Why is mac not as popular as windows?

[Yamcha]

Mac OS is not as popular as Windows probably because of the fact that they are expensive, we pay a premium for Apple products, when I say that I mean you could get a Windows equivalent machine for much less, and no Mac's do not use any higher quality components apart from the aluminum & glass, Macs today use the same chipset, processor, motherboard, hard drive, gpu, lcd as PC's do..

Second reason has to be the lack of support for Mac OS, especially when it comes to games, even the games ported to Mac perform poorly, and the simple fact is probably due to the games being developed with Windows in mind..

Also you could get the same work done on Windows, so why pay more? There will be a lot of people using Windows that will have issues with viruses and spyware, at the same time there will be advanced users like myself who will have no issues whatsoever..

That being said, yes I do love Mac OS, I use it on my PC, and I've had two different iMacs before, I loved them, but at the same time there isn't much flexibility in terms of upgrading on Macs, can't over clock, can't use a multi-gpu configuration etc.. Which is why I have a Hackintosh..

A lot of people argue that Mac uses unibody design and aluminum etc to justify the price tag on Macs, but let me remind everyone that the original white Macbook used plastic and wasn't a unibody design yet the cheapest one was still $999, where as you could've have gotten a Windows equivalent for $400+..

 

[snberk103]

Quote:
Originally Posted by snberk103
I'm constantly saying to my colleagues now that "It's a Mac thing" instead of trying (unsuccessfully) to explain how I did something....

Psst.. no one *actually* cares, it's just when they see you coming, rather than oh dear lord another long and boring lecture about how cool and special you think you are because of your brand choice of computer, they've just found a way to quickly defuse you to make the encounter less tedious. It's okay- it happens with all fanbois who think they're cool and special because of the brand of computer they use.

I'm not sure how you managed that leap of logic... though taking a quote out of context helps.

And I certainly don't go on " ... long and boring lectures ..." unless I'm being paid and then my students generally rate me rather highly.

Actually, the "It's a Mac thing" comes after a Windows user have asked me how I've created an effect. If they are interested, I'm happy to talk them through the steps (but only if they are interested). For a fellow Mac user it's usually something like Open up the Inspector, go to the Text tab, go to the More tab, look for the Baseshift and play with the settings, then blue the Shadow and the Lighten the Opacity.... For a Windows user: A) I don't know the commands, so B) I'm forced to describe the process - and they will start describing the 3 menus and sub-menus they will navigate and the Help topic they'll look up for step #4.

So, in situations like that, when I say "It's a Mac thing." I'm saving both of us a long and boring conversation. If the document gets complimented - and to be honest, most of the documents are just presented and accepted, I'm only talking about the exceptions here - and if a Windows user then thanks me for all hard work, and long hours, I've put into it then if I know and like them I will tease them with a Mac just works type comment. And if I don't know them that well, I just nod and say Thank You.

And for the record, if asked for my advice, I don't automatically suggest "Get a Mac" - and I never advise someone without being asked first. I find out what their budget is, what they do, what they would like to do, and what their tech guru uses (personally, I believe that the best system for most casual users is the system the person they're going to go to for help uses. But that's just me.)

 

[BornAgainMac]

it's not enterprise friendly

I think this is where Chrome will take away from Windows someday. Windows PCs are really not Enterprise at all. Worst then Macs. Windows is a great gaming OS.

 

[Zaap]

... long and boring lectures ...

No way, really dude? You're just so special! No, really, tell us more! Wow, you're so unique! How did you ever come up with all these amazing ideas that no one else has ever thought of? Your choice of computer is so unique and impressive! No, no, don't bother telling us more about how rich and famous your amazing computer choice has made you. I'm sure we mere mortals wouldn't understand....

 

[ctsoxfan]

Psst...no one cares what you think either. If you're happy with your $400 DELL be happy and shutup.

What's comical is that you took the time to read it.

Hey, Wal-Mart is having a sale. Go cash your welfare check and stock up.

Thank you for proving the point of a lot of posters in this thread - you have illustrated the typical Mac fanboi better than I ever could.

 

[Zaap]

Ah, why do we bother to even try to tell them? All the fake posturing, the pretentiousness, the grand proclamations delivered from on high, the hollow braggadocio can be pretty entertaining. Kind of like a really cheesy rap video.

