS (even to this day) hate that they don't own the DVD (logo) license.

While I can see an advantage to the dual format discs, I don't think your take on licensing is correct. Fact is, each studio retains the rights to distribute their films in any manner they see fit.

Licensing is usually done for a particular format (especially these days, where there is a new format every few years), and for a finite amount of time. I used to work for a company that did LaserDiscs. They had the rights to a lot of classic films for distribution in the LD format. When DVD came along, it became apparent they didn't necessarily have the same rights for the DVD format.

For some films, their existing license was fine (perhaps it specified "Optical disc"). For others, not so much (perhaps it specified '12" optical disc'). I'm sure that when new contracts were let for licensing DVDs, the studios specified "DVD", and not just '5" Optical disc'...

Now they do with Blu-Ray and they now they totally use it as a monopoly and price fix everything. In other words, if Sony doesn't want you in , they won't let you sell Blu-Ray products, plus they get a cut from licensing which they didn't have before.

You might want to read up on the Blu-ray Disc Association. Sony is a member, of course, but there are many other companies involved, including Apple!

Prices are coming down, almost daily. Same thing happened with DVD, and if you are old enough, you'll also recall the early years of buying movies on tape. Typically, movies would be $49.99 and UP, with typical new release selling in the seventies or eighties (don't forget, that money was worth more then!). Pricing like that was why corner rental shops prospered in the late 80s. It wasn't until Paramount started selling movies at $19.99 that the movie sales industry really started to take off.

Today, you're getting a LOT more for your $19.99 on a Blu-ray disc than you ever got for $69.99 on VHS tape. And 100 plays from now, the Blu-ray will still look the same, while the VHS will be all washed out as the tape wears.

Im sure Apple and MS are still not happy with the way it went down and why they both have still not supported Blu-Ray at all.

MS and Apple want Blu-Ray to fail .

They are sticking with downloads because they still have to provide some sort of studio content to it's users, of course.

But the way Blu-Ray won, believe me, MS and Apple are still not happy people (and rightfully so if you ask me)

I will be shocked if Apple EVER releases a Blu-Ray player in any mac or product. Shocked. Same for Microsoft.

I really don't think that either want Blu-ray to fail. What would be the point? I don't think it's untrue when I hear that there are licensing issues. You have all sorts of issues when you play your Blu-ray disc through your iMac that you didn't have through the standalone player. HDCP prevents you from connecting two HDMI devices to a player. If you have an iMac, with an external monitor (or a Mac Pro, etc.) does your second monitor have to be disconnected when you slip a Blu-ray movie into the drive? I don't know if that's an issue, but that's one scenario where licensing could become a big issue.

Apple is on the BoD of the Blu-ray Disc Association. I'm sure they get a few pennies from each disc sold, so they really don't want it to fail.

I would never count on seeing a Blu-Ray player inside a Mac product or Xbox 360.

I won't speculate on the XBox, but I'm sure Apple will put a Blu-ray Disc in their Macs at some point. I don't think you'll ever see it in the Apple TV, though. That's not the direction they are going with that device.

 

[jaw04005]

Apple sided with Blu-ray long before the format war with HD DVD was won, which negates the vast majority of your rambling thread.

They joined the Blu-ray Disc Association as a member of the board of directors in March of 2005, long before any consumer-grade HD DVD or Blu-ray products were even on the market.

http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2005/mar/10blu-ray.html

Apple doesn't support Blu-ray for two reasons. The first is competitive. The iTunes Store sells HD content that competes with Blu-ray. The second is because of the draconian system-level DRM that would be required within the operating system to meet the licensing requirements.

By the way, it's the same DRM (AACS) that was used in HD DVD too. The only differences between Blu-ray and HD-DVD's DRM is AACS is mandatory for Blu-ray and optional for HD DVD and Blu-ray offers two optional forms of DRM, BD+ and BD Mark, on top of AACS.

All three were cracked practically as soon as they were introduced (thanks Slysoft). As for AACS being mandatory for private Blu-ray video discs, all major consumer Blu-ray disc burning applications (Toast, Encore, etc) have figured out how to make it work without being annoying to the consumer. So, AACS on Blu-ray for personal discs is really a non-issue anymore.

2008 is over. Blu-ray won, so get over it. You can always do what Bill Gates and Steve Jobs want you to do with Blu-ray, that's skip it.

