Why is everybody so obsessed with RAM?

[TightLines]

Let’s say you’re right. Which specific anti trust legislation is Apple in breach of?

There are 3 basic Anti-Trust laws that prohibit business practices that unreasonably deprive consumers of the benefits of competition, resulting in higher prices for inferior products and services. I suspect Apple could be in violation of two of them.

The Sherman Antitrust Act Passed in 1890, the law prevented groups from dictating, controlling, and manipulating prices in a particular market.

The Clayton Act defined as illegal certain business practices that are conducive to the formation of monopolies or that result from them.

 

[TightLines]

That's wholly fair, I'd just never expect the free market to exert the type of pressure necessary for the correction of such behavior.

Although I'll challenge you on the reach of the free market, the sad truth being as it is, we could still go and use Windows shitboxes or Linux if we'd truly stand on principle and use our capitalist rights, alas.

There remains some hope as legislation on right to repair develops. Being that most of what we are discussing is of the essence of this debate. Convenience sadly is apple's bread and butter.

True - we could all go and migrate to another proven monopolist - Microsoft - and lose our prior investment in Apple products. And yes, the right to repair stuff, which Apple is already thumbing its nose at… have your seen their consumer solution to iPhone repairs?

RIP past Monopoly!

 

[Howard2k]

There are 3 basic Anti-Trust laws that prohibit business practices that unreasonably deprive consumers of the benefits of competition, resulting in higher prices for inferior products and services. I suspect Apple could be in violation of two of them.

The Sherman Antitrust Act Passed in 1890, the law prevented groups from dictating, controlling, and manipulating prices in a particular market.

The Clayton Act defined as illegal certain business practices that are conducive to the formation of monopolies or that result from them.

Thanks. I’m somewhat familiar with them. I’m not sure how you see a specific breach?

Genuinely interested. I just don’t see it that way. Don’t get me wrong, I’d rather pay less for upgrades too, but I’m interested to know why you think this is anti trust specifically vs simple economics.

 

[TightLines]

Thanks. I’m somewhat familiar with them. I’m not sure how you see a specific breach?

Genuinely interested. I just don’t see it that way. Don’t get me wrong, I’d rather pay less for upgrades too, but I’m interested to know why you think this is anti trust specifically vs simple economics.

Who are you going to pay for providing the upgrades, again? Name two.

 

[Howard2k]

Who are you going to pay for providing the upgrades, again? Name two.

Who am I buying a brand new Tesla from?

Apple.

Or Tesla.

 

[scatopie]

View attachment 2020230
Can you tell me to open something and some websites that would use all of the 8GB?

Umm, I don't know if anyone said anything or noticed but...this screenshot shows your computer is under huge memory crunch, my friend. Did you notice the area where it says "Swap Used: 2.18 GB"? That means the stuff currently running already exceeded your RAM capacity by 2 GB, and it is now using swap memory with your SSD (hard drive). That's not good, because now your SSD's lifespan is being drastically degraded with it being used as back-up ram. You always need to make sure you are NEVER using swap memory, if you value your SSD. Close out programs until it's gone!

 

[JahBoolean]

True - we could all go and migrate to another proven monopolist - Microsoft - and lose our prior investment in Apple products. And yes, the right to repair stuff, which Apple is already thumbing its nose at… have your seen their consumer solution to iPhone repairs?

RIP past Monopoly!
View attachment 2020664

From what I'm aware of, it's more of a placeholding exercice from their legal departement in prevision of the impending litigation on the subject rather than anything productive.

 

[JahBoolean]

Who are you going to pay for providing the upgrades, again? Name two.

I get the essence of the argument, but as manufacturing processes tend to get more integrated, the containerization approach to hardware will die. Either that or enforce some degree of standardization through regulation, and regulating such a fickle area as bleeding edge technology is not quite the idea, incentives maybe ?

 

[TightLines]

Who am I buying a brand new Tesla from?

Apple.

Or Tesla.

You’re not buying the whole computer in this context - only upgrading some of the components… and doing so after you own it outright… so, in your context, you can go to Tesla, or a third party who makes the same component as Tesla… kind of like any auto manufacture allows and the auto-parts stores who sell these replacement parts…

So try again… who are you going to pay for providing the components to facilitate the upgrades to your Apple products again?

 

[Howard2k]

You’re not buying the whole computer in this context - only upgrading some of the components… and doing so after you own it outright… so, in your context, you can go to Tesla, or a third party who makes the same component as Tesla… kind of like any auto manufacture allows and the auto-parts stores who sell these replacement parts…

So try again… who are you going to pay for providing the components to facilitate the upgrades to your Apple products again?

