Why the next update should not relock the non-AT&T iPhone...

[carfac]

Everyone saying that you are legal to unlock your phone is wrong! It is NOT legal.

This argument is covered in much greater detail on other posts. Suffice to say that when there is a SPECIFIC EXCLUSION by the governing body (the LoC, I believe) that allows phone unlocking BY NAME, your sentence above will need more than your opinion to sway me.

When you buy an iPhone you are agreeing to use the ATT network, which means you are still under contract with ATT. When you sign that contract you agree to be with them for 2 years!

Funny, when I bought my iPhone (at an ATT store, btw), no contract was given to me to sign as a condition of sale. I am not now, nor have I ever been, a customer of ATT. If I was, yes, I would be covered by their contract. But ATT does not get 2 years of my life.

It is only legal to unlock your phone after you 2 year contract is up at this time for any phone.

Better back that up with some real laws. I can show you the contrary- read the REAL law:

Exemption to Prohibition on Circumvention of Copyright Protection Systems for Access Control Technologies, Final Rule

(Note: It is even TITLED Exemption to Prohibition on Circumvention...!)

You got the phone to unlock by using a program the exploited the coding in the iPhone....this is NOT legal.

I agree- until your final 4 word.

They cannot purposly relock the iPHone, but if their update makes it so the code exploit does not work, that is not their fault!

I agree. Completely.

We just have different reads on the exemption noted above.

 

[carfac]

Right, they don't have the right to stop you BUT THEY DO NOT HAVE TO SUPPORT IT EITHER! What I am saying is that they will probably break it but I guarantee you won't find a single line in the release notes that the firmware update is intended to do anything to unlocks.

But if Apple could go to court and explain that the most efficient way to patch the software or to update the firmware happened to break the unlock they are not obligated to rework their firmware to avoid that. Apple is not going to come after anyone, but if the unlock truly uses a security flaw they have every right to patch it, and if it happens to break your unlock it's not their problem.

Likewise, you have the right to re-unlock the phone as much as you'd like. They can't update the phone SOLELY to break the unlock, so as long as firmware updates leave alone whatever software patch/overrun/whatever the unlock uses then you are fine. Does that make more sense?

QF:

OK, I get what you are saying. It all comes down to my point above- does the security hole just ALLOW the process of Unlock to proceed, or is it the unlock? If the hole is just the key to get in the door to do other things to do the unlock, then we should be fine. You only need the hole to get in, the unlock exists separately.This is my understanding of how it works.

But if the hole IS the unlock, well, we will have to get another method.

I think we agree...

 

[Speedracer04]

This argument is covered in much greater detail on other posts. Suffice to say that when there is a SPECIFIC EXCLUSION by the governing body (the LoC, I believe) that allows phone unlocking BY NAME, your sentence above will need more than your opinion to sway me.

ya, lol and half those posts were made by me. Im just trying to make the point that by unlocking (exploiting code) you are breaking apples terms of agreement (correct me if Im wrong)

Funny, when I bought my iPhone (at an ATT store, btw), no contract was given to me to sign as a condition of sale. I am not now, nor have I ever been, a customer of ATT. If I was, yes, I would be covered by their contract. But ATT does not get 2 years of my life.

Ok, you have got me, about no contract at the point of sale. However the first time you use the iPhone without bypassing activation or unlocking, it takes you to the ATT activation screen where there you must sign the contract before using the iPhone.

Better back that up with some real laws. I can show you the contrary- read the REAL law:

Exemption to Prohibition on Circumvention of Copyright Protection Systems for Access Control Technologies, Final Rule


(Note: It is even TITLED Exemption to Prohibition on Circumvention...!)

You may have got me there, I did not read at and may not know the exact specifics.

I agree- until your final 4 word.

Im am almost 100% certain that somwhere in appls terms of agreement it states that by tampering with the firmware or code violates something of theirs

 

[Sobe]

The precedent would be any phones sold with legal (manufacturer approved) unlocks vs any others sold without. I am sure there are cases out there somewhere.

From wikipedia, the most important part of that is this:

Quote:
In the United States the DMCA has been claimed to criminalize unlocking. A exemption however took effect 27 November 2006 allowing unlocking, and will expire in three years[1]. The exemption only applies to the actual unlocking, not to providing an unlocking device or service (emphasis mine)

In other words, Apple's not coming after you for the unlocking but they are not legally obliged to SUPPORT an unlock. Which means if their OFFICIAL support of the iphone conflicts with the unlock they are not required to support it. That's my reading of it at least.

