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Why is Big Sur so ugly?
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nickdalzell1
macrumors 68040
Sometimes I think we have such an instinct (resistance to change) for a reason and I'd rather not try and deny it. You can improve products without drastic changes to the UI design or whatever. You can issue security patches, under the hood changes and so on. Why does the UI have to change and become confusing (I still can't use an iPhone X or above since none of the gestures make sense!) just to improve important things such as security or adding features?
Personally, I can live with Big Sur fine if I can get the glossy traffic lights back. Especially in dark mode, the Mountain Lion icons look supreme compared with the default Big Sur icons. Major improvement. If I can fix the traffic lights, I don't have any other issues at all. The apps all look fine to me.
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usagora
macrumors 601
Well I'm glad not everyone is a slave to that instinct or else we'd be stuck in the stone age still! Also, I find when people say they "can't" use something, the reality is almost always they don't WANT to learn to use something. Again, I sympathize with what you're saying, but if you stay bogged down in that mindset, you're going to live in perpetual disappointment as technology marches on. We've got to me more open-minded and flexible! I honestly don't feel Big Sur is a "drastic" change. It's definitely different, but that's not a bad thing. I've yet to find anything significant I don't like about it (I say "significant" because minutiae like whether the "stoplight" icons are glossy or not is not why I use macOS - yes, attention to detail is important, but design choices like that are completely subjective).
Jonas07
macrumors regular
Another example:
macOS Catalina looks better, the icons, the menubar, the finder, etc are way better designed (graphics).
macOS Catalina looks better, the icons, the menubar, the finder, etc are way better designed (graphics).
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^^^^ What I like about pre-BigSur icons is their different shape. This helps me visually identify and tell apps quicker - not only do they differ by color, but also by shape. I personally find it harder on BigSur to identify the needed app icon on the deck because they are the same shape. I am not sure why all app icons need to be the same shape and what benefit does it bring to the user.
fisherking
macrumors G5
yes, because a slighly-rounded finder icon is confusing as could be. what's that image mean? 🤣
meanwhile, the extraordinary differences between JonasO7's pictures is terrifying... (also: 🤣)
personally, the big sur picture has the better aesthetic. but they're not different enough to cause the heartbreak some here seem to be experiencing.
"how's your mac working?" "i don't know, i'm heartbroken over the menu bar icon spacing" 🙄
Man, you're attitude is off-putting. You should work on your manners when you're talking to someone. It's ok when you disagree but you seem like a really arrogant guy.
Apple_Robert
Contributor
I think a lot of people on the forums don't like OS change. They get comfortable with what they have gotten used to and anything new seems to trigger hyperbolic posts or actions that seem to go to extremes (re: not updating software).
fisherking
macrumors G5
i've been attacked on these forums a lot, for contradicting the viewpoint of a thread. and, i don't think pointing out the absurdities here is the same as having bad manners. but that's how this all works; we all have opinions. so i hear you, and, as a courtesy, will endeavor to be a little... gentler in the future. 👍
nickdalzell1
macrumors 68040
It's not that I don't like OS change. It's "Change for the sake of change" that irks me. You can improve security, add features, and all that matters without changing the visuals for no real reason.
If I opposed change, why would I move from a mechanical or cheap digital watch to a smartwatch like the Apple Watch? Why did I move from a VCR to the Apple TV 4K?
I'm fine with relevant and important change that improves things. How does making the OS look different and more like a mobile device life-changing? How is it not simply 'change for the sake of change?'
For that matter, why can't we have six-wheel cars or dare I say it, let's ditch the steering wheel for a touchscreen! See how it makes sense to leave some things alone?
Love the other poster above with the 'we'd be stuck in the stone age!' mindset yet again! I will be perfectly fine and happy using what I like while 'tech marches on' and you can do what you want. If we all acted and thought the same, it'd be a really boring world. Whatever happened to that 'Think Different' motto Apple and its fans once clung to?
As for me not updating apps, if they work, why do it? The changes make no sense anyway. How would you like it if someone came into your home and rearranged your furniture, or replaced your appliances because they thought they were too old? Same reason why I don't want to update apps and have to relearn everything again. It got old after a few times. If you can't downgrade the app or the OS if you hate it, it makes sense to simply avoid it.
But one question remains unanswered: Why did we have to go from skeuomorphic to flat in the first place? What does it do other than sear my retinas or make some actions which were once clear suddenly become confusing (text based buttons, weird gestures, etc)
It's not that I really can't learn the iPhone X. It's that the gesture system makes no sense and it becomes a frustrating experience. I expect x, get y. After a few times it gets very frustrating and I regret the purchase and go back to my 6S.
