Why no 24 fps?

[Blue Hawk]

This is driving me crazy. Really. I hope you can help me.

My Apple TV 4K 1st Gen shows me the frame rates like 24 fps, 23,976 fps, 50 fps 59,94 fps and 60 fps.

When I chose 24 or 23,976 fps I get a black screen on my TV (from 2019) and later the message from the ATV that my TV doesn’t support it. When I use the Amazon TV App from the TV itself it does show 23,976 fps.

My questions now:

- What could be the reason that the Apple TV can’t switch to it? Automatic switch is enabled and does only work with 50 fps.

- Are tv shows and movies in 24 fps or 23,976 fps?

- If I really can’t use 24 and 23,976 fps, which frame rate I have to chose for them? 60 or 59,94 fps?

 

[Audit13]

I have my 1st Generation 4k running the latest OS is set at 4k 59.94 SDR with match rate and match frame enabled. When I play 23.976 files from my NAS, the ATV auto switches to 23.976 with no issue with my LG c7. I don't think I have any 24.000 files to test.

 

[-Gonzo-]

This is driving me crazy. Really. I hope you can help me.

My Apple TV 4K 1st Gen shows me the frame rates like 24 fps, 23,976 fps, 50 fps 59,94 fps and 60 fps.

When I chose 24 or 23,976 fps I get a black screen on my TV (from 2019) and later the message from the ATV that my TV doesn’t support it. When I use the Amazon TV App from the TV itself it does show 23,976 fps.

My questions now:

- What could be the reason that the Apple TV can’t switch to it? Automatic switch is enabled and does only work with 50 fps.

- Are tv shows and movies in 24 fps or 23,976 fps?

- If I really can’t use 24 and 23,976 fps, which frame rate I have to chose for them? 60 or 59,94 fps?

Give this a try and see if there are any unverified formats available that need checking.

To verify a format, go to Settings > Video and Audio > Match Content. Then select a format under Unverified Formats to run a short display test and verify it is being displayed correctly on your television.

 

[Blue Hawk]

Give this a try and see if there are any unverified formats available that need checking.

To verify a format, go to Settings > Video and Audio > Match Content. Then select a format under Unverified Formats to run a short display test and verify it is being displayed correctly on your television.

I’ve tried that. When I chose something like 4K 24Hz SDR I only get a „No signal“ message on my TV. Nothing under 50Hz works. It’s odd that it shows unverified formats which are also selectable at the verified list. But still no signal on my TV.

 

[-Gonzo-]

I’ve tried that. When I chose something like 4K 24Hz SDR I only get a „No signal“ message on my TV. Nothing under 50Hz works. It’s odd that it shows unverified formats which are also selectable at the verified list. But still no signal on my TV.

What TV are you using?

 

[Blue Hawk]

A Grundig with Fire TV Software:

https://www.mediamarkt.de/de/product/_grundig-32gfb6062-2588395.html

It is similar to this one:

32 GFB 6060 – Fire TV Edition Vision 6 Fire TV

Die Grundig Vision 6 Fire TV Edition steht mit ihrer Full-HD-Auflösung von 1.920 x 1.080 Pixeln für Fernseherlebnisse, die in der Erinnerung lange nachhallen. Für warme Ohren sorgt die DTS TruSurround HD-Technologie, für Entertainment-Highlights die integrierte Amazon Fire TV Experience. Dank...

www.grundig.com

I have reported this to Apple, Grundig and Amazon but they didn’t know how to help me. Lol

It is just a TV with 1080p, but the Apple TV shows 4K for some reason.

 

[w5jck]

Looks like the TV is designed for the European market at 50 fps. In USA, out TVs tend to use 30 fps and 60 fps. Regardless, if the TV is so designed, it should work with many of the other frame rates. Movies tend to be in 24 fps (or more precisely, 23.976 fps). If the TV is not capable of using a specific frame rate though, there isn't anything you can do. I would check the manual that came with the Grundig TV and see what the specs state. A lot of Fire TV editions of TVs have rather low specs, hence the lower prices.

 

[Blue Hawk]

Looks like the TV is designed for the European market at 50 fps. In USA, out TVs tend to use 30 fps and 60 fps. Regardless, if the TV is so designed, it should work with many of the other frame rates. Movies tend to be in 24 fps (or more precisely, 23.976 fps). If the TV is not capable of using a specific frame rate though, there isn't anything you can do. I would check the manual that came with the Grundig TV and see what the specs state. A lot of Fire TV editions of TVs have rather low specs, hence the lower prices.

