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zorinlynx

macrumors G3
May 31, 2007
8,167
17,681
Florida, USA
That is (and if it isn't is should be) a rule of thumb across the board. Digital zoom ALWAYS degrades the image tremendously. I never use it; just get closer to the subject if possible, and if not possible, then you just have to deal with it because the alternative is a picture you wouldn't want anyway.

What I don't get is why Apple and other phone makers do digital zoom like this:

Step 1: Capture the image.
Step 2: Crop the image to the zoom level.
Step 3: Enlarge the cropped image to the size of the original captured image.

Why not just:

Step 1: Capture the image.
Step 2: Crop the image to the zoom level.

and that's it? You end up with a smaller picture, pixel-dimension wise, but lose no quality!
 

Winona Northdakota

macrumors 6502a
Dec 27, 2010
580
1
What I don't get is why Apple and other phone makers do digital zoom like this:



Step 1: Capture the image.

Step 2: Crop the image to the zoom level.

Step 3: Enlarge the cropped image to the size of the original captured image.



Why not just:



Step 1: Capture the image.

Step 2: Crop the image to the zoom level.



and that's it? You end up with a smaller picture, pixel-dimension wise, but lose no quality!


Simply cropping a digital photo is not digital zoom then. Digital zoom is not the same as optical zoom, yet it is a cheaper way to create a zoom effect with digital camera. What you are suggesting is simply cropping. Simply cropping maintains the pixel integrity of the original source, yet isn't zooming in at all.
 

zorinlynx

macrumors G3
May 31, 2007
8,167
17,681
Florida, USA
Simply cropping a digital photo is not digital zoom then. Digital zoom is not the same as optical zoom, yet it is a cheaper way to create a zoom effect with digital camera. What you are suggesting is simply cropping. Simply cropping maintains the pixel integrity of the original source, yet isn't zooming in at all.

If you don't have optical zoom, zooming and cropping are EXACTLY the same thing.

The only difference is that "zooming" in the iPhone scales the picture up to the same size as the full sized picture, which is a completely useless gesture; the resulting image contains no more information and looks worse. Plus, it can be scaled up when viewed, saving disk space if you didn't blow it up.
 

Winona Northdakota

macrumors 6502a
Dec 27, 2010
580
1
Why is it so impossible for me to take consistently good photos with my 6?

If you don't have optical zoom, zooming and cropping are EXACTLY the same thing.



The only difference is that "zooming" in the iPhone scales the picture up to the same size as the full sized picture, which is a completely useless gesture; the resulting
image contains no more information and looks worse. Plus, it can be scaled up when viewed, saving disk space if you didn't blow it up.


Zooming and cropping are not the same.

http://graphicssoft.about.com/cs/digitalimaging/f/digitalzoom.htm

http://photo.net/nikon-camera-forum/00WkGB

Cropping doesn't resize the image to fit the canvas.
 
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Winona Northdakota

macrumors 6502a
Dec 27, 2010
580
1
Not sure your point, he was totally right.



The camera, when you "zoom" in, actually just crops a small chunk of the picture out, THEN it blows it up to resize it.


That is not simply cropping. My point is that cropping and digital zoom is not exactly the same thing, because it is not.
 

T-Will

macrumors 65816
Sep 8, 2008
1,042
433
Looks like Apple is looking for help in the camera software department.
 

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dotme

macrumors 65816
Oct 18, 2011
1,191
251
Iowa
Do 3rd party camera apps (Like Camera+) also create the "Monet effect" on the 6? Or is it present just with the stock camera?
 

SK360

macrumors 6502
Jun 7, 2010
278
110
Beaver, PA
Attached is a picture of my car from our decently lit work garage in the middle of the afternoon... Pic looks great when not at full size.. Also attached is a fullsize crop of muddiness.
 

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T-Will

macrumors 65816
Sep 8, 2008
1,042
433
Attached is a picture of my car from our decently lit work garage in the middle of the afternoon... Pic looks great when not at full size.. Also attached is a fullsize crop of muddiness.