Have you actually read that exemption? That exemption has to do with providing the public with fair use of copyrighted works.

The purpose of the rulemaking
proceeding conducted by the Register is
to determine whether users of particular
classes of copyrighted works are, or in
the next three years are likely to be,
adversely affected by the prohibition in
their ability to make noninfringing uses
of copyrighted works.

Maybe some judge somewhere made a tortured connection to phones and unlocking them, but if this is all there is, that's a pretty weak branch to stand on.

 

[ImNoSuperMan]

And I think the crack/hack community makes up a small percentage of their sales. We forget because everyone here reads Macrumors and Hofo etc religiously but most people can't tell GSM from CDMA, let alone unlocking. It's more gravy than substance.

Ahmmm, I dont think that the "over a million" iPhone owners consists of too many people who cant tell GSM from CDMA. People know very well bout iPhone(thanks to Apple marketing) and they also happen to know it`ll work with AT+T only.They know it wont work with TMo.

Now I dont think everyone who wants an iPhone also wants AT+T. I`d estimate not more than 60-70% of all potential iPhone buyers would go with ATT. But that still leaves over 30%(minimum) interested buyers who already know all bout iPhone and dont buy just coz it wont work with TMobile. So IMO apple would have sold over 300000 more iPhones in the same period with the same price tag of 599/499. And I m talking bout US only. Double the total sales if you consider potential buyers for a smuggled iPhone all over the world.

It`s been only bout a week since iPhone was unlocked and I already see it available in grey markets in New Delhi,India. And though it costs over 650USD here it still is one of the cheaper smartphones. You`d find every other person carrying a mobile costing over 800$.

So my calculation says Apple can very easily sell over 100000 iPhones per month in India. BTW I wouldnt be surprised if I m proved completely wrong and Apple sells way way more than this estimate. And I m talkin bout India only. There happens to be 194 countries in the world. So the potential buyers for such unlocked iphone worldwide will be way way more than they are in US. So dont just say that unlocking the iPhone aint going to increase iPhone`s sale. It will atleast double it. Not 5% like ATT said.

 

[Sobe]

Ahmmm, I dont think that the "over a million" iPhone owners consists of too many people who cant tell GSM from CDMA. People know very well bout iPhone(thanks to Apple marketing) and they also happen to know it`ll work with AT+T only.They know it wont work with TMo.

Now I dont think everyone who wants an iPhone also wants AT+T. I`d estimate not more than 60-70% of all potential iPhone buyers would go with ATT. But that still leaves over 30%(minimum) interested buyers who already know all bout iPhone and dont buy just coz it wont work with TMobile. So IMO apple would have sold over 300000 more iPhones in the same period with the same price tag of 599/499. And I m talking bout US only. Double the total sales if you consider potential buyers for a smuggled iPhone all over the world.

It`s been only bout a week since iPhone was unlocked and I already see it available in grey markets in New Delhi,India. And though it costs over 650USD here it still is one of the cheaper smartphones. You`d find every other person carrying a mobile costing over 800$.

So my calculation says Apple can very easily sell over 100000 iPhones per month in India. BTW I wouldnt be surprised if I m proved completely wrong and Apple sells way way more than this estimate. And I m talkin bout India only. There happens to be 194 countries in the world. So the potential buyers for such unlocked iphone worldwide will be way way more than they are in US. So dont just say that unlocking the iPhone aint going to increase iPhone`s sale. It will atleast double it. Not 5% like ATT said.

Let's assume that your guesstimations are correct.

If it is that obvious, then why didn't Apple just sell unlocked phones to the world?

I have a hard time believing that they would dismiss these sales if it would amount to a doubling of sales.

 

[ZaniCWB]

So my calculation says Apple can very easily sell over 100000 iPhones per month in India. BTW I wouldnt be surprised if I m proved completely wrong and Apple sells way way more than this estimate. And I m talkin bout India only. There happens to be 194 countries in the world. So the potential buyers for such unlocked iphone worldwide will be way way more than they are in US. So dont just say that unlocking the iPhone aint going to increase iPhone`s sale. It will atleast double it. Not 5% like ATT said.

Thanks God someone got to do the right math. I lived in US for more than 2 years guys and I can tell you the problem is that north americans believe THEY ARE the whole world.

Hey, do you know that there are another 5 continents (yeah, shocking right? But it is true... google for the 411)? And more than 6 billion people live in the world? So it's not just about America... there's a whole world buying the iPhone. And yes, increased 5%, but that's in US. In a bigger picture (I mean the whole world) this number would be way bigger.

I'm glad someone got the point, I was close to giving up.