It’s not the best TV (I would go for LG in the future). 2 years ago the switch to 24 fps worked well but not anymore.

 

[-Gonzo-]

Try a reset of both the TV and ATV.
With the ATV set to 1080p @60Hz and enable Match Frame Rate, if you see an option for Match Dynamic Range then keep that off.
If you find that when playing back a movie it still doesn’t show an image on screen then disable try disabling Match Frame Rate and see how that works.
If you notice any issues then try setting to 1080p @50Hz with Match Frame Rate set to off.

 

[dz5b609]

Looks like the TV is designed for the European market at 50 fps. In USA, out TVs tend to use 30 fps and 60 fps. Regardless, if the TV is so designed, it should work with many of the other frame rates. Movies tend to be in 24 fps (or more precisely, 23.976 fps). If the TV is not capable of using a specific frame rate though, there isn't anything you can do. I would check the manual that came with the Grundig TV and see what the specs state. A lot of Fire TV editions of TVs have rather low specs, hence the lower prices.

24fps is something else than 23.976 fps. and content is also being made in true 24fps (Netflix for example produces a lot in actual 24 fps) besides 23.976 fps.

 

[Blue Hawk]

Try a reset of both the TV and ATV.
With the ATV set to 1080p @60Hz and enable Match Frame Rate, if you see an option for Match Dynamic Range then keep that off.
If you find that when playing back a movie it still doesn’t show an image on screen then disable try disabling Match Frame Rate and see how that works.
If you notice any issues then try setting to 1080p @50Hz with Match Frame Rate set to off.

I always have an image on screen because my ATV doesn’t switch to 24 or 23.976 fps. I can only choose that in the settings but when I do that I have no screen on TV.

 

[-Gonzo-]

I always have an image on screen because my ATV doesn’t switch to 24 or 23.976 fps. I can only choose that in the settings but when I do that I have no screen on TV.

There’s possibly something wrong the the HDMI handshake that tells the ATV what it’s capable of doing, that’s the reason I mentioned doing a reset of both the TV and ATV.

However I’d be more inclined to say that until you get a better TV I really wouldn’t worry about it, just set to 1080p @60Hz with Match Frame Rate enabled.
It’ll then change to 50Hz for applicable content and for 24/23.976 fps content it’ll remain at 60Hz and use 3:2 pulldown so playback is smooth.

 

[Blue Hawk]

There’s possibly something wrong the the HDMI handshake that tells the ATV what it’s capable of doing, that’s the reason I mentioned doing a reset of both the TV and ATV.

However I’d be more inclined to say that until you get a better TV I really wouldn’t worry about it, just set to 1080p @60Hz with Match Frame Rate enabled.
It’ll then change to 50Hz for applicable content and for 24/23.976 fps content it’ll remain at 60Hz and use 3:2 pulldown so playback is smooth.

After a reset of TV and ATV the ATV doesn’t show 4K resolution anymore. But this doesn’t matter because my TV is only a Full HD but showed 2160p for some reason too. 24Hz was only visible with 4K but not with 1080p.

So that means when I’m watching 24/23.976 content I should use 60Hz (or should it be 59.94 Hz?) instead and I have not think about anything else?

 

[cupcakes2000]

Have you double checked the region ? Ie, pal v ntsc? Maybe try a better quality HDMI cable? I’m not seeing the same issues using mine in Europe…

 

[HobeSoundDarryl]

OP, in what are choosing 24/23.9 or 59.94 Hz? What gets pushed to your TV should be driven by how the content is encoded. Thus, if you are playing a 23.976 fps movie and you are allowing the frame rate to "pass through," it should "arrive" at the TV as 23.976.

Your posts read like you are going into AppleTV (or maybe the TV) settings trying to choose the frame rate you want to use. If so, that should not be something you have to do unless your TV can handle only ONE frame rate and you need all content fed to it to flow at that frame rate.

My guess is that maybe you are manually choosing some frame rate and maybe AppleTV is trying to convert to that on the fly, maybe failing or more likely taking too long and thus blank screen. Instead, set Apple TV to "match frame rate" and let the content be delivered at whatever frame rate it actually is. When you are feeding it 23.976 source file(video), that's what should arrive at the TV. If 25 fps (there), that's what should arrive. If 50 or 60fps, that's what should be arriving.

Trying to manually override the source file fps is ill advised, as how it is intended to be seen is however it is encoded. I'm guessing the ability to override is simply associated with perhaps a TV that can't handle certain fps rates and thus you can choose one your TV can handle and then let AppleTV convert the movie to that rate.