The home button was perfect. It did what you expect. Touch ID works faster for me than Face ID. Why does it have to change? Why can't I have what I want? Well, I did. The iPhone 6S. Serves me needs fine. You do you, I'll do me. I just got some AirPods Pro. I didn't even want to try true-wireless buds and then I just out of curiosity got AirPods 2 and loved them. Sometimes it works out. Other times, I return the purchase and use what worked fine previously. Doesn't mean I never move forward. I just move forward when I feel it's necessary when the tech works best for my use-case. Some here might like if I just up and bought whatever comes out every year. But not only is that unnecessary, but it's also unsustainable.
There's really nothing unethical or wrong about choosing for yourself when you should or should not upgrade or update. I don't really understand the mindset that everything new is perfect and older devices are either security risks or akin to being Amish. Makes me laugh though when I see such posts. I loved when I'd use my HTC Thunderbolt at Kroger a year ago and someone thought it looked neat and asked where I could get one. I told them it's a 2011 phone and no longer made. They thought from the lockscreen weather animation and shiny design that it was a new phone. Likely they just never saw one before, but it was a unique experience.
Either way, at best people like me are a minority and unlikely to 'hold back tech progress' the way so many in this and other tech forums assume. I'm surprised folks here who criticize me as 'living in the stone age' and my not updating apps to save frustration as 'hyperbolic' don't troll the PowerPC or iOS 6 forums and start making fun of those folks.
If I opposed change, why would I move from a mechanical or cheap digital watch to a smartwatch like the Apple Watch? Why did I move from a VCR to the Apple TV 4K?
I'm fine with relevant and important change that improves things. How does making the OS look different and more like a mobile device life-changing? How is it not simply 'change for the sake of change?'
For that matter, why can't we have six-wheel cars or dare I say it, let's ditch the steering wheel for a touchscreen! See how it makes sense to leave some things alone?
Love the other poster above with the 'we'd be stuck in the stone age!' mindset yet again! I will be perfectly fine and happy using what I like while 'tech marches on' and you can do what you want. If we all acted and thought the same, it'd be a really boring world. Whatever happened to that 'Think Different' motto Apple and its fans once clung to?
As for me not updating apps, if they work, why do it? The changes make no sense anyway. How would you like it if someone came into your home and rearranged your furniture, or replaced your appliances because they thought they were too old? Same reason why I don't want to update apps and have to relearn everything again. It got old after a few times. If you can't downgrade the app or the OS if you hate it, it makes sense to simply avoid it.
But one question remains unanswered: Why did we have to go from skeuomorphic to flat in the first place? What does it do other than sear my retinas or make some actions which were once clear suddenly become confusing (text based buttons, weird gestures, etc)
It's not that I really can't learn the iPhone X. It's that the gesture system makes no sense and it becomes a frustrating experience. I expect x, get y. After a few times it gets very frustrating and I regret the purchase and go back to my 6S.
The home button was perfect. It did what you expect. Touch ID works faster for me than Face ID. Why does it have to change? Why can't I have what I want? Well, I did. The iPhone 6S. Serves me needs fine. You do you, I'll do me. I just got some AirPods Pro. I didn't even want to try true-wireless buds and then I just out of curiosity got AirPods 2 and loved them. Sometimes it works out. Other times, I return the purchase and use what worked fine previously. Doesn't mean I never move forward. I just move forward when I feel it's necessary when the tech works best for my use-case. Some here might like if I just up and bought whatever comes out every year. But not only is that unnecessary, but it's also unsustainable.
There's really nothing unethical or wrong about choosing for yourself when you should or should not upgrade or update. I don't really understand the mindset that everything new is perfect and older devices are either security risks or akin to being Amish. Makes me laugh though when I see such posts. I loved when I'd use my HTC Thunderbolt at Kroger a year ago and someone thought it looked neat and asked where I could get one. I told them it's a 2011 phone and no longer made. They thought from the lockscreen weather animation and shiny design that it was a new phone. Likely they just never saw one before, but it was a unique experience.
Either way, at best people like me are a minority and unlikely to 'hold back tech progress' the way so many in this and other tech forums assume. I'm surprised folks here who criticize me as 'living in the stone age' and my not updating apps to save frustration as 'hyperbolic' don't troll the PowerPC or iOS 6 forums and start making fun of those folks.
