Will a powerbook last 3 years?

[Abstract]

I'm still waiting for a single person on this board to offer anything approximating test conditions to show how an iBook is somehow more tough or rugged than a PB. I do NOT deny that it is or may be, I simply think that it is virtually impossible to tell a potential purchaser such as the originator of this thread how exactly the material of their case will play out as a factor in the longevity of their machine, the same way we could say how a faster FSB will play out in the operation of their machine, for example. All we can give is our anecdotal opinions, which is fine, but let's not pretened they're much more than that. The best advice that stems from this discussion, I think, would be to say that if a laptop will be regularly used in compromising conditions, the iBook might be a better choice because it is less of an investment to risk in the first place.

In terms of structural rigidity, the iBook is sturdier.

In terms of the internals and how reliable it is, and how often you'll have to take either an iBook or PB in for repairs, that is luck and has nothing to do with the ruggedness of one machine over another. If you shake either machine hard enough, you could loosen something inside.

But the iBook can take more of a physical beating without physical damage. A scratch isn't what I'm referring to, as it doesn't have anything to do with a laptop's ability to take punishment. I'm just saying that scratches aside, you'd rather have an iBook in your backpack with your books than a PB.

But like I also said already, most people don't just throw their laptop into their backpack without something covering it, and unless you live in an action-adventure movie, either an iBook or PB will be rugged enough.

 

[mcgarry]

In terms of structural rigidity, the iBook is sturdier.
...[snip]
But the iBook can take more of a physical beating without physical damage. A scratch isn't what I'm referring to, as it doesn't have anything to do with a laptop's ability to take punishment. I'm just saying that scratches aside, you'd rather have an iBook in your backpack with your books than a PB.

You might be right. You probably ARE right. But how do you know this? Repeating that something is so doesn't make it so ... how exactly is an iBook tougher? how does the toughness reveal itself? Have you beaten two different laptops in the exact same fashion and observed the different results? In general, this is idle speculation, though again, you may in fact be right anyway. It just stands out to me, since most advice given on this forum does not rest on nearly such thin reeds. No one has any reason to much care, I admit, but for anyone who wishes to make me believe, I can be convinced. I'm just waiting for the evidence. I'm starting to think people mean that iBooks look more rugged.

 

[chicagdan]

Not that I would recommend that anyone follow my lead, but I've dropped my PowerBook G4 12" Rev. A at least a half dozen times and other than picking up a couple of dents, it's suffered no ill effects. You may ask how this could happen ... well, it's a very slippery little sucker and if you use it on a couch and get up too quickly you'll inevitably hear it crashing into the hardwood floor just as you reach the phone at least once during its life.

Yeah yeah yeah, you all baby your PBs and would never let yours take such abuse ... but my Mac has character and I'm reasonably confident it would survive a nuke war given all its gone through so far.

 

[0098386]

will it last? most likely. but! ye must as yeself one question! would ye be wanting that same machine for 3 years?

personally i get a new machine every year. hopefully my Rev D PB will break my tradition. good solid machine, although i am starting to get ever so slight warping problems.

 

[dorqiekat]

Not that I would recommend that anyone follow my lead, but I've dropped my PowerBook G4 12" Rev. A at least a half dozen times and other than picking up a couple of dents, it's suffered no ill effects. You may ask how this could happen ... well, it's a very slippery little sucker and if you use it on a couch and get up too quickly you'll inevitably hear it crashing into the hardwood floor just as you reach the phone at least once during its life.

Yeah yeah yeah, you all baby your PBs and would never let yours take such abuse ... but my Mac has character and I'm reasonably confident it would survive a nuke war given all its gone through so far.

I know what you're talking about. I am extremely anal, if you will, with my PB, yet I had it fall from my lap on campus, crashing on its corner in concrete. It left a massive dent on both the lid and body. Other than the fact that you could see inside the machine through the dent it ran fine. I was surprise that it turned on and resumed as if nothing was wrong. (was in the middle of a tetris game.)

 

[mad jew]

You might be right. You probably ARE right. But how do you know this? Repeating that something is so doesn't make it so ... how exactly is an iBook tougher? how does the toughness reveal itself? Have you beaten two different laptops in the exact same fashion and observed the different results? In general, this is idle speculation, though again, you may in fact be right anyway. It just stands out to me, since most advice given on this forum does not rest on nearly such thin reeds. No one has any reason to much care, I admit, but for anyone who wishes to make me believe, I can be convinced. I'm just waiting for the evidence. I'm starting to think people mean that iBooks look more rugged.

