Why The Long Wait For iPad Pro?...Surface Pro 4 Beats It To It...

donster28

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Oct 5, 2006
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I am patiently awaiting for the iPad Pro, heck, it doesn't even have a price here in Canada, and I am a little disappointed that Microsoft will be churning out new Surfaces/Surface Books in a few days, just a couple of weeks after they were introduced.

I know that the iPad Pro is just around the corner, but this is making me want to get my hands on the offerings from the other side first, which I'll probably do to try them out.

Is anyone in the same dilemma (if you wanna to call it that)?
 

sracer

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Apr 9, 2010
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Prescott Valley, AZ
I am patiently awaiting for the iPad Pro, heck, it doesn't even have a price here in Canada, and I am a little disappointed that Microsoft will be churning out new Surfaces/Surface Books in a few days, just a couple of weeks after they were introduced.

I know that the iPad Pro is just around the corner, but this is making me want to get my hands on the offerings from the other side first, which I'll probably do to try them out.

Is anyone in the same dilemma (if you wanna to call it that)?
Now you know why Apple did it. The knew Microsoft would be announcing the next generation of Surface devices so Apple preempted them with the announcement in order to sway some toward waiting for the iPad Pro rather than jumping on the Surface Pro 4.
 

donster28

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Now you know why Apple did it. The knew Microsoft would be announcing the next generation of Surface devices so Apple preempted them with the announcement in order to sway some toward waiting for the iPad Pro rather than jumping on the Surface Pro 4.
In any case, Microsoft seems to have beat them to it this time and the only thing Apple could do was jump the gun and introduce a product that's not quite ready to ship yet.
 

engineerben

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Jul 2, 2010
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Correct. But the fact that you are waiting for the iPad Pro to be released rather than buying a Surface Pro 4... mission accomplished. ;)
It's possible that Apple intentionally planned their announcement to undercut the Surface offerings, but its equally possible that they just didn't want to hold a second big presentation only for the iPad Pro. Or perhaps a little of both. I'm sure it was part of the equation...

Still, I keep thinking that the Surface Pro is a tablet that really wants to be used as an ultraportable notebook, and the iPad Pro is a tablet with an optional keyboard that can handle some, but not all, notebook functions. Heck, even Microsoft positions the Surface Pro not against any iPad, but against the Macbook Air. Every review I've read of the Surface Pro 4 emphasizes its notebook features with the tablet features relegated to a few paragraphs, mostly about the new stylus.

The Surface Book is even more focused on the notebook use case. It's a notebook with a removable screen that doubles as a tablet - but is it even possible to charge the tablet piece without the keyboard base? It's a beautiful, pricey, mid-range performance notebook with that very cool removable screen piece. Some will find that value proposition compelling - how many remains to be seen.

The iPad Pro is an iPad, through and through. It is not a notebook computer and doesn't behave like one. The keyboard thingy doesn't change that. But the larger screen and availability of the pencil opens new use cases that the smaller iPad models don't cover. Some will find that value proposition compelling - how many remains to be seen.
 
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itbeme

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It's possible that Apple intentionally planned their announcement to undercut the Surface offerings, but its equally possible that they just didn't want to hold a second big presentation only for the iPad Pro. Or perhaps a little of both. I'm sure it was part of the equation...

Still, I keep thinking that the Surface Pro is a tablet that really wants to be used as an ultraportable notebook, and the iPad Pro is a tablet with an optional keyboard that can handle some, but not all, notebook functions. Heck, even Microsoft positions the Surface Pro not against any iPad, but against the Macbook Air. Every review I've read of the Surface Pro 4 emphasizes its notebook features with the tablet features relegated to a few paragraphs, mostly about the new stylus.

The Surface Book is even more focused on the notebook use case. It's a notebook with a removable screen that doubles as a tablet - but is it even possible to charge the tablet piece without the keyboard base? It's a beautiful, pricey, mid-range performance notebook with that very cool removable screen piece. Some will find that value proposition compelling - how many remains to be seen.