Awesome Monet filter! :p
 

tgi

macrumors 65816
Aug 29, 2012
1,331
330
Attached is a picture of my car from our decently lit work garage in the middle of the afternoon... Pic looks great when not at full size.. Also attached is a fullsize crop of muddiness.

Sadly, I'm not impressed with my 6 Plus camera, or Apple's noise reduction algorithm. Whatever is to blame, it sucks.
 

Poob Bubes

macrumors 6502a
Apr 16, 2007
540
175
Why is it so impossible for me to take consistently good photos with my 6?

Has anyone noticed a green dot caused by lens flare? I've only seen it when shooting sunset shots.
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1412097183.367059.jpg
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1412097299.085145.jpg
 

Bentox

macrumors member
Sep 13, 2014
93
28
Has anyone noticed a green dot caused by lens flare? I've only seen it when shooting sunset shots.
Yep... it's been mentioned a few times and it is what it is.
Luckily, you can see it before you take the pic, so you can try to strategically maneuver it out of the way :)
 

tgi

macrumors 65816
Aug 29, 2012
1,331
330
It's purposeful, but the purpose is not to create fake bokeh, it's to eliminate grain. And it does, you will notice iPhone 6 images are much less grainy than iPhone 4/5 photos. The problem is they just went way too far with it. These are classic overaggressive noise reduction artifacts, the kind that cheap cameras with tiny sensors have been using for years to fight sensor noise.

The good news is there's nothing wrong with the camera hardware, and this can easily be fixed in software. The problem is, will Apple do it? What I worry about is they've decided everyone wants small images because all they want are selfies, Instagram, Facebook type photos, that will be viewed on phones. And this bad noise reduction actually is effective when viewing photos at a small size, such as on a phone screen because the smudging artifacts get scaled down to not be noticeable. But it looks absolutely terrible if you view it larger.

At the very least, I hope they add some kind of option or setting to allow the user to reduce or eliminate the noise reduction (which can be done later with filters). It sucks because it appears that developers don't even have control over this (it gets applied before the application gets the camera data), because I'm seeing the same thing with photos taken in VSCOCam.

I'm noticing the same with photos taken in VSCOCam as well. So general consensus is that it's software related? An exchange would be pointless then, correct?

Take a look at my full res photos if you get a chance, let me know your thoughts.

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/1792938/
 

Poob Bubes

macrumors 6502a
Apr 16, 2007
540
175
Why is it so impossible for me to take consistently good photos with my 6?

Yep... it's been mentioned a few times and it is what it is.

Luckily, you can see it before you take the pic, so you can try to strategically maneuver it out of the way :)



I've just been using this program to remove it when it occurs. It works really well.



http://macphun.com/snapheal

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1412108967.070614.jpg
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1412108980.693552.jpg
 

HiRez

macrumors 603
Jan 6, 2004
6,250
2,576
Western US
I'm noticing the same with photos taken in VSCOCam as well. So general consensus is that it's software related? An exchange would be pointless then, correct?

Take a look at my full res photos if you get a chance, let me know your thoughts.

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/1792938/

Yep, it is likely software. It is in processing the raw image data off the camera sensor, a noise reduction algorithm is applied which "smears" (essentially averages) small local pixel groups to average out grain (bright and dark specks) into more uniform values. This is something all cameras do (unless you have a RAW file straight off the sensor), it's just Apple has cranked this up to a high level in the iPhone 6 and in my opinion, they missed an acceptable balance.

Fine details get lost, particularly in areas of nearly-same values, such as foliage, cement, sky, etc. It's noticeable because, for example, on an expanse of cement, it's only the micro detail that is very similar to grain that gives it its character. If you remove that detail, you have what looks like a big sheet of beige rubber or plastic instead. And similar for fine details in leaves, for example the veins, or bark texture on branches. It also tends to show itself poorly in out of focus areas.