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usagora
macrumors 601
I personally don't find it hard to identify apps on Big Sur, but I also know that they're not restricted to rounded square shapes, as I have a few third party apps that are the same shape they always used to be (not rounded squares). I believe in past versions of macOS you could customize app icons - even Apple ones. Is that still possible in Big Sur?
nickdalzell1
macrumors 68040
It is possible-I've done it. But it's been made harder due to the way the file system is more protected. Simply turning off SiP isn't enough.
Made Big Sur easier to swallow for me either way. I've had issues with the flatter icons (especially the Finder icon) ever since Yosemite.
Made Big Sur easier to swallow for me either way. I've had issues with the flatter icons (especially the Finder icon) ever since Yosemite.
usagora
macrumors 601
I think perhaps we're both reading too much into each other's comments. I have no issue with you using what you want and I'm not saying you by your lonesome are going to hold back tech progress. But you also need to realize the things you're calling "changes for the sake of changes" are very subjective and not everyone sees it that way. You even mentioned the "glossy" stoplight icons. That's simply an aesthetic thing that you could easily call "change for the sake of change" back when they introduced "Aqua", yet you seem to place high importance on it. When it comes to the appearance of things in an OS, it's a highly volatile subject and always will be.
nickdalzell1
macrumors 68040
It is subjective I agree. That's why I think there should be a Classic as well as a Modern choice available. Or support for themes. Not locking down customization more and more in a lame attempt to prevent it.
There was a Classic 9 mode when OS X released, for those not ready for the changes. I really wished when iOS 7 came out, that a Classic 6 mode was there for those not ready yet for such a drastic and unnecessary (to me) change.
I loved Aqua. If possible I'd bring Cover Flow back to my iPhone. Those things were things that were familar to me. It made no sense to take them away in the first place since they didn't really harm anyone. Some things can be left alone and updates can still happen. Not everything has to change just because it looks different. My eyes prefer depth and realism especially in this retina display world. Why would I prefer reading black text on white everywhere? Just hurts my eyes. Can't imagine why we got such a high resolution display and we're drawing a UI straight out of 1984.
I know you wouldn't want me changing your interior furniture or appliances to what I feel is necessary, so on the same token people shouldn't try to force me to accept this new flat UI world that seems never-ending. It does nothing for me but make me frustrated and feels more like work than something I enjoy using. It's not a hard thing to accept that one wants to enjoy using what they buy. I surely didn't want iOS 7 when it came out, it self-installed. In a way it's partially my fault--as no Apple OS update ever bothered me in the past, so I naturally thought it'd be no different that time, and left auto-updates on. After being burned by that, I started getting skeptical about any app with the update changelog saying 'reimagined app interface' or 'new UI design'. Now, I just avoid it entirely. I found plenty of skeuo replacements for my iPhone and I don't even update those since they might get flattened.
There was a Classic 9 mode when OS X released, for those not ready for the changes. I really wished when iOS 7 came out, that a Classic 6 mode was there for those not ready yet for such a drastic and unnecessary (to me) change.
I loved Aqua. If possible I'd bring Cover Flow back to my iPhone. Those things were things that were familar to me. It made no sense to take them away in the first place since they didn't really harm anyone. Some things can be left alone and updates can still happen. Not everything has to change just because it looks different. My eyes prefer depth and realism especially in this retina display world. Why would I prefer reading black text on white everywhere? Just hurts my eyes. Can't imagine why we got such a high resolution display and we're drawing a UI straight out of 1984.
I know you wouldn't want me changing your interior furniture or appliances to what I feel is necessary, so on the same token people shouldn't try to force me to accept this new flat UI world that seems never-ending. It does nothing for me but make me frustrated and feels more like work than something I enjoy using. It's not a hard thing to accept that one wants to enjoy using what they buy. I surely didn't want iOS 7 when it came out, it self-installed. In a way it's partially my fault--as no Apple OS update ever bothered me in the past, so I naturally thought it'd be no different that time, and left auto-updates on. After being burned by that, I started getting skeptical about any app with the update changelog saying 'reimagined app interface' or 'new UI design'. Now, I just avoid it entirely. I found plenty of skeuo replacements for my iPhone and I don't even update those since they might get flattened.
Yeah, you hit the nail on the head. And everything about Big Sur is just slightly slower - whether it be your eyes quickly skimming for an app icon, the fact that lesser information density = more scrolling and/or eye movement, the way that the smaller global text size, especially of drop down menus, makes it harder to discern clickable elements quickly, etc.
