Why is it ok for other Apple products to use Flash?

aarong50

macrumors regular
Original poster
Aug 22, 2009
110
0
I know how apple feels about Flash on the Iphone/Ipad but if it's such a problem and it's so buggy - why do they allow their macbooks, imac's etc to use it?

I love the new Ipad and I am going to pre-order but I can't believe 100% it's an issue of stability. It has to be a reflection of money being made in the app store right?

Macbook, Macbook Pro, Imac (any OS10 Mac product) = Flash good to go.

Iphone, Ipad (both use the app store) = Flash too unstable.

Seems like they are feeding us a load of bs.
 

Peace

macrumors Core
Apr 1, 2005
19,467
3,832
Space--The ONLY Frontier
I don't normally discuss stuff with newbies but I have to agree with you.

When Jobs "supposedly" said the reason Flash wasn't on the iPhone etc. was due to it being the number one reason Mac's crash I had to laugh.

I agree. WHY does he allow it on all Mac's.
 

MacMini2009

macrumors 68000
May 22, 2009
1,729
0
California
If they didn't have flash on Macs, no one would buy them. iPhones and iPads are not main computers where you absolutely need flash but would be nice to have.
 

master-ceo

macrumors 65816
Sep 7, 2007
1,494
3
The SUN
Because they want you to shop @ the **** store. MBP etc.. they can't control your media, ipad - iphone - apletv they can.
 

ScaryRobot

macrumors member
Jan 24, 2010
31
0
I know how apple feels about Flash on the Iphone/Ipad but if it's such a problem and it's so buggy - why do they allow their macbooks, imac's etc to use it?

I love the new Ipad and I am going to pre-order but I can't believe 100% it's an issue of stability. It has to be a reflection of money being made in the app store right?

Macbook, Macbook Pro, Imac (any OS10 Mac product) = Flash good to go.

Iphone, Ipad (both use the app store) = Flash too unstable.

Seems like they are feeding us a load of bs.
See here.

Apple did [plugin sandboxing in Snow Leopard] for two reasons. Serlet’s stated reason on stage was “crash resistance”, as mentioned above. As for why such crash resistance was worth implementing, Serlet explained that, based on data from the Crash Reporter application built into Mac OS X — the thing that asks if you’d like to send crash data to Apple after a crash — the most frequent cause of crashes across all of Mac OS X are (or at least were, pre-Snow Leopard) “plugins”.

Serlet didn’t name any specific guilty plugins. Just “plugins”. But during the week at WWDC, I confirmed with several sources at Apple who are familiar with the aggregate Crash Reporter data, and they confirmed that “plugins” was a euphemism for “Flash”.

In other words, in Apple’s giant pile of aggregate crash reports — from all app crashes on all Macs from all users who click the button to send these reports to Apple — Flash accounts for more of them than anything else.
 

aarong50

macrumors regular
Original poster
Aug 22, 2009
110
0
I wonder why they didn't build crash resistance into this platform?

I think it would have made a lot of the people buying more satisfied with the product.

I use my 3gs daily without flash but I think on something as big as the Ipad I would use it more.

Oh well we'll just hafta wait and see.
 

t0mat0

macrumors 603
Aug 29, 2006
5,425
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I wonder why they didn't build crash resistance into this platform?

I think it would have made a lot of the people buying more satisfied with the product.

I use my 3gs daily without flash but I think on something as big as the Ipad I would use it more.

Oh well we'll just hafta wait and see.
I'd say not having Flash there is a decent step towards decreasing crashes...

I don't normally discuss stuff with newbies but I have to agree with you.

When Jobs "supposedly" said the reason Flash wasn't on the iPhone etc. was due to it being the number one reason Mac's crash I had to laugh.

I agree. WHY does he allow it on all Mac's.
Why? Steve's got the iPhone and iPad lined up to kill Flash. If there's less Flash around generally, that affects Macs and iPads, and iPhones alike. Flash does cause a lot of crashes.
 

Peace

macrumors Core
Apr 1, 2005
19,467
3,832
Space--The ONLY Frontier
I'd say not having Flash there is a decent step towards decreasing crashes...



Why? Steve's got the iPhone and iPad lined up to kill Flash. If there's less Flash around generally, that affects Macs and iPads, and iPhones alike. Flash does cause a lot of crashes.