Now now, it's all OK. They're both lovely machines. Take it from me and my friendship groups collective experiences that the iBook will generally put up more of a fight in the battle to destroy it than a PowerBook will. No, I haven't actually done tests to prove this one way or the other but some things don't always need proof! To be honest, it's not an experiment I'd like to undertake. You're obviously the same in that we love our Macs so we don't really want to prematurely trash them in the name of science. Just be satisfied with the findings of other people's experiences, even if they are NOT found using anal scientific techniques.

OK?

 

[mcgarry]

Now now, it's all OK. They're both lovely machines. Take it from me and my friendship groups collective experiences that the iBook will generally put up more of a fight in the battle to destroy it than a PowerBook will. No, I haven't actually done tests to prove this one way or the other but some things don't always need proof! To be honest, it's not an experiment I'd like to undertake. You're obviously the same in that we love our Macs so we don't really want to prematurely trash them in the name of science. Just be satisfied with the findings of other people's experiences, even if they are NOT found using anal scientific techniques.

OK?

Sure, but as some of the recent posts in this thread indicate, your mileage may vary. There's nothing to suggest that your personal experiences and/or those of your friends are in any way especially representative or transferable to an interested purchaser. I don't know what makes you so sure; I'm just not.

I am "satisfied with the findings of other people's experiences," but it's hard to jump from that to a blanket statement about the comparable properties of two laptop lines, when almost none of those experiences include anything approximating a truly direct comparison.

We can compare things like price, size, weight, and component specs very directly. We can even say how certain computers run certain programs, how long they take to do things, and so on. But I still have yet to hear what about relative toughness we can tell to an interested purchaser, with any surety. And if we can't, then maybe we shouldn't. Just a suggestion.

 

[mad jew]

Sure, but as some of the recent posts in this thread indicate, your mileage may vary. There's nothing to suggest that your personal experiences and/or those of your friends are in any way especially representative or transferable to an interested purchaser. I don't know what makes you so sure; I'm just not.

I am "satisfied with the findings of other people's experiences," but it's hard to jump from that to a blanket statement about the comparable properties of two laptop lines, when almost none of those experiences include anything approximating a truly direct comparison.

We can compare things like price, size, weight, and component specs very directly. We can even say how certain computers run certain programs, how long they take to do things, and so on. But I still have yet to hear what about relative toughness we can tell to an interested purchaser, with any surety. And if we can't, then maybe we shouldn't. Just a suggestion.

Sure, agree to disagree? Maybe I'm just less wary of the quality my sources or something... Either way, we're kinda unintentionally highjacking this thread so let's just settle on the fact that quite a few people have had slightly better experiences with iBooks than PowerBooks but either laptop will provide for at least three years assuming it is reasonably well taken care of and nothing untoward happens (dropping/scratching/biting etc.)

 

[mcgarry]

Sure, agree to disagree? Maybe I'm just less wary of the quality my sources or something... Either way, we're kinda unintentionally highjacking this thread so let's just settle on the fact that quite a few people have had slightly better experiences with iBooks than PowerBooks but either laptop will provide for at least three years assuming it is reasonably well taken care of and nothing untoward happens (dropping/scratching/biting etc.)

mad jew,
Actually, I think it is on-topic because in your first post in this thread you said: "Also, the iBooks definitely last longer due to their more robust structure." The original poster asked a question about PBs' longevity, so this is material. I'm glad to see that by this your latest post you seem to have softened that a bit, although I should give some weight to the smiley that accompanied your former statement.

Here's the simplest way I can sum this up: it's one thing to relate a personal experience of amazing iBook toughness, or an opinion about a computer you have used-- no one can deny your experience, nor should they-- it's entirely another thing to relate that experience and then say 'and a PowerBook would have done somehow worse' without any evidence to suggest that. That's not exactly what you're doing here, but you get the idea. It's just odd to me.

SO sure, I'll agree to disagree, but I still would love to have a better idea of what I'm talking about when it comes to this question. I feel like no one really knows. But then again, as we agree, NO laptop likes to be mistreated anyway, so in any case it's best to just try to avoid such unpleasantness.