And it's especially annoying, since all these changes are actually rather subtle, and not quite severe anough to cause enough commotion to incentivise them to do anything about it. In an effort to make everything pretty, they've purposely treaded a fine line between a design that most people will tolerate in terms of functionality (especially 'slower' users), and what is clearly aesthetics prioritised over functionality. A practice I absolutely detest.
(Also, their 'space everything out approach for future touch devices' logic is dumb. Now we have an OS that is 'Jack of all inputs, master of none').
fisherking
macrumors G5
you realize, of course, that all of this is your opinion, your experience. big sur here is not 'slightly slower', and app icons are easily identifiable (no one, for example, will confuse the finder with photos).
personally, i don't find the OS 'pretty'; i'd say that older OS versions, with bubbly traffic lights, etc... would fit that word better.
not arguing your right to your opinion, just pointing out that it's not everyones...
Icons are the least of my worries and is a mostly subjective issue. My main gripe is with the OS spacing that is designed for both touch and pointer, which dare I say is objectively a poor design decision since now the OS is neither 'optimised' for pointer, or for touch!
All my other problems can be argued as the usual to and fro of OS design preference. I.e. if there was an option to revert to a more reasonable information density (and also increase global font sizes back to normal), then I would be indifferent to Big Sur's release.
fisherking
macrumors G5
it doesn't feel any different, in that respect, working on my macs, then it did in catalina, or before catalina... etc etc. and there are plenty of ways of increasing font size (ie 'view size' in the view menu).
if you stop stressing about perceived 'information density' and focus on your work, life, etc... you'll be fine... as are most macusers, here in the real world.
You people don't take criticism of your Apple overlords well, do you...
And you telling me 'Stop stressing, you'll be fine, as are most mac users, here in the real world'. Who said I'm stressing about it lmao. Very patronsising, and I never even hinted that this has any sort of catastrophic bearing on peoples' lives. This is a forum for discussing the 'menial' matter that is macOS, and whether you like it or not, it is normal discourse to complain and argue points about a tool people use for their daily work. Of course, "we'll be fine", but I (in my opinion) don't like Big Sur's information density because I (in my opinion) feel that it slows me down. You are entitled to your opinion, and yes, I do live in the real world believe it or not...LOL
I don't think view size in the view menu is a practicable solution for every application.
Bruninho
Suspended
I don’t think that Big Sur is ugly at all. Has some good and bad parts, yes. For me it’s a step into a new design.
People kept complaining about the OS design all the time: When it’s more of the same, they say Apple cannot innovate; When they change it, people say its ugly. People is never satisfied...
Anyway, I can agree that the icons are ugly (I have only recently started messing with OS9 and I started to think that the OS9 icons are much more nicer than current ones). But the whole system design, I see some good concepts - I admit that I am a fan of minimalism. I just don’t like the rounded dock and the transparent menu bar.
Someone suggested something like Classic mode. I definitely agree. MacOS used to have themes in the past. The change was probably a marketing decision - someone wanted the OS to be recognizable everywhere and custom themes made it difficult.
People kept complaining about the OS design all the time: When it’s more of the same, they say Apple cannot innovate; When they change it, people say its ugly. People is never satisfied...
Anyway, I can agree that the icons are ugly (I have only recently started messing with OS9 and I started to think that the OS9 icons are much more nicer than current ones). But the whole system design, I see some good concepts - I admit that I am a fan of minimalism. I just don’t like the rounded dock and the transparent menu bar.
Someone suggested something like Classic mode. I definitely agree. MacOS used to have themes in the past. The change was probably a marketing decision - someone wanted the OS to be recognizable everywhere and custom themes made it difficult.
fisherking
macrumors G5
got it. we both have our opinions. and i have my own issues with some of what apple does (nothing relevant to the GUI tho). but sorry that you feel slowed down by the changes in the GUI, and (i believe, anyway) that you'll adapt; probably just in time for what comes with the next major OS. so, all good. 👍
Apple_Robert
Contributor
In 5 months, people can beta test the new MacOS so, no real need to get overly focused on Big Sur.
Lol its fine, ur response wasn't that bad reading it again lol. I'm just too used to seeing Apple cultists in these forums shouting down any criticism of Apple as 'negativity', and I'm allergic to it!!!
xXRainKingXx
macrumors regular
I’m hoping Big Sur is the ugliest iteration of this new UI and things improve with each OS update like they did after iOS 7 and Yosemite.