Why Window Phone will fail.

Discussion in 'Apple, Inc and Tech Industry' started by smoledman, Sep 16, 2012.

  1. smoledman macrumors 68000

    Oct 17, 2011
    Apple marketing is great. The average consumer knows about all the cool features on iOS. So they know about Siri, notification center, AirPlay, Mirroring, universal search. Then they go to the Windows Phone kiosk and ask where are those things and they hear back "sorry we don't have those, but we have these nifty live tiles" and the consumer shakes their head and buys the iPhone. Microsoft just has no clue what the consumer really needs.
  2. G51989 macrumors 68030


    Feb 25, 2012
    NYC NY/Pittsburgh PA
    Which is why 90% of the worlds computers run windows?


    Indeed it is, do you really think the iDevices would have gone anywhere without it? No they wouldnt have.

    And lets be honest, Windows Phone 8 looks really good.

    People once said the XBOX would go nowhere, it would be a failure, gain no marketshare and make no money,

    Those sony guys must feel jealous and sony takes loss after loss, and Microsoft makes more and more Profits off the XBOX line.
  3. smoledman thread starter macrumors 68000

    Oct 17, 2011
    #1 - Windows are on only 85% of the world's PCs now and declining every quarter. It only ever got to 90% because of historical legacy issue that has nothing to with the actual quality of the OS.

    #2 - WP8 looks like the fugliest OS I've ever seen.

    #3 - XBox only got to the #1 position by blowing $20 billion in R&D and replacing all those RROD failures. Microsoft will never ever be in the black with XBox division. Never ever. Oh and they have never been #1 in Japan and their lead in America is very slight over PS3.
  4. G51989 macrumors 68030


    Feb 25, 2012
    NYC NY/Pittsburgh PA

    I just checked my numbers, its still hovering around 90% according to most sources. Because it is better than OSX for most people imo. ( I use OSX at home, but I would never consider it for work, its limited, and not capable of heavy lifting )

    Windows 7 is better than Lion and Moutain lion by leaps and bounds.

    If you think Apple will ever have 90% of the desktop/laptop marketshare, keep dreaming. It won't happen.

    Thats your opinion, lots of people seem to be warming up to it. I hated it at first, but the most I use it, the more I like it.

    And all that money blown, Paid off. Microsoft profits off every console sold, and every game sold. And they profit off every year of XBOX live sold.

    All that money spend, paid off, they are making big profits.

    And who cares about Japan? I don't live there, and the 360 is a much better console than the garbage PS3
  5. smoledman thread starter macrumors 68000

    Oct 17, 2011
    #1 - define "heavy lifting" and what you can do on Windows that you can't on Mountain Lion.

    #2 - How is Windows 7 better the ML by "leaps and bounds"?

    #3 - I have no doubt it will take 10 years for Apple to get 90% marketshare on desktops, but that market will be very tiny by then.

    #4 - Yes let me know when Microsoft makes back that $20 billion they spent on XBox. They are still $10 billion in the red.

    #5 - Japan is the 2nd most important country for gaming after America. If you can't hack it in Japan, you're a failure.
  6. TSE macrumors 68030

    Jun 25, 2007
    St. Paul, Minnesota
    You guys are fighting over nonsense.

    Fact: I just bought a unlocked Nokia Lumia 710 with Windows Phone 7.5 and really, really enjoy it. Much more than Android. I hope Microsoft succeeds with Windows Phone because I enjoy it and will probably buy another one since I like T-Mobile. The iPhone is great. Windows Phone 7.5 is good. Android is okay.
  7. boss.king, Sep 16, 2012
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2012

    boss.king macrumors 68040


    Apr 8, 2009
    4. So if they 'blew' 20 billion and are only 10 billion in the red, would that not meant they've made half their loss back already? Not bad when you think about it.

    5. I would say they have made it. They may not be number 1 in Japan, but the are pretty much everywhere else. I'd count that a success.