 

[Abstract]

I'll just sum it up this way --- the iBook is made of a stronger material than the PB's aluminium. Very simple. Polycarbonate plastics (ie: its called Lexan, I believe) are stronger than aluminium sheets that the PB is made from. Heck, Titanium PBs are harder than Alu PB's. The PB materials actually got softer when switching to aluminium. Not sure if the Ti PB's were stronger than the iBooks or not, but I believe they were comparable.

Like Mad Jew already said, some things don't really need "scientific" proof. I'm a scientist, and I don't need proof if you told me that a Porsche was faster than a Honda Civic. A Porsche is fitted with a much more powerful engine and has better aerodynamics, so do you need to provide proof?

Polycarbonate is a harder, more impact resistant material than aluminium. Google "material + polycarbonate + hardness", and there should be a few links to materials science/engineering sites explaining tensile strength and hardness.

Good luck to you in the future.

 

[mcgarry]

I'll just sum it up this way --- the iBook is made of a stronger material than the PB's aluminium. Very simple. Polycarbonate plastics (ie: its called Lexan, I believe) are stronger than aluminium sheets that the PB is made from. Heck, Titanium PBs are harder than Alu PB's. The PB materials actually got softer when switching to aluminium. Not sure if the Ti PB's were stronger than the iBooks or not, but I believe they were comparable.

Like Mad Jew already said, some things don't really need "scientific" proof. I'm a scientist, and I don't need proof if you told me that a Porsche was faster than a Honda Civic. A Porsche is fitted with a much more powerful engine and has better aerodynamics, so do you need to provide proof?

Polycarbonate is a harder, more impact resistant material than aluminium. Google "material + polycarbonate + hardness", and there should be a few links to materials science/engineering sites explaining tensile strength and hardness.

Good luck to you in the future.

I appreciate the effort, but it doesn't answer the question. Someone could build something weak out of polycarbonate or strong out of aluminum if they wanted to. As a "scientist" you know there's more to it than that, and that it's anything but "very simple." There have been cars made of both aluminum and plastic (go Trabant!), for example, but I would not jump to conclusions on their crash-worthiness based on knowledge of the outer body material alone! In any case, you still can't say for sure how the case material choice would affect a laptop in any given situation about which a prospective purchaser might be concerned, you just know it to be so... sorry, not good enough for me, and I'm surprised it's good enough for a scientist.

The Civic/Porsche analogy is pretty bad. With those two things, you can easily compare specs such as displacement, cylinders, weight, and that's just entry-level consumer stuff. Aerodynamics, as you mentioned, can be measured too. Then pick up a car magazine review and they'll break down many many more stats in great detail, some based on extensive road or track testing. There's nothing even remotely like that for this laptop toughness issue.

Good luck to you too!

 

[mad jew]

mad jew,
Actually, I think it is on-topic because in your first post in this thread you said: "Also, the iBooks definitely last longer due to their more robust structure." The original poster asked a question about PBs' longevity, so this is material. I'm glad to see that by this your latest post you seem to have softened that a bit, although I should give some weight to the smiley that accompanied your former statement.

Here's the simplest way I can sum this up: it's one thing to relate a personal experience of amazing iBook toughness, or an opinion about a computer you have used-- no one can deny your experience, nor should they-- it's entirely another thing to relate that experience and then say 'and a PowerBook would have done somehow worse' without any evidence to suggest that. That's not exactly what you're doing here, but you get the idea. It's just odd to me.

SO sure, I'll agree to disagree, but I still would love to have a better idea of what I'm talking about when it comes to this question. I feel like no one really knows. But then again, as we agree, NO laptop likes to be mistreated anyway, so in any case it's best to just try to avoid such unpleasantness.

OK, how about this:

I know thirty people who use Mac laptops which I think is quite a significant number. Of this thirty, most have owned more than one over the past few years so all up it comes to forty five recent laptops - meaning only aluminum PowerBooks and white iBooks. Of these people, all but four of the twelve PBs are dented in some way - whether from dropping or warping or whatever. Of the thirty three iBooks, only one has a significant scratch. IMO, that's a pretty conclusive argument!

 

[kevinuaa]

Also, do you know if microsoft makes OneNote for the mac (normally part of Office), or if anything similar exists for the mac?