 

[toomer]

The way I see it ...

1) Under the current "exceptions" to the DMCA -- the DMCA can not be used as legal grounds (for the next 2+ years, at least) to go after someone who has unlocked their phone to use on another carrier. This is actually a very different statement to make than to say "I have the legal right to unlock..."

2) The DMCA clauses that have been suspended, make no inference one way or the other to the subject of "relocking". They're really quite simple and clear - you can't be sued (for now) for unlocking your phone. Period. Inferring that an "inverse" scenario ("Well, if it is legal for me to unlock, then it is ILLEGAL for a carrier/manufacturer to relock!") is faulty logic, at best.

3) Apple is under no obligation, whatsoever, to provide "updates" to a phone. And if they do choose to provide "updates" - it is up to you whether you accept them or not. If you accept them, in a click-through Terms of Service agreement somewhere, I'm sure Apple will bury all sorts of legalese to protect themselves. So, if you don't want to risk the possibility of your phone getting re-locked? Then you don't get updates.

The posture of "I want all the updates, and you had better not re-lock my phone in the process, Apple!" is understandable from a personal point of view, but ludicrous from a business standpoint and would never hold up in court. Apple is under no obligation to make sure that software updates that they provide, free of charge, don't impact some custom modification you've done to your phone.

 

[toomer]

Thanks God someone got to do the right math. I lived in US for more than 2 years guys and I can tell you the problem is that north americans believe THEY ARE the whole world.

Hey, do you know that there are another 5 continents (yeah, shocking right? But it is true... google for the 411)?

Instead of taking cheap pot-shots at all us dumb Americans, you'd do well to take a bit of your own advice and read up on how many continents there actually are on this planet...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continents

So that makes 6 other continents, besides North America. Not 5.

(and before you ask, yes there actually is GSM coverage in Antarctica)

 

[ldhilljr]

in order to sync your phone apple could make you update your version of itunes &/or your firmware. if you ever want to add anything you may have no choice but to update.

Not true. You can always keep running your present version of iTunes, which will always still sync with your current version of iPhone.

You (as the user) don't HAVE to update either one.

To "re-lock" the phone, Apple would need to offer enough of an incentive (in the form of new apps or services) that would make someone want to re-lock their phone by agreeing to an update. I can't quite think of what such an incentive would be, though.

 

[Sobe]

Thanks God someone got to do the right math. I lived in US for more than 2 years guys and I can tell you the problem is that north americans believe THEY ARE the whole world.

Hey, do you know that there are another 5 continents (yeah, shocking right? But it is true... google for the 411)? And more than 6 billion people live in the world? So it's not just about America... there's a whole world buying the iPhone. And yes, increased 5%, but that's in US. In a bigger picture (I mean the whole world) this number would be way bigger.

I'm glad someone got the point, I was close to giving up.

Probably because in many ways, we ARE the world:

 

[ldhilljr]

And as a follow up to some earlier posts:

1. Although the DMCA exemption probably prevents Apple or ATT from taking action against me for unlocking my iPhone, I would tend to agree that the DMCA exemption does not REQUIRE that Apple or ATT actually support unlocking the iPhone. Which simply means that if there is an update that would re-lock the iPhone, it's my choice whether to accept the update and re-locking or pass on the update and stay unlocked.

2. Terms of Service. I actually read through a bunch of the terms of service but saw nothing that required me to use the iPhone on ATT's network. And I certainly never clicked or accepted anything (during my faux-activation or otherwise) that said I agreed to use my iPhone on ATT. So again, the idea that I have or am doing something illegal (and let's face it, we're talking civil liability not criminal liability here) doesn't appear to hold water.

3. Practicality. Although alot of people reading these posts have either unlocked or are thinking about unlocking their iPhone, I agree that most people's eyes glaze over when they hear the words "cell phone lock." Heck, most people never realize that the cell phone they are using is locked. So, the idea that Apple or ATT are going to start a new land war in Asia to re-lock everyone's iPhone is probably not a realistic one.

 

[Sobe]

And as a follow up to some earlier posts:

1. Although the DMCA exemption probably prevents Apple or ATT from taking action against me for unlocking my iPhone, I would tend to agree that the DMCA exemption does not REQUIRE that Apple or ATT actually support unlocking the iPhone. Which simply means that if there is an update that would re-lock the iPhone, it's my choice whether to accept the update and re-locking or pass on the update and stay unlocked.