    On another note, what has made you change your mind so strongly about WP8 as opposed to WP7, which you bought and loved? They look almost identical, so why the change of heart? Both here and on The Verge you seem to switch between love/hate extremes with both MSFT ad Apple every few weeks. Does this mean we can count on your support for WP8 soon?
  8. FTRDRMZ macrumors newbie


    Sep 16, 2012
    I think WP7/8 is kind of nice. It tries to emulate the simplicity of the iPhone, while properly supporting other Microsoft products like Office and Xbox. It might not be so great for someone who's entire household is Apple, but it is a phone I'd recommend to people that know nothing about smartphones (I'd never recommend an Android android, die to the complexity, inconsistency, and no guarantee of safety)

    I'm looking forward to BB10 myself though... But I'm still near the begining of my contract so i have time to wait and see how the new systems turn out.
  9. Rodimus Prime macrumors G4

    Rodimus Prime

    Oct 9, 2006
    1# Enterprise world. Sorry but OSX sucks in the business world. It has poor centralized IT support. It has poor 3rd party support. It has piss poor backwards compatibility (again key in the business world.) Limited software support. It software development tools are ok at best.

    2# well you are an apple fan boy so we will pass over this one. I like the UI of windows 7 by far better than OSX.

    3# Keep dreaming. Points back at the fanboy reasoning for you.

    4# MS flat out announced that best case for breaking even on the Xbox project was 10 years and that was BEST CASE. They were projecting a much longer time span than that one. That money sunk was a long term investment to get into the market. At the time you had 3 very ingrained players and to break it was going to cost billion. Now that they have put out the case they have gotten into the living room. A place Apple is still struggling to do. The Apple TV sucks compared to the alertnatives. The only thing it can do is play iTunes movies that everyone else can not do. It has limited file support compared to the 360 that supports the most common formats and many of the open source formats.

    5# You really have no understanding of Japan. If you are not a Japanese company you generally struggle in Japan plan and simple. Considering they are #2 is saying something as that would mean they are beating Sony as Nintendo still holds top spot.

    Sum it up we got it you hate MS and just are going to sread FUD.

    Long term iOS in the smart phone world is going to drop to number 2 in terms of the OS. Number 1 and 2 will be Android and Windows Phone. iOS is losing ground to Android pretty much quarter on top of quarter and it will keep going that way.
    You can expect their tablet market to start dropping quickly as soon as windows 8 comes out.
  10. Bernard SG macrumors 65816

    Bernard SG

    Jul 3, 2010
    It's weird, if that's what you think, that you chose the Lumia over the iPhone?
  11. roadbloc macrumors G3


    Aug 24, 2009
    And this is why humanity disappointed me. Somebody who can't even spell the word 'Windows' correctly thinks they know the root of Microsoft's lack of Smartphone marketshare.

    Write a blog if it will make you feel better. Making topics like this is almost asking for another thread of iOS vs everyone-else arguments.
  12. TSE macrumors 68030

    Jun 25, 2007
    St. Paul, Minnesota
    Are you asking what made me choose Windows Phone over the iPhone?

    If so, what made me choose Windows Phone over iOS is the fact that I broke me previous Samsung Galaxy S 4G and needed a cheap off-contract T-Mobile phone... Lumia 710 was $100 shipped on eBay, and I wanted to try Windows Phone. And I like it. A lot.
  13. h4cky0u macrumors member

    Oct 12, 2007
    I've been an iPhone owner for years, got my first Android tablet last month, and will be receiving a 14" touchscreen laptop running Windows 8.

    Windows 8 phones will not flop, I guarantee that for one reason. Microsoft is going the integration route. By integration route, I mean smartphones, tablets, and laptops will all be running essentially the same software: Windows 8. Apple already does this which is a big reason why once somebody buys an Apple product, they like to buy more Apple producta to feel all of their devices are integrated and compatible.
    Microsoft will be doing this with the same devices, and it will make people feel completely integrated and at ease with the products.
  14. Paulywauly macrumors 6502a


    Sep 26, 2009
    Durham, UK
    I agree here completely and i'll admit im an Apple fan boy to the bone.

    It could be argued that Microsoft has taken a leaf out of Apples book by completely integrating phones, surface tablets, desktop os and xbox but that isn't a bad thing at all. They are innovating on their own, they're coming up with innovative and customer friendly interfaces, cross service products, better than ever enterprise support. They are moving away from simply relying on MS Office licenses and OEM business for money and making sure some of their newer products are only available on dedicated hardware (such as Windows 8 Surface and Windows Phone)

    I'm not saying Windows Phone will be THE market leader, but to dismiss Microsoft and its products right now the way the OP has is to be quite frank, delusional fanboy nonsense. Especially in regards to the sensationalist claim that 90% of desktops will be Macs in 10 years. Whilst i love my Apple kit, the real world just doesnt run on Macs and Apples complete lack of enterprise support is evidence of this. I mean heck, they don't even make real servers anymore. Servers which are needed to run businesses which use computers. Ever tried running a Mac desktop on a large corporate Windows network? It gets ugly.
  15. munkery, Sep 27, 2012
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2012

    munkery macrumors 68020


    Dec 18, 2006
    How so? Definitely not in relation to security.