 

[snberk103]

No way, really dude? You're just so special! No, really, tell us more! Wow, you're so unique! How did you ever come up with all these amazing ideas that no one else has ever thought of? Your choice of computer is so unique and impressive! No, no, don't bother telling us more about how rich and famous your amazing computer choice has made you. I'm sure we mere mortals wouldn't understand....

Oh wait, I get it....

 

[McRCN]

Looks like Mac is becoming very popular....

http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2011/05/22/where-in-the-world-are-mac-sales-growing-everywhere/?

 

[MagnusVonMagnum]

Don´t you have sympathy for Apple, being alone in the competition? Yet so many people still bashing them?

Why would anyone have sympathy for them? They CHOOSE to do it that way, much to the chagrin of some of us that would LIKE more hardware choices than they offer. I'm still waiting for a mid-price tower. Otherwise, I'm going Hackintosh on my next desktop precisely because I refuse to pay $2400+ for something I can get for $1200 elsewhere (no I don't need memory protection, etc; I need a 4 or 8-core with a high-end graphics card so I can game in Windows and do whatever else I need to do in OSX).

And no .. Mac is not overpriced, they might be expensive, but properly priced. They don´t make cheaper version of their hardware. They dont make Macbook Air from puny plastic, bad display or sluggish keyboard just to sell them at $600.

I can't agree on either. I've had far more kernel panics on my 2008 MBP than my Dell Mini 10V running the same version of OSX. I was lucky, though. My 2008 MBP has neither the yellow-screen issue or the broken NVidia GPU (yet, knock on wood). But then I almost forgot about the keyboard problem they had about that time as well (where the first letter wouldn't register on many MBPs; they FINALLY offered a software fix after about 2 years of complaints).

No, I'm afraid Apple hardware isn't any more robust than many other manufacturers, maybe less so. It is certainly more expensive in many cases. It was (maybe is) comparable with some models for identical hardware, but like in the case of the Mac Pro, MOST consumers don't need things like memory protection and they don't offer a model without it for less, so it's a wash. You also cannot get many options like Blu-Ray period, which makes it feel cheap. They also RIP YOU OFF with BTO hard drive and ram options (I'm sorry, but a 2TB internal SATA drive does not cost $250-300 anywhere on Earth, which is what it must be when it's $150 more to get the 2TB over the 1TB on a new iMac). You can get a 2TB Barracuda right now for $79 and keep your 1TB default drive if it weren't for concerns changing the drive on iMacs...)

See Samsung, they´ve just launched sub notebook 9 series to compete with MBA. Can Samsung sell them for less than $1000? Not a chance, some even much pricier than MBA because they use Sandy Bridge ULV processor.

The MBA is pointless, IMO. So it's thinner. Big deal. I want Mac Netbook that's small and portable. No such thing. They released the iPad for $600+ instead. I bought a Dell Netbook for $299 (with 802.11N card included) and put OSX on it and have a full blown OSX machine with the same size screen, 160GB hard drive, 1GB of ram (both far more than the iPad comes with), full Ethernet and USB ports and keyboard and I'm typing on it right now with a 1MBit connection at a hotel and can use its wireless card to give me a wireless router connection to my iPod Touch as well! It has a 6-hour usable battery life as well and I've had exactly one kernel panic on it (yesterday as a matter of fact after being on constantly for 7 days straight; I've had countless panics on my MBP and PowerMacs). WTF would I want an iPad or a MBA? The latter is faster, but I have a MBP at home as well and it's thin enough.

See? Apple only make good quality product, and many people pissed off because they feel Apple dont go low, or cheap, some cant afford them, some feel Mac is overpriced, but you dont see the whole picture yet.

Use it, keep it for a while and then you´ll realize .. well it´s worth the price

Keep drinking that Kool-Aid my friend....

I don't understand how this translates to Windows being more powerful. Do you have a computer science degree? Other than DirectX11 I can't think of any Windows feature that could be misconstrued to make Windows "more powerful than OS X."

How about up-to-date graphics drivers? Apple has a tendency to get a GPU working and then leave it forever unchanged. NVIDIA updates and improves their drivers for Windows constantly (even their Linux drivers are vastly faster than Apple's). This might help explain why the exact same game on the same machine running both operating systems runs 2x or more faster in Windows than in OSX (even ones without Cider). But then Apple doesn't care about keeping OpenGL up-to-date either. Lion is supposedly to finally go full blow 3.x, but OpenGL has had 4.x out for some time now and it's much better.