2. Terms of Service. I actually read through a bunch of the terms of service but saw nothing that required me to use the iPhone on ATT's network. And I certainly never clicked or accepted anything (during my faux-activation or otherwise) that said I agreed to use my iPhone on ATT. So again, the idea that I have or am doing something illegal (and let's face it, we're talking civil liability not criminal liability here) doesn't appear to hold water.

3. Practicality. Although alot of people reading these posts have either unlocked or are thinking about unlocking their iPhone, I agree that most people's eyes glaze over when they hear the words "cell phone lock." Heck, most people never realize that the cell phone they are using is locked. So, the idea that Apple or ATT are going to start a new land war in Asia to re-lock everyone's iPhone is probably not a realistic one.

I agree with you for the most part. I would speculate that the most likely scenario is that as they add functionality and fix things, it will "break" unlocking in the process without directly targeting it.

 

[ldhilljr]

I agree with you for the most part. I would speculate that the most likely scenario is that as they add functionality and fix things, it will "break" unlocking in the process without directly targeting it.

I have no doubt that if Apple releases an update that re-locks the iPhone, they will say not a blessed word about it, whether they intentionally are seeking that result or otherwise. But most people who have invested the time and energy to unlock their own iPhone probably (and I'm sure there will be plenty of examples to prove me wrong) are smart enough to know not to update their iTunes or iPhone until someone has confirmed that the iPhone will still remain unlocked, or until a new unlocking solution has been devised.

I'm still very interested to see how practical it will be for Apple to close the loopholes that have been discovered that allow for the iPhone to be jailbroken and for the baseband to be flashed so that the unlock "state" can be imposed on the phone. It's kind of like watching a cat and mouse, and wondering if the mouse has a chance of getting away.

 

[ZaniCWB]

Instead of taking cheap pot-shots at all us dumb Americans, you'd do well to take a bit of your own advice and read up on how many continents there actually are on this planet...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continents

So that makes 6 other continents, besides North America. Not 5.

(and before you ask, yes there actually is GSM coverage in Antarctica)

Well, at least you could have read the link you posted:

The 6-continent combined-America model is taught in Latin America, the Iberian Peninsula, Italy, Iran and some other parts of Europe; this model may be taught to include only the 5 inhabited continents (excluding Antarctica).

There are actually many ways of distinguishing the continents.

See, that is my point: I'm NOT criticizing americans and don't forget I'm one of them But you're so used to fast-food, fast this, fast that... if there was an option of "already chewed fast-food so it would be even faster" I bet you would try it.

Nothing personal at all, but I've used computer my whole life and it's so real that these kind of forums show that: how many times do you see the same question posted again and again and again... it's an infinite loop! (hey, isn't it Apple's address?). If you go other countries forums this is no common behavior. Anyway, this forum ROCKS since ever!

 

[matticus008]

But, by your SAME quote, I AM allowed to unlock my phone, not for profit- right? If I am legal that way, then APPLE would be breaking my DMCA rights by reversing my unlock

You don't have any "DMCA rights"--you're not the copyright holder. The DMCA merely bars AT&T or Apple from prohibiting the unlocking of cell phones via copyright law.

If unlocking the phone relies on a specific firmware version, then you are only protected as long as you use that firmware version. If you choose to accept future software updates, you assume the risk that any backdoor unlock will fail.

Everyone saying that you are legal to unlock your phone is wrong! It is NOT legal.

Yes, it absolutely is legal. What is not necessarily legal is the creation and distribution of these tools. That does not affect the end user, however.

When you buy an iPhone you are agreeing to use the ATT network, which means you are still under contract with ATT. When you sign that contract you agree to be with them for 2 years!

This has zero relationship to the unlocking. Your contract with AT&T is a separate matter, with separate remedies for breach and termination. If you discontinue your AT&T service, you pay the penalty and move on.

It is only legal to unlock your phone after your 2 year contract is up for any phone!

There is no such requirement unless it is stipulated in your agreement, and in that case it becomes a separate and more complicated issue.

 

[carfac]

You don't have any "DMCA rights"--you're not the copyright holder. The DMCA merely bars AT&T or Apple from prohibiting the unlocking of cell phones via copyright law.

Correct. My poor choice of words. I have NO rights in this regard, and stand corrected.

But what is your read on Apples ability to "re-lock" an unlocked phone? Do they have the right (or are they protected if) they relock an unlocked phone?

 

[matticus008]

But what is your read on Apples ability to "re-lock" an unlocked phone? Do they have the right (or are they protected if) they relock an unlocked phone?

Absolutely they can. They have no obligation to honor any hacks or work around unlocks that are based on a specific technique useful on a specific firmware. If they release a firmware update and the unlock method stops working, too bad. It's their phone software and they have the right to do as they please with it.