    1) Until Vista, the admin account in Windows did not implement DAC in a way to prevent malware by default. Also, Windows has a far greater number of privilege escalation vulnerabilities that allow bypassing DAC restrictions even if DAC is enabled in Windows.

    Much of the ability to turn these vulnerabilities into exploits is due to the insecurity of the Windows registry. Also, more easily being able to link remote exploits to local privilege escalation exploits in Windows is due to the Windows registry.

    Mac OS X does not use an exposed monolithic structure, such as the Windows registry, to store system settings. Also, exposed configuration files in OS X do not exert as much influence over associated processes as the registry does in Windows.

    Mac OS X Snow Leopard has contained only 4 elevation of privilege vulnerabilities since it was released; obviously, none of these were used in malware. Lion has contained 2 so far but one of these vulnerabilities doesn't affect all account types because of being due to a permissions error rather than code vulnerability.

    The following link shows the number of privilege escalation vulnerabilities in Windows 7 related to just win32k:


    More information about privilege escalation in Windows 7:

    http://www.exploit-db.com/bypassing-uac-with-user-privilege-under-windows-vista7-mirror/ -> guide to develop exploits to bypass UAC by manipulating registry entries for kernel mode driver vulnerabilities.

    https://media.blackhat.com/bh-dc-11/Mandt/BlackHat_DC_2011_Mandt_kernelpool-wp.pdf -> more complete documentation about Windows kernel exploitation.

    http://mista.nu/research/mandt-win32k-paper.pdf -> more complete documentation about alternative methods to exploit the Windows kernel.

    http://threatpost.com/en_us/blogs/tdl4-rootkit-now-using-stuxnet-bug-120710 -> article about the TDL-4 botnet which uses a UAC bypass exploit when infecting Windows 7.

    2) Windows has the potential to have full ASLR but most software does not fully implement the feature. Most software in Windows has some DLLs (dynamic link libraries = Windows equivalent to dyld) which are not randomized.

    http://secunia.com/gfx/pdf/DEP_ASLR_2010_paper.pdf -> article overviewing the issues with ASLR and DEP implementation in Windows.

    Also, methods have been found to bypass ASLR in Windows 7.

    http://www.vupen.com/blog/20120710....of_Internet_Explorer_HeapOv_CVE-2012-1876.php -> article describing bypassing ASLR in Windows 7.

    Mac OS X has full ASLR implemented on par with Linux. This includes ASLR with position independent executables (PIE). DLLs in Windows have to be pre-mapped at fixed addresses to avoid conflicts so full PIE is not possible with ASLR in Windows.

    Using Linux distros with similar runtime security mitigations as Lion for a model, client-side exploitation is incredibly difficult without some pre-established local access. Of course, this is self defeating if the goal of the exploitation is to achieve that local access in the first place.

    See the paper linked below about bypassing the runtime security mitigations in Linux for more details.


    The author only manages to do so while already having local access to the OS.

    3) Mac OS X Lion has DEP on stack and heap for both 64-bit and 32-bit processes. Third party software that is 32-bit may lack this feature until recompiled in Xcode 4 within Lion. Not much software for OS X is still 32-bit.

    But, not all software in Windows uses DEP; this includes 64-bit software. See first article linked in #2.

    4) Mac OS X implements canaries using ProPolice, the same mitigation used in Linux. ProPolice is considered the most thorough implementation of canaries. It is known to be much more effective than the similar system used in Windows.

    http://www.blackhat.com/presentations/bh-usa-04/bh-us-04-silberman/bh-us-04-silberman-paper.pdf -> article comparing ProPolice to stack canary implementation in Windows.