The iPad Pro is an iPad, through and through. It is not a notebook computer and doesn't behave like one. The keyboard thingy doesn't change that. But the larger screen and availability of the pencil opens new use cases that the smaller iPad models don't cover. Some will find that value proposition compelling - how many remains to be seen.
Agreed. iPP is a Tablet...full stop. As always, this will be all about the apps. As IOS and the apps leap forward, Watch this platform take off. I'm the first to admit that I cannot do 100% of what I do on a notebook....yet. At work I see it, some folks just cannot transition out of what their used to. The cling to what they know. And...these are smart people. They just cannot leave their comfort zone and won't for some time to come.
 

mtneer

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Sep 15, 2012
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Does it really matter if Microsoft beat Apple to have the SP4 available? How many people would be swayed by that and buy the SP4 instead. Most people who would buy an iPad Pro would buy that regardless of what Microsoft was doing and well, vice versa too.
 

donster28

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Oct 5, 2006
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It's possible that Apple intentionally planned their announcement to undercut the Surface offerings, but its equally possible that they just didn't want to hold a second big presentation only for the iPad Pro. Or perhaps a little of both. I'm sure it was part of the equation...

Still, I keep thinking that the Surface Pro is a tablet that really wants to be used as an ultraportable notebook, and the iPad Pro is a tablet with an optional keyboard that can handle some, but not all, notebook functions. Heck, even Microsoft positions the Surface Pro not against any iPad, but against the Macbook Air. Every review I've read of the Surface Pro 4 emphasizes its notebook features with the tablet features relegated to a few paragraphs, mostly about the new stylus.

The Surface Book is even more focused on the notebook use case. It's a notebook with a removable screen that doubles as a tablet - but is it even possible to charge the tablet piece without the keyboard base? It's a beautiful, pricey, mid-range performance notebook with that very cool removable screen piece. Some will find that value proposition compelling - how many remains to be seen.

The iPad Pro is an iPad, through and through. It is not a notebook computer and doesn't behave like one. The keyboard thingy doesn't change that. But the larger screen and availability of the pencil opens new use cases that the smaller iPad models don't cover. Some will find that value proposition compelling - how many remains to be seen.
Great observations....but we can probably all agree after seeing and hearing reviews about their latest, Microsoft is now on the heels of Apple in terms of hardware. I still like OSX more than Windows 10 (especially now that El Capitan is out). My 15" RMBP has been a workhorse, so I will still buy Apple hardware. But now, for the first time, I am considering a Microsoft computer...Microsoft!!!....who would have known.

But back to topic, whatever Apple knew about the latest Microsoft products, I think they were not aware how ready Microsoft was to release their newest just a short few days after announcement.
 
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engineerben

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Jul 2, 2010
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Agreed. iPP is a Tablet...full stop. As always, this will be all about the apps. As IOS and the apps leap forward, Watch this platform take off. I'm the first to admit that I cannot do 100% of what I do on a notebook....yet. At work I see it, some folks just cannot transition out of what their used to. The cling to what they know. And...these are smart people. They just cannot leave their comfort zone and won't for some time to come.
Well put, itbeme.

It reminds me a bit of the first time I had to use a Mac - at the time, I was pretty much DOS all the way. For some reason, I needed to format a floppy on the Mac, and I kept trying to find a command window to type "format a:" into! Finally, someone showed me exactly how it was done - as I recall it was simple and intuitive for someone who hadn't spent the previous half-decade pounding commands into a DOS prompt.

Will the touch interface obviate the keyboard+pointing device interface in the same way the WIMP interface overtook the command line? I don't know, but I agree that it's in the creative hands of the app developers. Today, I still run back to my MBP for most tasks (I'm typing this on the MBP now) but with the right set of apps the IPP might just change that.

And Microsoft? MS is hedging their bets - all Surface products are Windows machines with an additional touch layer. This means their developers don't really have to think touch-first - all Windows apps can run directly on any Surface product (other than the RT). I haven't looked at the Windows marketplace, so I don't know how many touch-first apps are out there, but I know this: every iPad app has to be touch first. If - and it's a huge if - the touch interface begins to overtake the WIMP interface as the primary means of interaction, Apple will have the advantage.