Apple doesn’t sell the components. That’s the entire point of your argument and yet you’re stating that in your context it’s helpful to pretend they do (not buying the whole computer in this context). You ARE buying the whole computer. That’s Apple’s entire schtick. The components are not user upgradeable. And incidentally, aside from cryptographic limitations they actually are aren’t they? - there was a guy who replaced the attached memory with larger chips and it worked IIRC. But regardless, Apple’s position is what it is. You cannot replace RAM as an average technically competent consumer. You’re buying it with a fixed amount and there’s clearly no confusion about that. Your argument is not “Other manufacturers allow consumer replacement and I thought Apple did”. Your argument is “Other manufacturers allow consumer replacement and Apple does not”. You’re obviously aware of this limitation and Apple documents it on their website.

I think that’s the root of your issue. And I get it. You’re obviously technical and you know that most manufacturers allow consumer upgrades. But Apple does not, so your context (buying components) is irrelevant, IMO. Apple sells the products with pre-defined specifications. As do many other product manufacturers. It’s clearly documented, and you understand it.

Sincerely, I wish you were right. Perhaps the courts will declare that you are, but I’m not hopeful.

 

[UBS28]

For workloads where a 8GB MBA is fine, so is an iPad in most cases. I'm just saying.

16 GB RAM is the bare minimum for a laptop.

I got 8GB RAM on my 12.9 M1 iPad Pro, because there aren't workloads that will exceed it.

 

[stinkhorn9]

I can see the point in lots of RAM if you're doing one singular memory intensive process like 3D rendering or 8K video editing, but many people just like having a lot of RAM so they can be basically inefficient with resources. They'll whine and complain when their computer throttles with 200 tabs open in a browser they can't possibly need opened all at once, and half their apps open and minimised in the background.

In this vein, I tend not to really multi-task (or leave loads of stuff open), full stop. I'll maybe have a couple of apps / tabs open at any one time - all related to the task in hand - which I'll then quit. It's one reason why for some things, my 2009 Mini with 4gb RAM is still is reliable as it was 13 years ago.

 

[Malus120]

Wow. Nine pages already. Clearly this thread touched a nerve (and rightly so).
As someone on the 16GB+ of Ram or bust side of the argument...

I honestly, in good faith, cannot for the life of me understand everyone who's like "8GB works great for me." This isn't meant to be taken as an insult or that I think anyone's lying but... what is your workflow like? Because in my experience macOS (or Windows) + a good number of browser tabs, a communication app (Zoom or Teams, Slack is a bit better), maybe a PDF in Preview, or documents in Word or Excel and... boom nothing strenuous going on but it makes an 8GB machine stutter, become less responsive and uncomfortable to use.

Not saying its unusable but I'm really curious how people use their devices where 8GB is adequate. Is it being used like a Tablet (primarily one app at a time, not a lot of apps left running the background?)

 

[stinkhorn9]

Wow. Nine pages already. Clearly this thread touched a nerve (and rightly so).
As someone on the 16GB+ of Ram or bust side of the argument...

I honestly, in good faith, cannot for the life of me understand everyone who's like "8GB works great for me." This isn't meant to be taken as an insult or that I think anyone's lying but... what is your workflow like? Because in my experience macOS (or Windows) + a good number of browser tabs, a communication app (Zoom or Teams, Slack is a bit better), maybe a PDF in Preview, or documents in Word or Excel and... boom nothing strenuous going on but it makes an 8GB machine stutter, become less responsive and uncomfortable to use.

Not saying its unusable but I'm really curious how people use their devices where 8GB is adequate. Is it being used like a Tablet (primarily one app at a time, not a lot of apps left running the background?)

Yes!

 

[antiprotest]

I don't care if I have 1024GB or 2048GB of RAM.

 

[Cognizant.]

I don't care if I have 1024GB or 2048GB of RAM.

Okay.

 

[R!TTER]

Not saying its unusable but I'm really curious how people use their devices where 8GB is adequate.

Well my Android phone has 12GB DRAM besides 256GB of NAND storage & 7GB "virtual" RAM. Just in case someone comes up with this suck it up, buttercup shtick! Apple can & really should provide better priced upgrades to memory & storage, their margins are still insane.

 

[Alex Cai]

Because people don’t want to spend 1500RMB or $150 for stuff that they don’t think it’s worth
I think the 16Gb is super damn “significant”, it prevents SSD swaps and get the best out of the speed of Apple silicon.
It’s even more important than more SSD storage since there are lots of external drives(fast because of thunderbolt 4) and it’s cheaper than built in SSD.

I have a stubborn friend Simon, he bought a MBA with M1 4 months ago and I suggested him to wait(he’s not urgent to get one). And he couldn’t understand why he needed 16Gb of ram.
Now he’s angry at Tim Cook, Craig, and John ternus.

