Why is our graphics engine so old?

Discussion in 'Mac and PC Games' started by smali, Oct 6, 2010.

  1. smali macrumors regular

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2010
    #1
    I just learned from a game developer that mac os is still using a 2006 opengl 2.1 engine while windows is on Dx11 from 2009.

    3 years! :eek:

    This is what happens when you go from a computer company into toy maker i guess...:D
     
  2. Mackilroy macrumors 68040

    Mackilroy

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2006
    #2
    Apple has never focused on games, and they do cover most of the OpenGL spec. Microsoft, on the other hand, has focused heavily on gaming, thus DirectX.

    You're making mountains out of molehills here. ;)
     
  3. goMac macrumors 603

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2004
    #3
    Almost all of OpenGL 3 is implemented. We're not actually stuck at 2.1, but we don't yet have the full 3.0 spec.
     
  4. knightlie macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2008
    #4
    Age isn't relevant. You know how "old" the Unix kernel of MacOS is, or the Windows kernel?

    No-one complains because the Windows kernel is over a decade "old."
     
  5. Winni macrumors 68030

    Winni

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2008
    Location:
    Germany.
    #5
    Since you don't know what you're talking about, here's a little challenge for you: Google how old the OpenGL engine in Windows is. And while you're at it, also look up what OpenGL and DirectX actually are, and why, if at all, you can only compare OpenGL to Direct3D. Have fun.
     
  6. bmb012 macrumors 6502

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2006
    #6
    And the PS3 and 3DS both use a version of OpenGL 1.0.

    Toy maker? Are you referring to M$'s focus on the 360 or Apple's focus on devices :rolleyes:
     
  7. nightfly13 macrumors 6502a

    nightfly13

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    #7
    I have to agree with the sentiment behind this post. Imagine if gaming on the Mac was equal to gaming on Windows. That's the last arena (and Steam is helping) where PCs win hands down vs Macs. Close that gap and watch Mac sales grow.

    I've had bootcamp for years. I finally decided it wasn't worth the energy to maintain a healthy windows partition for occasional gaming. I'm sure Win 7 is better, but I, like many other happy Mac users, can't be bothered.
     
  8. Queso macrumors G4

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2006
    #8
    I think now that Apple appear to have engaged both the Valve developers and the graphics card company engineers the last remaining outstanding functions from OpenGL3 can't be far away. Most of the legwork has already been done.
     
  9. edddeduck macrumors 68020

    edddeduck

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2004
    #9
    Currently 10.6.4 (on a modern card) supports 95% of OGL 3.0 and depending on the card has support for certain parts of the 3.1 3.2 spec's.

    Remember a complete spec does not mean it actually exists on any platform it is just that everyone has agreed on what the extensions should do they still need to be implemented so working versions of OpenGL will always lag behind the specification documents.

    Finally a small point but OpenGL is not a graphics engine it is API. Quake or Unreal are graphics engines, DirectX and OpenGL are graphics APIs. This page has some useful info on what an API is if you are interested.

    Edwin
     
  10. chrono1081 macrumors 604

    chrono1081

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    Isla Nublar
    #10
    No offense OP but you don't know what a game engine is.

    OpenGL and Direct X are not game engines. Unity, Unreal, Havok, those are game engines built on APIs such as OpenGL and DirectX.

    I loled at this for real :D
     
  11. albestar macrumors newbie

    albestar

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    Oct 17, 2007
    Location:
    Eldorado
    #11
    OpenGL vs DirectX comparison is not fair imho, one has a generic approach, harder to implement it properly in a system, the other is a proprietary API, born on a specific platform. Even for PS3 game development a Sony API (LibGCM) is preferred for low level instructions. Well, by definition proprietary graphics APIs are always the most optimized solution!

    DirectX has lots of functionalities aimed at gaming, whereas OpenGL still maintains tons of calls worthless for this purpose. But thanks to mobile gaming the OpenGL ES subset is quickly regaining ground. To be honest, at least as of today, thanks mainly to iPhone gaming!
     
  12. smali thread starter macrumors regular

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2010
    #12
    Since you succeded in coming across as a typical patronising nerd, here's a little challenge for you: Google - how to not be an ass. Have fun :p
     
  13. Mackilroy macrumors 68040

    Mackilroy

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    Jun 29, 2006
    #13
    You were wrong though. ;) Have you got all the information you needed, then?
     