If you are perhaps making these judgements based on hitting an "info" button on your TV to see the fps rate while perhaps paused or showing the AppleTV UI, that will probably be the default instead of the content being played (but now paused). Thus a 24fps movie paused and now showing the AppleTV UI may be switched back to a default AppleTV UI rate instead of the movie. Then you unpause the movie and it is probably streaming at 24fps (unless your override fps rate may be affecting what AppleTV is delivering).

If you've messed around with customizing lots of settings, perhaps you should reset them and then try again (not customizing those kinds of settings but letting them generally be defaults except "match frame rate").

Edit: I started playback of a 1080p 24fps movie I own, hit (TV) info and it showed as 4K 24fps. The 4K is because the TV is 4K, so AppleTV is upscaling a 1080p video to 4K but leaving it at 24fps. Then I went into my settings and changed them to 720p 60Hz to see what would happen. While I couldn't get a blank screen, the same movie resumed, (TV) info, showed 60fps. So, presumably, AppleTV was dynamically converting a definite 24fps movie to 60fps because I chose that instead of "match frame rate." So now, I'm much more confident about the above.

Basically, you shouldn't be choosing what Hz or frame rate you want from video settings. Instead choose the one that is the best match for your TV (1080p 50Hz?) and just leave it at that. However, you can also choose "match frame rate" and that should send your TV 24fps (or any other fps) IF the video file itself is encoded that way. When you choose (TV) "info" while the video file is playing, it is likely to show it is receiving 24fps instead of 50hz or 50fps.

The first thing to verify THIS is the solution is to be sure about your video file. Just because it's a movie that should be 24fps doesn't mean it is encoded that way. It's easy to run any 24fps movie through something like Handbrake and choose a different fps rate. Render that 24fps at- say- 90fps and you'll have a 90fps move file. So don't assume your test video file is 24fps- check it.

An easy way to check is to open it in Quicktime, "Window" (menu), Show Movie Inspector, then "open" the Video Details pane/tab so you can see the file's FPS. In the video I just tested, that shows at 23.98fps vs. showing as 24fps on (TV) Info (button press, so pressing TV info is rounding up) vs. when I select 720p 60hz as a manual choice in AppleTV video settings, it then shows as a 60fps movie. Thus, when I choose the Hz without "match frame rate" I'm dictating the frame rate delivered to the TV instead of letting the file deliver it as it is encoded.

I'm not sure why you are getting a blank screen, but if you are messing with this settings menu, maybe you've messed with something else that doesn't need manual selections per video and those are conspiring together to give you a blank screen. Else, quality of cable is possible too but that's an easy switch.

One MORE test you can easily do: copy the movie that you think is 24fps onto a USB stick and plug that stick into the TV, bypassing AppleTV and HDMI cable entirely. Play the movie and then hit "info" while it plays. If you see 24fps (or whatever it should be for you), you'll know the file itself is OK and it's (probably) settings you've manually changed or maybe the HDMI cable. If by chance you are have any other link in the chain (receiver? soundbar video pass through?), maybe its settings are causing this too (bypass anything else (go direct from AppleTV to TV) to figure this out and then mix in other links in the chain one by one and test again as you do). If you are using something in the middle, maybe its settings are hard coded at a specific fps and you need to switch it to dynamically adjusting to whatever is fed to it.

 

[Blue Hawk]

Have you double checked the region ? Ie, pal v ntsc? Maybe try a better quality HDMI cable? I’m not seeing the same issues using mine in Europe…

PAL and I have a Ultra High Speed cable.

OP, in what are choosing 24/23.9 or 59.94 Hz? What gets pushed to your TV should be driven by how the content is encoded. Thus, if you are playing a 23.976 fps movie and you are allowing the frame rate to "pass through," it should "arrive" at the TV as 23.976.

Your posts read like you are going into AppleTV (or maybe the TV) settings trying to choose the frame rate you want to use. If so, that should not be something you have to do unless your TV can handle only ONE frame rate and you need all content fed to it to flow at that frame rate.

My guess is that maybe you are manually choosing some frame rate and maybe AppleTV is trying to convert to that on the fly, maybe failing or more likely taking too long and thus blank screen. Instead, set Apple TV to "match frame rate" and let the content be delivered at whatever frame rate it actually is. When you are feeding it 23.976 source file(video), that's what should arrive at the TV. If 25 fps (there), that's what should arrive. If 50 or 60fps, that's what should be arriving.