1) It wasn't a particularly long sentence, and anyway this is a forum, I don't care about my grammar online.
2) I don't doubt some professionals could do what I do on Windows, however they might well not be as effective at all the tasks I do. I edit Video and use Digital Compositing software - While solutions exist on Windows, having the ability to use Apple Software (Final Cut Studio, Logic Studio and Shake 4) as well as the cross-platform software (AVID, AfterEffects, ProTools etc), means I can use each software for what it's best at, and whichever product fits best into the workflow Im using that particular day. I'm also working through my Computer Science degree, and need access to UNIX tools for my course, as well as access to the UNIX Terminal, as thats what the instructors all use, so its where all the tutorials etc are aimed, (I also write Mac Applications on occasion, although I don't count this really as I'm equally skilled and able to write the same apps for Windows if I choose too)
3) It wasn't judgemental in any way,. I don't particularly care what you use, if you like Windows, go ahead buy a Windows PC. I couldn't care less. I only tell people about the Mac if I hear them moaning about something for a while and I know that a Mac doesn't have the issue. I don't run around wearing an Apple shirt everyday hating on Windows. I even own a relatively new Windows TabletPC (September 2010, so under a Year old), and use it for something the Mac isn't good at, ie OneNote and Digital Notetaking (No, the iPad just doesn't compare, I cant write Mathematics out on an iPad, so I got a TabletPC as it was the better solution for what I wanted). As far as I'm concerned, if Windows is best for what you do (ie if you spend your entire life in Microsoft Office), then keep ploughing on with it, but if your trying to do a lot of media work, which is what a lot of consumers actually do on their personal machines now most companies issue laptops, then a Mac might suit your needs better (Or may be cheaper once you purchase all the software to replace iLife for Windows.. but this depends on the OEM etc etc), or if your in Academia, where UNIX software is easily the most common. (For instance years of research programs, all for UNIX, all run on a Mac or under Linux but rarely under Windows - for me its easier having these on my local machine then having to login to a overstressed central UNIX computer to use them, speedier too)

I'm sorry, but I couldn't stand to read very far into your giant run-on blob of text there. Perhaps you could look up what a paragraph is and try to break up your text into readable lengths of text in the future if you expect anyone to actually read it? Otherwise, you'll continue to be ignored. Professionals write professionally.

 

[nefan65]

Ah, why do we bother to even try to tell them? All the fake posturing, the pretentiousness, the grand proclamations delivered from on high, the hollow braggadocio can be pretty entertaining. Kind of like a really cheesy rap video.

Then why do you bother? Shut up and move on. You just like to hear yourself talk. You know nothing, and your posts support that...

 

[nefan65]

Thank you for proving the point of a lot of posters in this thread - you have illustrated the typical Mac fanboi better than I ever could.

Not a fanboy. Just don't like people who come to a Mac/Apple thread spouting how another brand is better. If you like it, buy it and shut up. You sound jealous because you cant get something nice. Work hard, save your $$, and you will...

 

[Repo]

I think this is where Chrome will take away from Windows someday. Windows PCs are really not Enterprise at all. Worst then Macs. Windows is a great gaming OS.

I almost wish OSX did get a foothold over Windows for Enterprise (if Apple hadn't been so restrictive, among other things) even if that meant more security threats for the OS due to high volume/exposure. At least Apple would spend more time developing it, and listening to users.

 

[chrismacguy]

I'm sorry, but I couldn't stand to read very far into your giant run-on blob of text there. Perhaps you could look up what a paragraph is and try to break up your text into readable lengths of text in the future if you expect anyone to actually read it? Otherwise, you'll continue to be ignored. Professionals write professionally.

Last time I checked the Numbered Points broke it down perfectly sufficiently - treat each one as a paragraph and your good to go. Just because I haven't added hundreds of line breaks to make it nice and simple for grade-schoolers to read, doesn't mean its unprofessional. I recommend you go and lookup how you write numbered lists, as last time I checked it was exactly as I have done it. Also, don't try to insult me by labelling me as unprofessional to cover up for your inability to realise my list matches most style guides perfectly, as far as the forum engine allows, it won't work and if anything makes you look about as professional as your average wombat.