"For us it's not the physical format. Understand that this is the last physical format there will ever be. Everything's going to be streamed directly or on a hard disk. So, in this way, it's even unclear how much this one counts." - Bill Gates, 2005

"Blu-ray is just a bag of hurt." - Steve Jobs, 2008

 

[NightStorm]

Also, something I did not know, is that on the disc, HD-DVD is actually encoded at 1080i. That's right, Interlaced, not Progressive. That won't be a big deal to some (including me...), until you realize that, if you have the player's output set to 1080i, the processor inside the box actually takes the picture from 1080i, makes it 1080p, THEN makes it 1080i for output. Crazy. That tidbit was given by one of the guests on the podcast.

Do you have a source for this other than a podcast on the TWiT network (I've never had much faith in most of the information presented by "experts" there)? I've encoded quite a few HDDVD titles via Handbrake and have never come across one that included interlaced video for the main feature.

Perhaps they were referring to the first-generation players that were only able to output 1080i to your television?

 

[Bodhi395]

Apple sided with Blu-ray long before the format war with HD DVD was won, which negates the vast majority of your rambling thread.

They joined the Blu-ray Disc Association as a member of the board of directors in March of 2005, long before any consumer-grade HD DVD or Blu-ray products were even on the market.

http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2005/mar/10blu-ray.html

I remember hearing about this back then and thinking that it would be a sure thing that Macs would then get blu-ray players in them in the next few years. It never happened and I'm really confused as to why Apple is still even on the Blu-Ray Disc Assocciations board of directors when it seems dead set against adopting blu-ray in its computers?? It's stated purpose is:

"The Blu-ray Disc Association (BDA) is responsible for establishing format standards and promoting and further developing business opportunities for Blu-ray Disc"

You think a good business opportunity for Blu-ray would be having blu-ray drives on apple computers, which you'd think would be simple since apple is on its board of directors! I'm very confused, and think either Apple should adopt blu-ray or stop supporting the blu-ray disc association.

 

[tvfilm]

viggen61,

Truly enjoyed your response. Thanks.

 

[Winni]

Im sure Apple and MS are still not happy with the way it went down and why they both have still not supported Blu-Ray at all.

MS and Apple want Blu-Ray to fail .

No, not really. Bill Gates said that BluRay will be the last physical medium, and Steve Jobs is also very well aware of the fact that BluRay is an obsolete, irrelevant technology. With the increasing availability of Internet broadband around the globe, both Microsoft and Apple can easily focus on digital distribution through their own web shops "Xbox Marketplace" and "iTunes Store".

Update: I just saw that jaw04005 already quoted Bill, so my post was once again redundant.

 

[Nermal]

I still believe that Apple should provide a Blu-ray option for people that want it. HD DVD is dead, and iTunes doesn't offer HD sales outside the US, so there's no other option for watching HD movies on a computer. I think it's stupid for Apple to promote systems such as the 27" iMac as great for playing HD movies, while not actually providing any way to do so.

 

[tvfilm]

I still believe that Apple should provide a Blu-ray option for people that want it. HD DVD is dead, and iTunes doesn't offer HD sales outside the US, so there's no other option for watching HD movies on a computer. I think it's stupid for Apple to promote systems such as the 27" iMac as great for playing HD movies, while not actually providing any way to do so.

Yea RIP HD-DVD.

Yea I hope they put Blu-ray in all Macs. HD is needed in all macs.

Sadly, I don't think they will ever do so after Sony won the way they won.

It's interesting what would have happened if HD-DVD won. I know MS and Toshiba would have gone nuts on the technology advancements of HD movies.

U-Control was an amazing feature.

 

[viggen61]

Apple doesn't support Blu-ray for two reasons. The first is competitive. The iTunes Store sells HD content that competes with Blu-ray.

Not yet, they don't! 720p isn't quite the same as 1080p!

The second is because of the draconian system-level DRM that would be required within the operating system to meet the licensing requirements.

I believe that's the crux of it all...

Do you have a source for this other than a podcast on the TWiT network (I've never had much faith in most of the information presented by "experts" there)? I've encoded quite a few HDDVD titles via Handbrake and have never come across one that included interlaced video for the main feature.

If I recall correctly, it was from HTG episode 8, and the guests were: Stacey Spears and Don Munsil of Spears & Munsil. Not just some talking heads, but folks who really work in the industry.

Perhaps they were referring to the first-generation players that were only able to output 1080i to your television?

Not from the way I heard it. They were specifically talking about how it was encoded on the disc.

viggen61,

Truly enjoyed your response. Thanks.

Anytime!