Trying to manually override the source file fps is ill advised, as how it is intended to be seen is however it is encoded. I'm guessing the ability to override is simply associated with perhaps a TV that can't handle certain fps rates and thus you can choose one your TV can handle and then let AppleTV convert the movie to that rate.

If you are perhaps making these judgements based on hitting an "info" button on your TV to see the fps rate while perhaps paused or showing the AppleTV UI, that will probably be the default instead of the content being played (but now paused). Thus a 24fps movie paused and now showing the AppleTV UI may be switched back to a default AppleTV UI rate instead of the movie. Then you unpause the movie and it is probably streaming at 24fps (unless your override fps rate may be affecting what AppleTV is delivering).

If you've messed around with customizing lots of settings, perhaps you should reset them and then try again (not customizing those kinds of settings but letting them generally be defaults except "match frame rate").

What I‘ve meant is that the Apple TV says that my TV does support all frame rates with 50 Hz and above but nothing like 24 and 23.976. When I‘m watching movies or shows (from iTunes for example) it does immediately play them without switching the frame rate and the quality isn’t that good like on other TVs which switch to 24 fps when the camera is moving.

When I’m using German apps the TV is switching to 50 Hz (short black screen), but not at other movies and shows which are in 24 fps.

Sorry for my bad English.

 

[-Gonzo-]

After a reset of TV and ATV the ATV doesn’t show 4K resolution anymore. But this doesn’t matter because my TV is only a Full HD but showed 2160p for some reason too. 24Hz was only visible with 4K but not with 1080p.

So that means when I’m watching 24/23.976 content I should use 60Hz (or should it be 59.94 Hz?) instead and I have not think about anything else?

The ATV setting to 4K was obviously a glitch due to the tv only being 1080p.
The whole point of Match Frame Rate is that you don’t need to do anything, just set it to 1080p @60Hz with Match Frame Enabled and it’ll take of what it outputs by itself based on what the TV can handle.
You can set to 1080p @50Hz if you wish but you may find that 24/23.976 content produces a stutter if it doesn’t automatically change the output to 60Hz.

 

[HobeSoundDarryl]

PAL and I have a Ultra High Speed cable.


What I‘ve meant is that the Apple TV says that my TV does support all frame rates with 50 Hz and above but nothing like 24 and 23.976. When I‘m watching movies or shows (from iTunes for example) it does immediately play them without switching the frame rate and the quality isn’t that good like on other TVs which switch to 24 fps when the camera is moving.

When I’m using German apps the TV is switching to 50 Hz (short black screen), but not at other movies and shows which are in 24 fps.

Sorry for my bad English.

That's probably because other than movies, TVs default to (for you) 50hz and here 60hz. Non-movie content delivered via cable/satt/over the air is mostly (likely to be) 50hz (for you).

I have a very expensive, deluxe 4K TV that I know for sure is capable of playing 24fps movie files. When I go into the list of formats I can manually choose, I have only 60hz and 50hz options (4K, 1080p, 720p). However, if choose "other formats" there is a much longer list and if I scroll way down to the bottom, I am offered 25hz and 24hz).

BUT, none of those are important to choose for just about anyone. Instead, you choose the best resolution and Hz for your TV (which I think is 1080p 50hz for your TV). You should just leave it at that and never make changes to that menu while hooked to that TV (at least no reason I can think of).

To do what you are wanting, in the other menu option, choose "match frame rate" and that will dynamically send whatever frame rate the video file actually is: 23.XXX, 24, 29.XXX, 30, 48.XXX, 49.XXX, 50, etc. to your TV to then display if it can. Think of that option like a "bypass." Instead of asking AppleTV to convert whatever the file actually is to whatever you've selected in manually-chosen video settings, you are telling it to just send the fps as it is, letting the TV circuitry then do whatever it will to display it on the TV.

Perhaps your TV lacks the ability to display 23-24fps video and that may be why you don't see a manual selection for those options in your list. You describe it as a cheap TV- maybe it just doesn't have that option and thus converts anything below 25Hz to 25Hz or maybe even everything to 50Hz.

But, bottom line, a user shouldn't be manually choosing resolution and frame rate after the initial setup to accomplish what you want. Instead "match frame rate" does what it seems you seek... IF the TV can "receive" the variety of original frame rates that could be flowed to it. It's highly likely that pretty much ANY TV CAN receive the variety of frame rates but then the circuits in the TV may be converting some signals to be able to play at whatever the TV is able to display. You choosing to force a display format that your TV can't handle may be what is driving the blank screen.