You're free to continue unlocking the phone as other methods become available, but part of the downside of relying on hackers to do anything is that there is no guarantee it will work in the future.

Simply decline to update the firmware if you don't want to go seven rounds with Apple. You might miss out on new features and improvements, but that's just the way it works.

Traditionally, unlocking a phone requires entering a valid code given by the carrier, matched to your IMEI. The handset will honor that code and continue to be unlocked through firmware updates. The current iPhone does not appear to have that ability, as it uses locking software beyond a simple SIM lock.

 

[MacCurry]

This is kinda off-topic, but most US-Americans have not travelled beyond the continental US because there is no need to - everything is available. God has blessed the US with good neighbors who are kind and helpful. Therefore, the world starts in Seattle and ends at Miami and no need to know about anyone else. Just imagine if the US had Pakistan, Iran, Syria or North Korea as neighbors. I bet US-Americans would be more informed.

Now back to the topic. China adds 5 million new mobile phone customers a month and India adds over 7 million each month! This trend will continue for the next 5-7 years. If unlocked iPhones are available, these people will get them. My guess is that at $800USD, about 10% of these subscribers would give the iPhone serious consideration. The high end smart phone sales would then be diveded between SE, Nokia and Apple. This would mean very conservatively 400,000 iPhones sold per month in India and China combined!

 

[Sobe]

This is kinda off-topic, but most US-Americans have not travelled beyond the continental US because there is no need to - everything is available. God has blessed the US with good neighbors who are kind and helpful. Therefore, the world starts in Seattle and ends at Miami and no need to know about anyone else. Just imagine if the US had Pakistan, Iran, Syria or North Korea as neighbors. I bet US-Americans would be more informed.

Now back to the topic. China adds 5 million new mobile phone customers a month and India adds over 7 million each month! This trend will continue for the next 5-7 years. If unlocked iPhones are available, these people will get them. My guess is that at $800USD, about 10% of these subscribers would give the iPhone serious consideration. The high end smart phone sales would then be diveded between SE, Nokia and Apple. This would mean very conservatively 400,000 iPhones sold per month in India and China combined!

Careful with those broad generalizations. Some of us are quite well-traveled, thank you very much. Regardless, the degree to which the US is a multicultural society surely cannot be news to you. I can drive down the road and meet Indians, Pakistanis, Iranians, Syrians, Koreans and about 100 other nationalities.

Apple can market to India and China without engaging in an argument about unlocking their product, unless it is specifically required to sell your product there.

 

[MacCurry]

Sobe,

You're in a major east coast suburban area with a very diverse population set. Just go a couple of hundred miles south or west and its a very different story.

Unlocked phones be it Apple or anyone else is the standard in many parts of Asia since the phone seller has nothing to do with the service provider. You buy a pre-paid service or pay as you go until you're tired of the carrier.

 

[Sobe]

Sobe,

You're in a major east coast suburban area with a very diverse population set. Just go a couple of hundred miles south or west and its a very different story.

Unlocked phones be it Apple or anyone else is the standard in many parts of Asia since the phone seller has nothing to do with the service provider. You buy a pre-paid service or pay as you go until you're tired of the carrier.

Good idea, I've never traveled south or west of here before...

 

[MacCurry]

Sobe,

My point here is that many of the fine folks in West Virgina and the corner near Tennesse aren't as well travelled or well-heeled as the folks in DC. Their world is within driving distance to the nearest NASCAR race.

 

[Sobe]

Sobe,

My point here is that many of the fine folks in West Virgina and the corner near Tennesse aren't as well travelled or well-heeled as the folks in DC. Their world is within driving distance to the nearest NASCAR race.

heh I assure you where I live is not particularly well-heeled.

And many people these days commute from West Virginia to DC or the DC suburbs.

You've got a stereotype and you're hell-bent on shoehorning it into the conversation.

Sure you can find people in the US who don't have a lot of exposure to other cultures if you want to. But let's talk reality -- most people are simply not that isolated and Virgina and WV are having massive amounts of immigration, particularly from mexico and central american countries.

 

[eddiebrock]

per jobs it sounds like the official policy towards unlocking/hacking is not in its favor, and in fact seems as though their stance is to proactively prevent it.

http://www.macworld.co.uk/ipod-itunes/news/index.cfm?newsid=19123

"It’s a cat and mouse game. We play it on iPods with DRM. We try to stay ahead. I’m not sure if we are the cat or the mouse. People will try to break in and it’s our job to stop them breaking in."