Why is 24p so choppy? And why do people keep using it?

[madmaxmedia]

How does the same frame rate make it look like film? Just because it's progressive? Because 24 fps just seems like film to you? If it's never going to be output to film, why not just shoot it in 30p instead? There are at least a dozen other reasons that your video camera can create a film look that have nothing to do with the frame rate.

Yet at the same time, 24p footage has a certain look that people psychologically associate with film. It's not better or clearer of course, it just feels more like film to most people.

'24p' has also become a misleading buzzword that people can latch onto thinking they can now shoot something that will suddenly look like 'Gladiator', but that's a different issue.

What is ironic about it is that big screen TV makers are now touting 120p in the more upscale sets. The TV interpolates a bunch of frames to not only eliminate pulldown but gives movies a decidedly 'non-film' look. I actually like the concept in general, but currently there are also too many artifacts introduced in the interpolation.

 

[P-Worm]

How does the same frame rate make it look like film? Just because it's progressive? Because 24 fps just seems like film to you? If it's never going to be output to film, why not just shoot it in 30p instead? There are at least a dozen other reasons that your video camera can create a film look that have nothing to do with the frame rate.

For me it's the motion blur that comes with shooting 24p. It's a lot more fluid.

P-Worm

 

[Scandals]

There are other reasons to use 24p even if you are going to stick with video/DVD. For example, not only does it provide one element necessary for the "filmic" look on video, it also uses 20% less frames, thus freeing up valuable space on a DVD or allowing for higher bitrates/quality. The same goes for streaming video - using less frames while still maintaining high quality has been a method of reducing the bandwidth and space needed for streaming video in the past. So why not shoot 24p instead of 30p and reap those benefits too?

 

[lighthouse_man]

It usually helps to reduce the choppiness if you don't hit the bong till your stash is out before you start watching the clip.

 

[David Schneider]

An update to my situation, if anyone is interested. Turns out it wasn't the camera or 24p to blame at all.

I was talking to my cinematographer about the problem, trying to pinpoint the issue, and he mentioned that he was pretty sure the problem didn't exist on earlier DVDs I'd output for him. It's been months since then, and I honestly couldn't remember if I'd ever watched those initial outputs. He dug one out, and sure enough, no strobing.

We realized that the only difference between the footage on those DVDs and the new, problematic ones, is color correction. To be sure, I output another pre-color corrected version and burned it to DVD. And whaddayaknow, no strobing.

I went back into Apple Color, and redid the corrections (pretty basic corrections, and I had the grades saved to make it quick) and re-rendered everything.

Burned to DVD, and... problem is gone.

So, somehow, Apple Color was causing the issue. I don't know why. I checked the settings on the initial Color project... everything looked right, the footage going out the same as it was coming in. Apparently something got screwed in the renders. I'd love to know how to prevent it from happening again, but at least I know where the problem was now, if not the why.

Thanks again for all the help here.

 

[highjumppudding]

24p

24p on my hv20 looks great (using apple method to convert to true 24p). it is a specific look/style that works mostly for film. 24p also helps with low light situations. there is also a huge difference in quality in the way you export the 24p from your NLE. some people don't know how to properly work with and export the footage, therefore it looks like crap.

 

[killmoms]

So, somehow, Apple Color was causing the issue. I don't know why. I checked the settings on the initial Color project... everything looked right, the footage going out the same as it was coming in. Apparently something got screwed in the renders. I'd love to know how to prevent it from happening again, but at least I know where the problem was now, if not the why.

Thanks again for all the help here.

Mmm, interesting. I'm wondering if it was bad field order (getting confused going in and coming out of Color again) or something of that nature.

 

[Rizvi1]

this is a handy thread I'd like to bookmark for future use. Right now, I own an HC1 and record mainly stand up around the DC area with it (both mine and other performers). But I'd like to work on a short film or something so am thinking of getting something better (The Canon XH-A1 seems like the best next step).

With my HC1, I just recorded the vid in HD, then took it to iMovie and downconverted since most people just wanted DVDs. Never really messed with any settings.

But since the HX-A1 will hopefully be used for something better, I'll watch out for some of the stuff mentioned here (although a lot of it is flying over my head right now)

 

[senseless]

24P is great for low light

I've had success with 24P in low light. My Canon HV20 looks so much better with 24P selected, as long as the camera is kept steady. Also, the playback may look worse on the camera LCD, than it really is.

 

[Mr B]

I'm trying to decide what framerate to edit a short doc we shot on Varicam. We could end up going to broadcast, web, possible even film, but dvd is the immediate need to try and get more funding. film is the least likely.

The producers of course don't know how it was shot so I'm trying to get a hold of the DP to see what 24p mode he shot in. I assume the varicam has 24 Normal as well as 24 Advanced modes? Should we definitely strongly consider working in a 23.98 timeline? WHat preset do I choose in fcp (the dvcpro hd ones aren't as obvious as the dvx100 inteneded presets)?

If I already captured some footage at 29.97 can I use compressor to remove the pulldown and be in line with any new footage I capture at 23.98 if I choose that route?

Sorry for so many questions

 

[Muncher]

I know my opinion isn't wanted here, but if the frame rate doesn't matter that much, wouldn't it be best to leave the video in the format it's shot in? Then you don't have to deal with all the duplicate frames and junk. (I know most or all of you have preferences, if I ever got serious about film, the first thing I'd do would be to pick an odd number as my preferred frame rate, like 37.14, but then that's why they don't let me near that stuff anymore ).

 

[bigbossbmb]

wouldn't it be best to leave the video in the format it's shot in? Then you don't have to deal with all the duplicate frames and junk.

No, leaving it as 29.97 will make him deal with the duplicate frames and junk.

Compressor may be able to reverse telecine the files. It's an option under Frame Controls. You should edit at 23.98.

 

[LethalWolfe]

I'm trying to decide what framerate to edit a short doc we shot on Varicam. We could end up going to broadcast, web, possible even film, but dvd is the immediate need to try and get more funding. film is the least likely.

The producers of course don't know how it was shot so I'm trying to get a hold of the DP to see what 24p mode he shot in. I assume the varicam has 24 Normal as well as 24 Advanced modes? Should we definitely strongly consider working in a 23.98 timeline? WHat preset do I choose in fcp (the dvcpro hd ones aren't as obvious as the dvx100 inteneded presets)?

If I already captured some footage at 29.97 can I use compressor to remove the pulldown and be in line with any new footage I capture at 23.98 if I choose that route?

Sorry for so many questions

If the DP shot in 720p24 then, AFAIK, you just select the DVCPro HD 720p60 Easy Setup in FCP.


Lethal