 

[nefan65]

Don't bother, he's trolling. You say black, he'll say white. Waste of time. He's like that annoying kid. Ignore him and he'll go away.

Quote:
Originally Posted by snberk103
I'm constantly saying to my colleagues now that "It's a Mac thing" instead of trying (unsuccessfully) to explain how I did something....


I'm not sure how you managed that leap of logic... though taking a quote out of context helps.

And I certainly don't go on " ... long and boring lectures ..." unless I'm being paid and then my students generally rate me rather highly.

Actually, the "It's a Mac thing" comes after a Windows user have asked me how I've created an effect. If they are interested, I'm happy to talk them through the steps (but only if they are interested). For a fellow Mac user it's usually something like Open up the Inspector, go to the Text tab, go to the More tab, look for the Baseshift and play with the settings, then blue the Shadow and the Lighten the Opacity.... For a Windows user: A) I don't know the commands, so B) I'm forced to describe the process - and they will start describing the 3 menus and sub-menus they will navigate and the Help topic they'll look up for step #4.

So, in situations like that, when I say "It's a Mac thing." I'm saving both of us a long and boring conversation. If the document gets complimented - and to be honest, most of the documents are just presented and accepted, I'm only talking about the exceptions here - and if a Windows user then thanks me for all hard work, and long hours, I've put into it then if I know and like them I will tease them with a Mac just works type comment. And if I don't know them that well, I just nod and say Thank You.

And for the record, if asked for my advice, I don't automatically suggest "Get a Mac" - and I never advise someone without being asked first. I find out what their budget is, what they do, what they would like to do, and what their tech guru uses (personally, I believe that the best system for most casual users is the system the person they're going to go to for help uses. But that's just me.)

 

[MagnusVonMagnum]

Last time I checked the Numbered Points broke it down perfectly sufficiently - treat each one as a paragraph and your good to go. Just because I haven't added hundreds of line breaks to make it nice and simple for grade-schoolers to read, doesn't mean its unprofessional.

The hell it doesn't. Readability is Job #1 in any writing class out there. With normal print, double-spacing and paragraph breaks are required to achieve this. Online, this formatting doesn't work so line breaks are used to delineate paragraphs. Unless your completely blind you could see how difficult your posts are to read as one continuous single-spaced blob of text. It's difficult for anyone to look at, not just grade-school kids.

I recommend you go and lookup how you write numbered lists, as last time I checked it was exactly as I have done it. Also, don't try to insult me by labelling me as unprofessional to cover up for your inability to realise my list matches most style guides perfectly, as far as the forum engine allows, it

If you don't take formatting engines into account, you cannot effectively communicate online. You can call your posts whatever you want, but if they're hard to follow due to single spacing and no line breaks for paragraphs, most people won't bother reading them.

 

[chrismacguy]

The hell it doesn't. Readability is Job #1 in any writing class out there. With normal print, double-spacing and paragraph breaks are required to achieve this. Online, this formatting doesn't work so line breaks are used to delineate paragraphs. Unless your completely blind you could see how difficult your posts are to read as one continuous single-spaced blob of text. It's difficult for anyone to look at, not just grade-school kids.



If you don't take formatting engines into account, you cannot effectively communicate online. You can call your posts whatever you want, but if they're hard to follow due to single spacing and no line breaks for paragraphs, most people won't bother reading them.

1) Paragraph breaks are NOT required in a numbered list. Especially Online. Otherwise why doesn't the standard Numbered List HTML Tag enforce them?
2) They aren't difficult to read unless you have a severe inability to understand basic prose, if your off-put by my writing I hate to think what you'd make of a number of widely respected texts.
3) Once again I WAS NOT WRITING PARAGRAPHED TEXT. It was a numbered list. Get that into your brain, because it seriously is not that hard. They were not written as paragraphed prose, they were written as a set of numbered points to make, in a neat order. Just because Im not writing Paragraphs does not make it bad style. You obviously have never ever studied English beyond the basics, otherwise you would understand that a Paragraph and a Numbered List are fundamentally different grammatical structures.
4) I have been structuring the majority of my posts in exactly the same style, on this forum, for the past 2.5 years, and everyone else on here seems to be able to understand a numbered list, its just you who can't understand that a post doesn't have to be in paragraphs.