  14. smali thread starter macrumors regular

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2010
    #14
    Yeah I did some talking to a friendly guy at the apple store on the way back from work. He explained to me mac os is further behind than windows in the whole gaming scene in terms of drivers but he said since demand is picking up for gaming on the mac and with future updates (such as the recent one we just had) we could be seeing better support and drivers in the near future.

    I admit I was wrong as the Apple guy also pointed out but atleast he didnt have to try (and fail) to mock me in the process of trying to educate me.:rolleyes:
     
  15. mark28 macrumors 68000

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    Jan 29, 2010
    #15
    Fact is, Apple has alot of work to do.

    OpenGl performance in Linux is better than OS X, which is free.
     
  16. AustinZ macrumors member

    AustinZ

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2008
    #16
    No problem. If I press on the internet and download a few giggles of RAM into my processor, my games will run faster for sure.

    On a more serious note, Valve is doing all of personal computer based gaming a huge favor by committing to work closely with Apple on making their machines better for games. Remember that Microsoft develops the DirectX and Direct3D APIs that underpin almost every game running on a Windows machine today. If Microsoft decides one day to concentrate on their highly profitable Xbox division to the detriment of PC gaming, we'd be up the creek without a paddle (and so would Valve).

    Having at least one serious alternative would at least give Microsoft pause and dissuade them from doing something along those lines. Competition is good for consumers and all that jazz.

    But I do have to agree that there are serious issues with Mac gaming right now. I have SC2 and Civilization 4; running them in OSX they're almost unplayable while they're just fine in Boot Camp. (Yes, I know Civ 4 was a port by a third party.) Even closing the performance gap to 5-10% would be a huge improvement.
     
  17. Hastings101 macrumors 68000

    Hastings101

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    #17
    Why is OpenGL performance better in Linux than OS X??
     
  18. mark28 macrumors 68000

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    #18
  19. Queso macrumors G4

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    Mar 4, 2006
    #19
    I'd like to see that test performed again, as the OSX graphics update patch co-developed by Valve and Apple has dramatically improved perceived performance. Let's see how it matches up with actual figures.
     
  20. archurban macrumors 6502a

    archurban

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    Aug 4, 2004
    Location:
    San Francisco, CA
    #20
    I am sorry. but no matter what you talk, openGL is not for gaming anyway. mac os x doesn't have particular acceleration software like directX. no matter how mac has high end spec, I won't play game on it. it's just sucks. actually, I play game a lot. I am not stupid to spend freaking money to buy mac in order to play games. PC is better. you think that bootcamp would be solution, huh? NO. there is performance different in between pure windows and bootcamp. those of you still try to play game, buy PC. that's the answer. it doesn't matter whether Steam tries to make mac version for now. it's still long way to go or they will suddenly drop development anytime soon. because mac game doesn't make any profit. it is more likely sacrifice for you mac users (well, I am mac user, too. but I don't play games on mac as I said).
     
  21. Hastings101 macrumors 68000

    Hastings101

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    #21
    I play games on my Mac just fine, in fact every game I used to play on Windows is available for Mac.
     
  22. chrono1081 macrumors 604

    chrono1081

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    Jan 26, 2008
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    Isla Nublar
    #22
    You obviously have NO idea what you are talking about. Not even close. I'm amazed at what you just wrote.

    As for "OpenGL is not for gaming" Um..wrong. OpenGL is a graphics API, graphics API's are often used to make games.
    Bootcamp not a solution? Wrong again. You are natively running windows. There is NO performance difference.
    Mac games don't make a profit? Wrong again! Mac gamers don't get a large selection of titles, and when they DO get titles they rush out and buy them. Steam has already shown that it has made plenty of money off of tapping the Mac market and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

    If you want to get real technical with your mac bashing I can easily say the PC market sucks for games and that its going to go away at anytime because in 2009 the ratio of PC to Console titles was a staggering 20 - 1. For every 20 console games sold only 1 PC game was sold. So by your logic PC gaming will be dead too right?
     
  23. lannister80 macrumors 6502

    lannister80

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    Apr 7, 2009
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    Chicagoland
    #23
    Um, what?
     
  24. Beric macrumors 68020

    Beric

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    Jan 22, 2008
    Location:
    Bay Area
    #24
    You must not play many games. Or care about the cost of them.
     
  25. lannister80 macrumors 6502

    lannister80

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    Apr 7, 2009
    Location:
    Chicagoland
    #25
    *cough* Steam *cough*. Buy once, play anywhere on any platform.
     

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