Great observations....but we can probably all agree after seeing and hearing reviews about their latest, Microsoft is now on the heels of Apple in terms of hardware. I still like OSX more than Windows 10 (especially now that El Capitan is out). My 15" RMBP has been a workhorse, so I will still buy Apple hardware. But now, for the first time, I am considering a Microsoft computer...Microsoft!!!....who would have known.

But back to topic, whatever Apple knew about the latest Microsoft products, I think they were not aware how ready Microsoft was to release their newest just a short few days after announcement.
I agree on both counts - Microsoft has done some dynamite mechanical engineering here, and I (and I suspect everyone else) was taken by surprise by the Surface Book. It's not the computer for me, but it's sure impressive!
 
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JPIndustrie

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Great observations....but we can probably all agree after seeing and hearing reviews about their latest, Microsoft is now on the heels of Apple in terms of hardware.
I beg to differ - comparing the two is very much comparing Apples and oranges...

Two different approaches to be on each other heels.

iPad is developed as a mobile device from the ground up - it's designed to be comfortably used in bed or in a recliner in addition to a desktop or any 'classic' use case... It's designed to endear itself to you by being thin and light enough to hold up to your face, not unlike a diary or a journal.

I can't believe nobody is seeing it but M$ wants to push everyone back to the desk! Keyboards, mice, adjustable viewing angles - these are all things that are important to users who intend to replace their 'regular old' laptop with what amounts to basically a better looking case with a touch screen version of basically the same hardware, with no appreciable increase in speed!

Now they have another, even more expensive hybrid device with plastic hinges that clearly pushes the needle back to the desk and they try to get traction labeling it as a "professional's" touchscreen ... laughable. I'll upgrade my Air 2 to a Pro, get real work done, enjoy myself and boot up my custom built PC whenever I do need to use Windows (still only for A+ games, thats it.).
 
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DavesIknow

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Jul 5, 2012
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until Microsoft starts producing products with IOS its like saying Ford has a new Truck out, doesn't apply at all and is of no concern or thought to me...a tablet with win 10 and a tablet with IOS are in different galaxies...and i am sure people who like win 10 tablets would say the same thing
 
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engineerben

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Jul 2, 2010
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I beg to differ - comparing the two is very much comparing Apples and oranges...

Two different approaches to be on each other heels.

iPad is developed as a mobile device from the ground up - it's designed to be comfortably used in bed or in a recliner in addition to a desktop or any 'classic' use case... It's designed to endear itself to you by being thin and light enough to hold up to your face, not unlike a diary or a journal.

I can't believe nobody is seeing it but M$ wants to push everyone back to the desk! Keyboards, mice, adjustable viewing angles - these are all things that are important to users who intend to replace their 'regular old' laptop with what amounts to basically a better looking case with a touch screen version of basically the same hardware, with no appreciable increase in speed!

Now they have another, even more expensive hybrid device with plastic hinges that clearly pushes the needle back to the desk and they try to get traction labeling it as a "professional's" touchscreen ... laughable. I'll upgrade my Air 2 to a Pro, get real work done, enjoy myself and boot up my custom built PC whenever I do need to use Windows (still only for A+ games, thats it.).
I think donster28 was mainly praising Microsoft's industrial design on the Surface Book, and whether or not you like the hinge design, it represents an interesting design element. And the milled case design is something that Apple popularized in their "unibody" MacBooks, and it's nice to see Microsoft paying homage. The software controlled screen release is also interesting, although it might be a source of trouble down the line.

"Pushing everyone back to the desk" may just be a (in MS view) happy side effect. I think MS badly wanted to compete with the iPad, and the OS they have to do it with is...Windows! They modified Windows to incorporate a touch interface and built hardware to support a full-up Intel x86 CPU and created a tablet that runs all current Windows software - a pretty powerful draw if you're already invested in the Windows ecosystem. Time will tell if that was the best decision, but in my estimation it was the only move Microsoft had, and they have played it exceptionally well.
 