 

[MauiPa]

Do your tv inputs really support it? It is possible that the internal apps support different, and different inputs have different specs. I have a Samsung monitor that supports 60 hz on 1 hdmi input and only 30 on others (pathetic Samsung)

But why would you want to use 24 in the first place (kinda sucks)? Playing higher is almost always better

I would make sure all video options on tv are turned off. That is a bit like the false issue of using Dolby atmos on ATV yet also having audio processing on tv or external audio turned on. Kinda doesn’t work. Have to use 1 but not multiple

 

[Blue Hawk]

Thanks for your answers.

My Blu-ray player does also say that my TV doesn’t support 24p. Maybe just the internal apps. But never mind.

That TV is weird. Now the ATV shows 4K again with 4:2:0 but of course 4:4:4 is not possible. 1080p is also possible with 4:2:2 and both with HDR. I’m not gonna change anything here anymore. Just have it at 1080p60SDR (59.94). The animations are smoother for me than with the 50Hz default setting. And I think real 1080p with 4:2:2 is better than fake 4K with 4:2:0.

I will enable „Match frame rate“. But if it’s enabled HDR doesn’t work automatically anymore. If I disable „Match frame rate“, Apple TV+ content can switch to HDR. ?

 

[-Gonzo-]

I will enable „Match frame rate“. But if it’s enabled HDR doesn’t work automatically anymore. If I disable „Match frame rate“, Apple TV+ content can switch to HDR. ?

But HDR wouldn’t work anyway as your TV doesn’t support it, if the ATV tries to output in HDR the picture will be all washed out and dull looking.
Just make sure Match Dynamic Range is set to off, your TV is SDR so that’s all you’re ever gonna get.

 

[joevt]

I would make sure the TV supports the modes by creating custom timings in macOS on an Intel Mac

23.976 = 24*1000/1001. While the CTA-861 spec has some explicit modes for 60*1000/1001 Hz (59.94 Hz) (and 120 and 240), I don't see any for 23.976 Hz. The spec says that any mode with a refresh rate that is a multiple of 6Hz can have a corresponding mode that is multiplied by 1000/1001 so this includes 24Hz. The way to calculate the timing for these modes is just to multiply the pixel clock by 1000/1001.

So get the EDID of the TV and decode it with edid-decode. If it supports 4K 24Hz then the EDID will include VIC 93. Use the --long-timings option to get all the timing numbers:

VIC  93:  3840x2160   24.000000 Hz  16:9     54.000 kHz    297.000000 MHz
               Hfront 1276 Hsync  88 Hback  296 Hpol P
               Vfront    8 Vsync  10 Vback   72 Vpol P

The corresponding 4K 23.976 Hz option should be identical except the pixel clock 297 MHz is multiplied by 1000/1001 which gives 296.703297 MHz.

 

[PianoPro]

While the CTA-861 spec has some explicit modes for 60*1000/1001 Hz (59.94 Hz) (and 120 and 240), I don't see any for 23.976 Hz.

VIC 60 720p23.976
VIC 32 1080p23.976
VIC 93 2160p23.976 (3840)

 

[joevt]

VIC 60 720p23.976
VIC 32 1080p23.976
VIC 93 2160p23.976 (3840)

Where did you get those from?

I explained that all the VICs with a refresh rate that is a multiple of 6Hz have another mode with a pixel clock that is 1000/1001 times the base pixel clock. So I believe those VICs you listed are actually like this:

VIC 60 720p23.976 (59.340659 MHz), 720p24 (59.4 MHz)
VIC 32 1080p23.976 (74.175824 MHz), 1080p24 (74.25 MHz)
VIC 93 2160p23.976 (296.703297 MHz), 2160p24 (297 MHz)

Whether a source provides one or both of them is up to the source.

 

[PianoPro]

Where did you get those from?

I explained that all the VICs with a refresh rate that is a multiple of 6Hz have another mode with a pixel clock that is 1000/1001 times the base pixel clock. So I believe those VICs you listed are actually like this:

VIC 60 720p23.976 (59.340659 MHz), 720p24 (59.4 MHz)
VIC 32 1080p23.976 (74.175824 MHz), 1080p24 (74.25 MHz)
VIC 93 2160p23.976 (296.703297 MHz), 2160p24 (297 MHz)

Whether a source provides one or both of them is up to the source.

Right. You said you didn't find the VIC's for 23.976, so I put them up (these are the 16:9 VIC's, and not the 64:27 VIC's). They are from 861 of course. Unlike 59.94 there are no unique VIC's for 23.976. They are shared with 24 Hz.