    5) Application sandboxing and mandatory access controls (MAC) in OS X are the same thing. More specifically, applications are sandboxed in OS X via MAC. Mac OS X uses the TrustedBSD MAC framework, which is a derivative of MAC from SE-Linux. This system is mandatory because it does not rely on inherited permissions. Both mandatorily exposed services (mDNSresponder, netbios...) and many client-side apps (Safari, Preview, TextEdit…) are sandboxed in Lion.

    Windows does not have MAC. The system that provides sandboxing in Windows, called mandatory integrity controls (MIC), does not function like MAC because it is not actually mandatory. MIC functions based on inherited permissions so it is essentially an extension of DAC (see #1). If UAC is set with less restrictions or disabled in Windows, then MIC has less restrictions or is disabled.

    http://www.exploit-db.com/download_pdf/16031 -> article about Mac sandbox.

    http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb648648(v=VS.85).aspx -> MS documentation about MIC.

    https://media.blackhat.com/bh-eu-11/Tom_Keetch/BlackHat_EU_2011_Keetch_Sandboxes-Slides.pdf -> researchers have found the MIC in IE is not a security boundary.

    6) In relation to DAC and interprocess sandboxing in OS X in comparison with some functionality of MIC in Windows 7 (see #5), the XNU kernel used in OS X has always had more secure interprocess communication (IPC) since the initial release of OS X.

    Mac OS X, via being based on Mach and BSD (UNIX foundation), facilitates IPC using mach messages secured using port rights that implement a measure of access controls on that communication. These access controls applied to IPC make it more difficult to migrate injected code from one process to another.

    Adding difficulty to transporting injected code across processes reduces the likelihood of linking remote exploits to local exploits to achieve system level access.

    As of OS X Lion, the XPC service has also been added to implement MAC (see #5) on IPC in OS X. (http://developer.apple.com/library/...stemStartup/Chapters/CreatingXPCServices.html)

    7) Security benefits of a UNIX foundation

    Not all software vulnerabilities are exploitable. Vulnerabilities that are not exploitable only allow a denial of service condition upon being triggered. Exploitable vulnerabilities allow code execution when triggered.

    There are two methods to achieve code execution in relation to buffer overflows:

    1) RET overwrite = control return address of instruction pointer

    2) SEH (structured exception handler) overwrite = control content of handler that will be executed upon an exception

    To clarify:

    Basically, SEH overwrites provide a second method to exploit a vulnerability in the event that a RET overwrite is unsuccessful or not exploitable. Obviously, more vectors being available to facilitate exploiting a vulnerability increases the number of vulnerabilities that are exploitable. SEH overwrites reduce the number of vulnerabilities that only produce a denial of service condition.

    Mitigations have been developed to prevent SEH overwrites. These include SafeSEH and SEHOP. Methods are known that allow bypassing both mitigations. SafeSEH is bypassed if only one component of the program doesn't implement this mitigation; it is common that not all components implement SafeSEH. SEHOP is bypassed if ASLR is compromised via a memory disclosure vulnerability.

    So, what does this have to do with the security benefits of a UNIX foundation?

    UNIX and UNIX-like operating systems, such as Mac OS X and Linux, don't have structured exception handling. So, SEH overwrites, as a vector to increase the number of exploitable vulnerabilities, doesn't exist in these operating systems. The signalling system used in these operating systems isn't liable to this type of manipulation.

    SEH overwrites do provide a plausible explanation for more vulnerabilities being exploitable in Windows.



    8) Windows has far more public and/or unpatched vulnerabilities than OS X.

    http://www.vupen.com/english/zerodays/ -> list of public 0days.

    http://m.prnewswire.com/news-releas...-vulnerability-in-microsoft-os-110606584.html -> article about 18 year old UAC bypass vulnerability.

    9) Password handling in OS X is much more secure than Windows.

    The default account created in Windows does not require a password. The protected storage API in Windows incorporates the users password into the encryption key for items located in protected storage. If no password is set, then the encryption algorithm used is not as strong. Also, no access controls are applied to items within protected storage.

    In Mac OS X, the system prompts the user to define a password at setup. This password is incorporated into the encryption keys for items stored in keychain. Access controls are implemented for items within keychain.

    Also, Mac OS X Lion uses a salted SHA512 hash, which is still considered cryptographically secure. It is more robust than the MD4 NTLMv2 hash used to store passwords in Windows 7.

    http://www.windowsecurity.com/articles/How-Cracked-Windows-Password-Part1.html -> article about Windows password hashing.