 

[MagnusVonMagnum]

1) Paragraph breaks are NOT required in a numbered list. Especially Online. Otherwise why doesn't the standard Numbered List HTML Tag enforce them?

Because it only looks like crap if it encompasses multiple lines over a long length like anything else that is single spaced. Readability isn't just about strict rules (online formatting throws many conventional rules out the window). If you think about it, paragraph indentation is used in conventional print and yet single spacing is still discouraged because it's still a pain to read. Online you have neither double-spacing or paragraph breaks and thus line-breaks are used. Numbered points start to look bad if they're too long because they're single spaced and that's true of most single-spacing. I wouldn't even know if you had paragraphs or numbered points since I won't bother to read past the first few lines if I see a page-filling blob of single-spaced text ahead. I've got better ways to spend my time.

In any case, you've already indicated you don't care about grammar online and now obviously formatting either, though so just disregard my complaints. Don't be surprised at the lack of replies you get with such posts, however.

 

[RANDY P]

I must admit there is some truth to Windows being more powerful than OS X. Hear me out. I use Windows at work and hate it with a passion, but the business software my company purchased for me to use only runs on Windows. This is one reason Windows remains more popular. Enterprise software is more readily available for Windows.

I look forward to getting home and using my Mac and putting up with a lot less hourglasses and assorted "are you sure" BS but if I want to do real work for my job, I have to power up that sorry excuse for a laptop they gave me, hold my nose and use Windows. .

+1000. My experience exactly. Windows is so damn intrusive and frankly it treats you like you are retarded.

As for your Windoze supporters, go ahead and spend $$$ on the company that historically makes garbage and on top of that, you don't get the cust service that comes with buying an Apple product. Maybe by next release you'll remember why Windoze has such a bad rap.

Windows is for the bargain basement troglodyte who is solely driven by cost.

rjp

PS- Zaap- you need a life.

 

[steve knight]

I see far more beachballs then hourglasses. Remember windows runs on a huge variety of hardware. mac runs on a handful. There are still bugs and quirks what would happen if apple wrote software for as many computers as microsoft does? it would suck bigger rocks then windows.
99% of the time when I close a app in win7 it closes. on my mac sometiems I have to try several times to get something to close.

 

[fitalic]

yes main thing is more expensive. So people just dont get whe they should pay more for macs?

 

[jlc1978]

Closed off as far as hardware choices yes, as far as software, no its more open that Windows is. Mac OS is built upon Darwin Unix. I also disagree with the "not as enterprise friendly". They work fine for us.

The key, of course, is they work fine for you. Unfortunately, since most enterprises really on the big four - Word, Outlook, PowerPoint and Excel, enterprise integration is not as seamless as it is with a Windows based platform. Office 2011 is a fine product, but still has a few quirks that companies don't want to deal with; for example:
1. The recent Outlook update causes problems, for some users, with connectivity with Exchange servers by randomly giving unable to connect errors and requiring the user to reenter the password.
2. While Mac - Win document exchange is generally trouble free, the occasional document comes out looking odd on the other platform. If you send documents externally that can be a problem.
3. Most training is tailored to the Win version, so while much of the concepts and layout are the same, Mac users still would have to learn the Mac way even after completing training.

Price and myths are the two reasons its not as popular.

First, price:
People have this idea that "you're paying more for less" with a Mac, yet they fail to take into account the quality of hardware and OS you get. You simply can't find the same quality of machines in the Windows world. It would be like comparing a Lexus to a Neon. Sure both can get you to the same place but one is a much more pleasant experience.

If you want high quality hardware in the Windows world you will pay almost the same as if you were buying a Mac.

Cost is a very big factor. For most companies, if buying a Neon gets th job done why buy a Lexus? When you are buying tens, if not hundreds, of computers, the price difference is significant. Additional performance that is not needed is a waste of money. Most companies do not need a computer with Apple's build quality; they need one that will reliably last 3 or so years. If something breaks, unless it affects usability, it's no big deal. The biggest issue I've had is with declining battery life - and a battery is an easily swapped component in a laptop.

Quite frankly, if build quality was that important you's see a lot less of the $600 Dells and HP laptops and a lot more of the $1600 ones. In the end, impact on the bottom line plays a large role in computer purchasing decisions. The ration of low to mid range Dell and HPs versus high end ones bears that out.