What we don't know if how deep this software is buried. I suppose it is possible it's actually backed into "firmware" on the camera chip, and is there even before the operating system get it. But more likely it is in the iOS software and could theoretically be adjusted. But, the fact that other apps like VSCOCam are getting the already-baked-in processing, it seems it is pretty fundamental and Apple doesn't want to give app developers access to pre-processed data. Just have to hope they see they went to far and back it off a bit in an update, or give us an option in Camera Settings (personally I would prefer more grain and less noise reduction).

I looked at your photos, and yes, that is the same effect I'm seeing in all iPhone 6 photos. Some iPhone 6 shots look excellent, some look terrible, but that over-aggressive noise processing is present to some extent in all of them. It's definitely more noticeable and more annoying in some shots than others, it really just depends on the shot: what kinds of textures are in the scene, the lighting, the focus, what ISO the camera chose for the shot, etc. And how large you view the image. Most of them look good on a small (phone) screen, but you notice the processing more on a larger screen (desktop, tv, print, etc.). Plus, some people are just a lot more sensitive to noticing (me) than others. I'm sure many people don't notice and don't care.
 

soundxplorer

macrumors member
Sep 21, 2014
55
1
Attached is a picture of my car from our decently lit work garage in the middle of the afternoon... Pic looks great when not at full size.. Also attached is a fullsize crop of muddiness.

Interesting. For anyone familiar with Photoshop, it looks very similar to the "Crystallize" filter effect under the Pixelate menu. I hope they update the software with a way to turn this effect off.
 

pjstrrns

macrumors member
Sep 20, 2014
32
0
Yep, it is likely software. It is in processing the raw image data off the camera sensor, a noise reduction algorithm is applied which "smears" (essentially averages) small local pixel groups to average out grain (bright and dark specks) into more uniform values. This is something all cameras do (unless you have a RAW file straight off the sensor), it's just Apple has cranked this up to a high level in the iPhone 6 and in my opinion, they missed an acceptable balance.

Fine details get lost, particularly in areas of nearly-same values, such as foliage, cement, sky, etc. It's noticeable because, for example, on an expanse of cement, it's only the micro detail that is very similar to grain that gives it its character. If you remove that detail, you have what looks like a big sheet of beige rubber or plastic instead. And similar for fine details in leaves, for example the veins, or bark texture on branches. It also tends to show itself poorly in out of focus areas.

What we don't know if how deep this software is buried. I suppose it is possible it's actually backed into "firmware" on the camera chip, and is there even before the operating system get it. But more likely it is in the iOS software and could theoretically be adjusted. But, the fact that other apps like VSCOCam are getting the already-baked-in processing, it seems it is pretty fundamental and Apple doesn't want to give app developers access to pre-processed data. Just have to hope they see they went to far and back it off a bit in an update, or give us an option in Camera Settings (personally I would prefer more grain and less noise reduction).

I looked at your photos, and yes, that is the same effect I'm seeing in all iPhone 6 photos. Some iPhone 6 shots look excellent, some look terrible, but that over-aggressive noise processing is present to some extent in all of them. It's definitely more noticeable and more annoying in some shots than others, it really just depends on the shot: what kinds of textures are in the scene, the lighting, the focus, what ISO the camera chose for the shot, etc. And how large you view the image. Most of them look good on a small (phone) screen, but you notice the processing more on a larger screen (desktop, tv, print, etc.). Plus, some people are just a lot more sensitive to noticing (me) than others. I'm sure many people don't notice and don't care.

Having an option to mess with the noise reduction would be a great addition. I worry though that this issue has gone fairly unnoticed and if apple will really see it as something to look into.

Found this also.
http://www.reddit.com/r/iphone/comments/2hom60/camera_test_iphone_6_vs_iphone5_too_much_noise/
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/1786611/
 
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iPhone7ate9

macrumors 6502a
Jun 22, 2014
720
0
I've come to the conclusion that Apple is taking normal exposure and overexposing the shadows so they aren't dark (for example trees) and using noise reduction to hide it
 
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