    10) The new runtime security mitigation improvements to be included in Windows 8 have already been defeated.


    To put this into perspective, methods to bypass the new runtime security mitigations in Mac OS X Lion are not yet available.

    11)In regards to recent earlier version of Mac OS X:

    The following article relates to varying levels of security mitigations in different Linux distros but it is applicable in revealing that the runtime security mitigations in some earlier versions of Mac OS X prior to Lion were far from inadequate.


    While Mac OS X Leopard/SL lack full ASLR, Windows Vista/7 have stack canaries (aka stack cookies) that are trivial to bypass.

    The following link shows the issues with stack canaries in Windows. -> http://www.blackhat.com/presentations/bh-usa-04/bh-us-04-silberman/bh-us-04-silberman-paper.pdf


    Windows Vista/7 = NX + ASLR
    Mac OS X Leopard/SL = NX + stack cookies

    These articles show that NX in combination with stack canaries is more difficult to bypass than a combination of NX and ASLR.

    12) Mountain Lion only improves upon the security of Lion.

    BTW, Safari on a Mac running Lion was not hacked at the last pwn2own.
  16. RenoG macrumors 65816

    Oct 7, 2010
    You did not just type all that did you? Please tell me you cut and pasted...
    You just simply can't be that passionate on such a petty topic.
  17. svenmany macrumors newbie

    Jun 19, 2011
    mind share question

    Regarding the opening post here's something I'm interested in.

    I live near Cupertino. More people I know than not have an iPhone. I'm swamped with Apple TV adds. I see almost no mention of Microsoft's phone in the media I pay attention to (limited). The only other phones people talk about are Android ones. It seems that Microsoft's phone has no chance near where I live.

    Is this just a regional thing? Perhaps in other parts of the country people are more aware of the Microsoft phone.

    Does anyone else living near Apple's home have a different impression than I do regarding mind share?
  18. munkery, Sep 27, 2012
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2012

    munkery macrumors 68020


    Dec 18, 2006
    Been cutting and pasting that for years. LOL

    It's my ready made response for threads like this when I see posts like the following:

  19. RenoG macrumors 65816

    Oct 7, 2010
    Nope not me, I live north of you across the bay from SF in Pinole but I work in SF. The one and only place I hear about the windows phone is in these forums. Had it not been for folks talking about here I'd never knew it even existed...


    Ah ok, that makes sense..
  20. thejadedmonkey macrumors 604


    May 28, 2005
    There was some advertising for it like a year ago, but they've backed off. Probably to wait for the WP8 release.

    That's a very one-sided reply though. OS X may have fewer exploits in the wild, but as far as heavy lifting I would have to agree that Windows 7 is the better OS. Just today in fact, my Macbook Air started running at 100% CPU and the battery dropped like a rock. Comparatively, my desktop hasn't had a single problem in the past 3 years, excluding a keylogger I got from a bad wow addon and a bad power supply that took out my HDD.
  21. rendevouspoo macrumors regular

    Jul 3, 2012
    None of the construction industry can run on Mac OS as of right now.
  22. munkery macrumors 68020


    Dec 18, 2006
    Sure, it is one sided if look across all possible points of comparison. But, it isn't one sided if only looking at security.

    Many areas of comparison, such as the UI, are really just a matter of personal preference.

    Comparing a laptop with a low voltage CPU to a desktop in terms of performance in relation to "heavy lifting" activities isn't really a fair comparison.

    I'd rather have my CPU go to 100% while pushing my laptop with a low voltage CPU.
  23. thejadedmonkey macrumors 604


    May 28, 2005
    Sorry I didn't make it clear, I was simply browsing the internet and safari hung. I was commenting on how OS X and its components are unstable, not the sort of hardware that powers the PC.
  24. Dreamliner330 macrumors 6502a

    Sep 1, 2011
    Don't forget that the first iPhone couldn't sent picture messages and it still can't do simultaneous voice/data on Verizon. The 5 also has trouble getting through a full day of LTE.

    No product is without faults. Windows Phone will force Apple to innovate.

    Good for everybody!
  25. munkery macrumors 68020


    Dec 18, 2006

    Stability and security are interrelated given that often due to the same issues. For example, buffer overflows and other memory corruption issues.

    See my post above for more information.

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