That doesn't answer my question of WHY does he allow it on Macs if it's such a crasher.
 

ScaryRobot

macrumors member
Jan 24, 2010
31
0
I wonder why they didn't build crash resistance into this platform?
Several reasons.

1) The specific mechanism they used (spinning off a separate process) requires resources they might not want to expend on a smaller device.

2) Flash games aren't going to work very well on a device without a keyboard and mouse, and Flash video, given its performance on desktop Macs, would probably run poorly as well.

3) Flash has general performance problems in terms of delaying page loads, etc. Don't tell me this isn't true. Apple doesn't want that dragging down the fluidity of the interface, which is a major part of what makes the device feel "magic" (it's a silly word, but based on first-hand accounts it describes something very real and, I suspect, addictive). Apple would be handing control over a very important part of their user experience to Adobe.

4) Apple is deliberately trying to use its market clout to kill Flash because they prefer several open technologies which could take its place.
 

GorillaPaws

macrumors 6502a
Oct 26, 2003
930
6
Richmond, VA
I wonder why they didn't build crash resistance into this platform?
Because unlike OS X, this platform is engineered from the start to be the computer for the non-computer-user. That person doesn't understand what's happening when plugins crash, and think the iPad is somehow screwing up. It doesn't "just work" magically like advertised and the illusion is ruined for them.

Plus there would likely be significant performance hits involved with sandboxing plugins into their own processes on such a device.
 

sumzero

macrumors member
Jan 30, 2010
70
0
Forest Lake, MN
I don't normally discuss stuff with newbies but I have to agree with you.

When Jobs "supposedly" said the reason Flash wasn't on the iPhone etc. was due to it being the number one reason Mac's crash I had to laugh.

I agree. WHY does he allow it on all Mac's.
Would you buy a computer that couldn't use flash?

Apple thinks because its quasi-portable it is ok to exclude and they are probably right.
 

Peace

macrumors Core
Apr 1, 2005
19,467
3,832
Space--The ONLY Frontier
Would you buy a computer that couldn't use flash?

Apple thinks because its quasi-portable it is ok to exclude and they are probably right.
That still doesn't explain why Jobs supposedly said that Flash was the number one reason for crashes on Mac's.

If it's so bad and it's the number ONE reason. WHY allow it ?
 

nick9191

macrumors 68040
Feb 17, 2008
3,270
1
Britain
I know how apple feels about Flash on the Iphone/Ipad but if it's such a problem and it's so buggy - why do they allow their macbooks, imac's etc to use it?

I love the new Ipad and I am going to pre-order but I can't believe 100% it's an issue of stability. It has to be a reflection of money being made in the app store right?

Macbook, Macbook Pro, Imac (any OS10 Mac product) = Flash good to go.

Iphone, Ipad (both use the app store) = Flash too unstable.

Seems like they are feeding us a load of bs.
Because the Macs use powerful Core 2 Duo/i7 processors and can (just about) handle it?

Wait that seems too logical for this forum. No you're right Apple are feeding us BS. Steve hates us and does these things just to annoy us.
 

gibbz

macrumors 68030
May 31, 2007
2,691
91
I use my 3gs daily without flash but I think on something as big as the Ipad I would use it more.
I hate Flash as much as anyone, but I agree with this point. I think on a 9.7" display, people are going to want their websites of choice to work ... such as Hulu.

That still doesn't explain why Jobs supposedly said that Flash was the number one reason for crashes on Mac's.

If it's so bad and it's the number ONE reason. WHY allow it ?
I'm guessing because they can't regulate what people put on their desktop OS like they can on their mobile platform.
 

bbadalucco

macrumors 6502
Jan 4, 2009
459
0
I don't normally discuss stuff with newbies but I have to agree with you.
Best line I've ever read...who do you think you are? I hope it makes you feel good about yourself knowing you don't "normally discuss stuff with newbies." What a joke
 

juanster

macrumors 68020
Mar 2, 2007
2,237
0
toronto
I'd say not having Flash there is a decent step towards decreasing crashes...