One could easily say Microsoft has a "Microsoft Tax" since they charge so much more for their software than Apple does ($400 for the full version of MS Windows, $400 for the full version of Office, etc).

Retail prices are somewhat irrelevant since Windows is bundled in the price of the box, just as is Mac OS; Office pricing is about the same on either platform.

I use a a Mac because it works for me; but experience the issues that arise with using it in a Win centric world. I am fortunate in that I get to chose any machine I want as my laptop; but I have to live with that choice. Personally, if Apple brings out an i% or i& MBA with pricing and storage similar to the MBP line I'll probably get an MBA to replace my year old MBP; because of the portability and performance; assuming I decide I can live with a 13" screen.

 

[macsmurf]

I think this is where Chrome will take away from Windows someday. Windows PCs are really not Enterprise at all. Worst then Macs. Windows is a great gaming OS.

Riiiight. Microsoft take an active role in catering to the enterprise. For example:

1) Has mature management tools such as Active Directory
2) Can run on actual server grade hardware
3) Very backwards compatible. Always provide a migration path at least a year in advance

I personally prefer Linux for servers but Windows is certainly enterprise ready. In general, OS X is too risky to consider as anything else than the occasional employee laptop.

 

[flycats]

*yawn* Just fine. And just fine 3 or 4 years from now. People really need to get out more and stop spouting outdated tech-cliches. Most modern hardware is pretty sturdily made. It's childsplay now (and has been for years) to get a decent laptop that will last for years of solid use without spending a fortune.

Apple makes great stuff- no doubt. But realize- NOT EVERYONE GIVES A FLYING RAT. Like someone else here spelled it out- for many (if not MOST) people, they really don't give a damn about the brand of computer they buy, or the OS on it, any more than the brand of toaster oven they have in their kitchen. It's something that interests many of us that hang out on computer sites, but the average person couldn't care less. They can easily buy a computer for $500 and it serves their uses just fine. It's 2011, not 1995.

I don't normally quote entire posts, but you're right on.

Without trying to beat a dead horse, the same people that won't consider a $1500 mbp are the same people that won't consider a $1500 dell. Both machines will offer the user a similar experience, but it's not worth it to them.

There's also the fact that some folks are familiar with a windows box and really don't want to learn something new.

 

[nefan65]

I don't normally quote entire posts, but you're right on.

Without trying to beat a dead horse, the same people that won't consider a $1500 mbp are the same people that won't consider a $1500 dell. Both machines will offer the user a similar experience, but it's not worth it to them.

There's also the fact that some folks are familiar with a windows box and really don't want to learn something new.

If that's what he was trying to say, he did a bad job of it. Problem was the flippant comments, and condescending replies. That's why a lot of replies prompted the nasty, and snark comments.

True; most people who don't consider a $1,500 Mac won't consider a $1,500 anything. Some of the flaw in these posts, and arguments, is that people are trying to state that the level of quality, need, value, etc. is the, regardless. Meaning, that a $500 notebook is just as good as a $1,500 Mac, and then proceed to compare specs and nothing else. It's not the same...doesn't mean you can't do Web, email, word processing, etc. with the cheaper box. But the overall quality is not the same, IMO. The last part being the most important...OPINION!!!!!

 

[chrismacguy]

Because it only looks like crap if it encompasses multiple lines over a long length like anything else that is single spaced. Readability isn't just about strict rules (online formatting throws many conventional rules out the window). If you think about it, paragraph indentation is used in conventional print and yet single spacing is still discouraged because it's still a pain to read. Online you have neither double-spacing or paragraph breaks and thus line-breaks are used. Numbered points start to look bad if they're too long because they're single spaced and that's true of most single-spacing. I wouldn't even know if you had paragraphs or numbered points since I won't bother to read past the first few lines if I see a page-filling blob of single-spaced text ahead. I've got better ways to spend my time.

In any case, you've already indicated you don't care about grammar online and now obviously formatting either, though so just disregard my complaints. Don't be surprised at the lack of replies you get with such posts, however.

I seem to get plenty of replies, as does the rest of the world who uses correctly formatted single-spaced Numbered Lists (Which just look after your posts, is quite a few members here). You are the only one who can't read, and is complaining over something that is not just irrelevant, but shows you have a lot of growing up to do before you'll be accepted by the rest of the world. I mean seriously, you are moaning because you don't like standard accepted forum formatting style.