Krevnik

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Sep 8, 2003
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I can't believe nobody is seeing it but M$ wants to push everyone back to the desk! Keyboards, mice, adjustable viewing angles - these are all things that are important to users who intend to replace their 'regular old' laptop with what amounts to basically a better looking case with a touch screen version of basically the same hardware, with no appreciable increase in speed!
Is Microsoft pushing people back to the desk, or just listening to people saying "But iOS / WinRT doesn't run 'full apps' from Adobe" and creating a device that caters to that need in the marketplace? Microsoft's device is good if you want something that iteratively pushes towards a tablet. However, Apple's decided that isn't the approach, and it really should be getting the tablet right first, and then expand to engulf these needs iteratively without compromising the core identity of the tablet.

I don't think either approach is wrong, per se. One is iterative, and maintains backwards compatibility. The other is disruptive, and then iteratively fills gaps. The former favors folks like Adobe, the latter favors folks like 53.

Time will tell if that was the best decision, but in my estimation it was the only move Microsoft had, and they have played it exceptionally well.
It wasn't the only move they had. They tried WinRT as well, which was much more tablet focused (but still didn't fully ditch the desktop from that version, sadly). But in the end, those tablets fared worse than the x86 tablets running Win 8 as far as the analysts can tell.
 
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whodatrr

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Jan 12, 2004
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Since I already have a Surface Pro 3, I'm not interested in the iPad PRo. Heck, I don't even use my old iPads any more. Between my iPhone and the Surface Pro, my tablet needs are met. Though I still use and iMac as my main workstation.

But I've lost interest in tablets that are... just well, tablets. So no iPad Pro here.
 
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joeblow7777

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Sep 7, 2010
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I am patiently awaiting for the iPad Pro, heck, it doesn't even have a price here in Canada, and I am a little disappointed that Microsoft will be churning out new Surfaces/Surface Books in a few days, just a couple of weeks after they were introduced.

I know that the iPad Pro is just around the corner, but this is making me want to get my hands on the offerings from the other side first, which I'll probably do to try them out.

Is anyone in the same dilemma (if you wanna to call it that)?
Given that the Surface Pro line is in its 4th generation, if Apple was racing against Microsoft they lost long ago. It doesn't really matter which comes first. Those who want Windows will get the surface. Those who want iOS will get the iPad.
 
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sracer

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Apr 9, 2010
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I can't believe nobody is seeing it but M$ wants to push everyone back to the desk! Keyboards, mice, adjustable viewing angles - these are all things that are important to users who intend to replace their 'regular old' laptop with what amounts to basically a better looking case with a touch screen version of basically the same hardware, with no appreciable increase in speed!

Now they have another, even more expensive hybrid device with plastic hinges that clearly pushes the needle back to the desk and they try to get traction labeling it as a "professional's" touchscreen ... laughable. I'll upgrade my Air 2 to a Pro, get real work done, enjoy myself and boot up my custom built PC whenever I do need to use Windows (still only for A+ games, thats it.).
It wasn't the only move they had. They tried WinRT as well, which was much more tablet focused (but still didn't fully ditch the desktop from that version, sadly). But in the end, those tablets fared worse than the x86 tablets running Win 8 as far as the analysts can tell.
I was (and still am) a big fan of the WinRT-equipped Surface devices. The desktop was actually a GOOD thing about it. What hurt the Surface RT/2 was (1) the price and (2) the name. Microsoft named the two devices (non-Pro and Pro) and their operating systems too similarly which caused confusion. Call the Surface RT the "Zune tablet" running the Zune OS that happens to run apps in the app store, and the perception and reception would've been different.

Speaking strictly from a touch, tablet perspective, except for the active digitizer, there was no difference between the Surface RT and Pro... except that the Surface RT had longer battery life, was lighter, ran cooler, and didn't have a fan. Windows tablets will sink or swim as tablets primarily on the quality of the apps in the app store.

So even the Surface Pro 4 and Surface Book will have their tablet experience limited by the touch-optimized apps in the app store.

@JPIndustrie is spot on. That is EXACTLY what Microsoft is doing. This is one of the reasons why Microsoft NEVER advertises any of the Surface devices WITHOUT a TypeCover. Microsoft knows that Surface devices are primarily notebooks and only a tablet "in a pinch".
 

whodatrr

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Jan 12, 2004
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While the RT OS died, the concept is still kicking withe the Surface 3 line. Lighter, thinner, cheaper, fanless,
etc. It just happens to run Win 10, instead of RT. So, you can switch back to pro apps in a heartbeat.