Why? Steve's got the iPhone and iPad lined up to kill Flash. If there's less Flash around generally, that affects Macs and iPads, and iPhones alike. Flash does cause a lot of crashes.
I somewhat agree with you, it is a decent decrease towards crashes, but then he AJAX/JS should be in there too. They seem to crash my systems even more than flash does.. I am okay with no flash in the iPad/iPhone sinc ethey are mobile platforms but I will not be buying it because of that. And HTML5 just isnt ready or even close to flash to replace it yet. It will be, just not now.

No big deal, but my only problem is that the first reason for not having flash was battery life/heavy cpu for the iPhone. Now Sj is saying that is because it's buggy riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight....HTML5 is the future. But HTML5 at the moment is a huuuuge mess.
Just all lame excuses for not letting flash in the platform.

If theyd ont wanna do it for personal reasons, then don't do it, that's fine there is many sheep like us that will follow and purchase anyways. Just don't lie as if you are talking to a bunch of morons. You do realize WE programmers and designers create the web right? We do know whats going on...
 

aarong50

macrumors regular
Original poster
Aug 22, 2009
110
0
I don't think Steve hates us I just think they want to sell us content and that's ok.

I would just like to have the option. Make it a downloadable content from the app store with a nice big disclaimer. If I want to use buggy old flash I should atleast have the choice. And if I don't like it or it destroys my experience I can easily uninstall it
 

bpd115

macrumors 6502a
Feb 4, 2003
809
42
Pennsylvania
I somewhat agree with you, it is a decent decrease towards crashes, but then he AJAX/JS should be in there too. They seem to crash my systems even more than flash does.. I am okay with no flash in the iPad/iPhone sinc ethey are mobile platforms but I will not be buying it because of that. And HTML5 just isnt ready or even close to flash to replace it yet. It will be, just not now.

No big deal, but my only problem is that the first reason for not having flash was battery life/heavy cpu for the iPhone. Now Sj is saying that is because it's buggy riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight....HTML5 is the future. But HTML5 at the moment is a huuuuge mess.
Just all lame excuses for not letting flash in the platform.

If theyd ont wanna do it for personal reasons, then don't do it, that's fine there is many sheep like us that will follow and purchase anyways. Just don't lie as if you are talking to a bunch of morons. You do realize WE programmers and designers create the web right? We do know whats going on...
It's both buggy and a battery life/CPU hog.
 

pcs are junk

macrumors 65816
Sep 28, 2009
1,044
0
maybe because they cant control what we can and cant download on our macs, but on our iphones they can to an extent. flash player doesnt come with macs...you have to download it from adobes website.
 

ScaryRobot

macrumors member
Jan 24, 2010
31
0
I somewhat agree with you, it is a decent decrease towards crashes, but then he AJAX/JS should be in there too. They seem to crash my systems even more than flash does.. I am okay with no flash in the iPad/iPhone sinc ethey are mobile platforms but I will not be buying it because of that. And HTML5 just isnt ready or even close to flash to replace it yet.
Frankly, standards based alternatives are ready to replace Flash in WebKit, for everything except maybe action games (SVG performance might not be quite that good yet, though I haven't seen it tried).

This means there's nearly nothing that web developers can do on the desktop that they can't do on the iPad... but they might have to implement everything twice for a while because the iPad doesn't have Flash and non-WebKit browsers don't all have decent HTML5/SVG/JS/CSS3, etc. (Firefox is decent on SVG and JS.)
 

mooblie

macrumors 6502
Apr 23, 2009
367
52
The Highlands, Scotland
Because unlike OS X, this platform is engineered from the start to be the computer for the non-computer-user. That person doesn't understand what's happening when plugins crash, and think the iPad is somehow screwing up. It doesn't "just work" magically like advertised and the illusion is ruined for them.
So by that logic: "the illusion is also ruined for them" if it doesn't "just work" when they're trying to view a video on a news site.

Oh wait.
 

aarong50

macrumors regular
Original poster
Aug 22, 2009
110
0
maybe because they cant control what we can and cant download on our macs, but on our iphones they can to an extent. flash player doesnt come with macs...you have to download it from adobes website.

You don't think they could have made os10 just like the iPhone software? They chose to not make os10 restricted it didn't just happen that way. They could start tomorrow including an app store with os10 and only allow apps to be installed from here on out