 

[MNLondon]

I too have a MacBook Air and have problems with 8 GB of Ram , apparently. I wonder if Apple updated the Activity Monitor app when they created M1. As I understand it, M1 means that the ram is used in a different way, but I don't know?
I use Final Cut Pro and have started to do some 4K video editing. I found that when the software is working on stabilisation, sound, colour, that Ram is maxed out, it just takes a long time to finish the processes. I tried using iMovie instead, but the same issues exist, and I'm wary of wearing out my SSD because of all the swapping needed, again apparently.
I've never had the computer crash on me yet, but I'm thinking about getting the base model of Apple Studio,. so I hopefully will never have problems with RAM again.

Any thoughts guys?

 

[azentropy]

Many if not most people 8GB of RAM is plenty, so leaving the base configuration at 8GB is fine. My complaint is that the step up stock (non BTO) configuration is still 8GB (8/512) instead of 16GB (16/512). When Apple announced the new Air and mentioned that it could be expanded to 24GB I thought for a minute that the base configuration was going to be 12GB now which would have been a decent step up after all these years of 8GB as the base.

 

[Bob_DM]

No they shouldn't.

My daughter has the bottom end M1 MacBook Air. She uses it for browsing, mail, reminders, calendar, GoodNotes, watching videos, Apple music, spreadsheets etc. Oh and Playing Sims. It is a perfectly adequate machine for her and never goes near any sign of memory pressure. Her disk is about 50% full.

In fact I'll go as far to say that even I can quite happily exist on that machine as it was mine until I got the base model 14" MacBook Pro. The only thing that even dented it slightly was Adobe Lightroom. I was doing some quite heavy editing in Pixelmator with no problems too. Bear in mind I run a small business off this thing doing consultancy.

I only bought the 14" MBP because it was shiny and I wanted it so I can go ooh and ahh and nod approvingly at it. I don't need it at all.

When I buy a Mac I'm buying into the ecosystem not just the lump of computer and I expect to pay a bit more for it. It's not free to run a massive stack of cloud applications and deliver several years of OS updates and desktop apps. So I expect the bottom end model to be more expensive than comparable PCs etc so I don't even make the comparison. But that needs to fit in a chunk of money that people understand (under <$1000 / £1000) and Apple need to make a good profit so they can make huge investments in development (like M1 processors, their own 5G chipset etc).

Back to topic, I think Apple today should provide 16/512GB for base models at current prices. Maybe offering a 8/256 as BTO for less?

Many if not most people 8GB of RAM is plenty, so leaving the base configuration at 8GB is fine. My complaint is that the step up stock (non BTO) configuration is still 8GB (8/512) instead of 16GB (16/512). When Apple announced the new Air and mentioned that it could be expanded to 24GB I thought for a minute that the base configuration was going to be 12GB now which would have been a decent step up after all these years of 8GB as the base.

I said before 16/512 GB should be the base, reading trough the tread I think maybe not for the Air. So for base air oké with 8/256. But the pro’s and up should really start at 16/512 GB for about the current pricepoint. Avoiding BTO delays …

 

[kenaustus]

Since I updated my original "computer" to 64 Mb with a 48 Mb pack back in the early '80s I generally don't worry about RAM - I just get the extra and forget it.

It might be interesting to see if iHorseHead gets his hands on a loaded up Mac for a fortnight. Is he more productive? Does he feel the pain when he has to go back to his current rig? Maybe it takes on hands experience with more power to change your mind and if a fortnight doesn't do it then nothing will.

 

[TSE]

I'm not obsessed. Don't you dare insult my RAM. Apple is, otherwise they wouldn't be hoarding it. Apple, give me RAM! I need more RAM.

RAM!

 

[hagjohn]

I think people could start educating themselves about motherboards, video cards, CPU's (SOCs since Apple has gone to system on a chip), RAM & storage and how they work and work together as a whole system. I've been building computers since 1986 or so and you never cheap on these things because one can effect the others performance and the overall performance of the system.

 

[sgtaylor5]

Wow. Nine pages already. Clearly this thread touched a nerve (and rightly so).
As someone on the 16GB+ of Ram or bust side of the argument...

I honestly, in good faith, cannot for the life of me understand everyone who's like "8GB works great for me." This isn't meant to be taken as an insult or that I think anyone's lying but... what is your workflow like? Because in my experience macOS (or Windows) + a good number of browser tabs, a communication app (Zoom or Teams, Slack is a bit better), maybe a PDF in Preview, or documents in Word or Excel and... boom nothing strenuous going on but it makes an 8GB machine stutter, become less responsive and uncomfortable to use.

Not saying its unusable but I'm really curious how people use their devices where 8GB is adequate. Is it being used like a Tablet (primarily one app at a time, not a lot of apps left running the background?)

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/why-is-everybody-so-obsessed-with-ram.2348420/post-31195067 for a start on how someone can use 8 GB of RAM just fine.

In my company of one, I don't need a "communication app", because an email or Apple Messages (iMessage or SMS) or a phone call works for my clients. I prefer native apps over Electron or browser-based apps.