Having said that, for "Metro" apps, the MS store has most of what I need. They have Netflix & Hulu, weather apps, stock apps, news apps, etc. That's 60% of what I use my iPad for. they also have a great browser, that switches from desktop to touch mode nicely, which is another 35% of what I use an iPad for. The 5-10% that's missing isn't critical to me, and I have a feeling the MS store will start picking up.

But I'd gladly trade that 5-10% for the ability to quickly enter into a full-on desktop, with actual productivity apps.

But if you liked the Surface RT, you should like the Surface 3. Check it out...

I was (and still am) a big fan of the WinRT-equipped Surface devices. The desktop was actually a GOOD thing about it. What hurt the Surface RT/2 was (1) the price and (2) the name. Microsoft named the two devices (non-Pro and Pro) and their operating systems too similarly which caused confusion. Call the Surface RT the "Zune tablet" running the Zune OS that happens to run apps in the app store, and the perception and reception would've been different.

Speaking strictly from a touch, tablet perspective, except for the active digitizer, there was no difference between the Surface RT and Pro... except that the Surface RT had longer battery life, was lighter, ran cooler, and didn't have a fan. Windows tablets will sink or swim as tablets primarily on the quality of the apps in the app store.

So even the Surface Pro 4 and Surface Book will have their tablet experience limited by the touch-optimized apps in the app store.

@JPIndustrie is spot on. That is EXACTLY what Microsoft is doing. This is one of the reasons why Microsoft NEVER advertises any of the Surface devices WITHOUT a TypeCover. Microsoft knows that Surface devices are primarily notebooks and only a tablet "in a pinch".
 

AttilaTheHun

macrumors 65816
Feb 18, 2010
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USA
I am patiently awaiting for the iPad Pro, heck, it doesn't even have a price here in Canada, and I am a little disappointed that Microsoft will be churning out new Surfaces/Surface Books in a few days, just a couple of weeks after they were introduced.

I know that the iPad Pro is just around the corner, but this is making me want to get my hands on the offerings from the other side first, which I'll probably do to try them out.

Is anyone in the same dilemma (if you wanna to call it that)?
Yes because the iPad pro, is stuck maybe in production so I have time to buy the surface 4 play with if I like it I will keep it or return and try the iPad pro, this way i can choose the right one for me
 

hleewell

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Oct 22, 2009
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In the meantime, Samsung just kills all future tablet competition with 18" Galaxy View.

 

Billy95Tech

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Apr 18, 2014
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a tablet with win 10 and a tablet with IOS are in different galaxies...and i am sure people who like win 10 tablets would say the same thing

I completely agree I would say the same thing!!!!

I have 2 mobile OS tablets a high end Android tablet Samsung Galaxy Tab Pro 8.4 and IPad Air 2 and I all so have a powerful 11.6 inch Windows 8 tablet Acer Iconia W700(I5 Core).

For me I prefer using my Android tablet and my IPad more than my Windows 8 tablet simply because of the amount of apps that are designed for touch on the Android and IOS compared to Windows(it is lacking apps designed for touch) and you have to use a mouse in some cases like editing videos on Windows and Android and IOS is way way way more simpler and easy, fun to use then Windows.

Overall Windows is NOT that touch friendly compared to IOS, Android to be honest!!

IOS and Android are the FUTURE on tablets, not Windows and plus they are getting advanced every year especially for tablets like IOS 9.

The main reason that I have my Windows tablet to edit and make my YouTube videos but everything else like web browsing, watching videos, playing games, lots more I do it on my Android tablet and my IPad Air 2.
 
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brentsg

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Oct 15, 2008
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Let's not forget that SP4 is just another SP. it's just incremental updates to get them closer to their vision. SB is more notebook than tablet, with 3 hour battery life in clipboard mode.

Plus those with SP4 preorders still haven't been charged yet, though initial SB customers have.