Thanks for your time everyone!

Check out MS Office 2004 for mac. has a feature Windows office doesn't...ms word notepad layout. A note taking format that also allows you to record audio notes, and best yet it automatically syncs the recorded audio to what you type. I love this feature! it also allows you to export the audio, so you can listen on your ipod or whatever...

I really wouldn't worry about a PB breaking down. I treat mine like ****, work it like a russian serf, and so far no problem!
Cheers...

 

[mcgarry]

OK, how about this:

I know thirty people who use Mac laptops which I think is quite a significant number. Of this thirty, most have owned more than one over the past few years so all up it comes to forty five recent laptops - meaning only aluminum PowerBooks and white iBooks. Of these people, all but four of the twelve PBs are dented in some way - whether from dropping or warping or whatever. Of the thirty three iBooks, only one has a significant scratch. IMO, that's a pretty conclusive argument!

mehhhhbe, but it's still just anecdotal. That has worth, but it is what it is and nothing more. I have no idea (and possibly neither do you) what caused any of the problems and how another laptop might have done in the same situation. More importantly, I have no idea how you or they define a dent or a warp or a scratch; there could be 30 different definitions. So even if you're not b.s.'ing (the numbers are mildly absurd, but I'll allow that I don't know your situation), it's all just comes down to so much randomness, opinion, impression, and feeling. I'm no "scientist," but this is not the kind of stuff I'd want to go shouting from electronic rooftops. This comes down to being able to claim that one thing would behave differently in a situation in which you observed another thing behave a certain way. It might very well be true, but you're still asking me to take it on faith.

 

[Abstract]

In any case, you still can't say for sure how the case material choice would affect a laptop in any given situation about which a prospective purchaser might be concerned, you just know it to be so... sorry, not good enough for me, and I'm surprised it's good enough for a scientist.

You're joking, right? I almost think that you're going to jump out and yell, "April Fools!" or something.

Assuming the innards are built and installed the same way, what else would make a laptop more sturdy?

http://homepages.which.net/~paul.hills/Materials/MaterialsBody.html

Here, I even looked it up for you this time. Look at "Impact Strength" (energy required to fracture a specimen subjected to shock loading, as in an impact test) and "Hardness" (measure is in Brinell hardness number, and signifies resistance to deformation and indentation).

"Hardness often is a good indication of tensile and wear properties of a material."

Tensile strength isn't really what you're after if you're lugging a laptop everywhere, although aluminium is a bit more elastic (and its not even THAT elastic).

Guess what basketball backboards are made of? Ah yes, polycarbonate. People bounce basketballs of that thing, and nothing. Use the same thickness of aluminium(or same weight, which is what I'd consider), and you wouldn't get the same result with aluminium after a few years of chucking basketballs at it.

So if the innards are put in the same way, and they put together the shell of both laptops under the same considerations and in the same manner, iits really just a matter of materials.

You seem to want to take Chaos theory or something into consideration. Whatever. Its getting absurd.

 

[mcgarry]

Abstract,
You are avoiding the point, by design or by misunderstanding I don't know: how does all this apply to the laptops in question? That site was not testing laptops. That site does not help inform mad jew's original claim that the "iBooks definitely last longer," whatever that means.

Specs such as weight, battery life, price, and CPU speed can be directly compared, or even tested against each other. Case materials are, thus far, still a different story in our particular application. HOW exactly does the toughness of the iBook play out? WHAT can an iBook take that a PowerBook can't? At what point in a given situation does a PowerBook break but an iBook doesn't? Do you have any idea? I am not joking or being rhetorical, I'd actually like to know. I maintain that you may in fact be correct.

All I'm getting from this is that you think iBooks are good for bouncing basketballs off of, and that you'd rather drive a plastic Trabant than an aluminum A8 ... ok, ok, sorry, this time I am kidding.

The point being we are talking about laptop computers here, and you have yet to even come close to showing me how the iBook's materials choice makes it more tough in any given situation that we could use as a point of comparison when talking about laptop choices to a prospective consumer.


EDIT: I was being overly harsh: your point about identical underlying construction is well taken. All other things being equal, your chart might indeed be helpful in determining the "toughness" of a laptop. It still doesn't tell us how an actual iBook or PowerBook will behave in any given situation, in anywhere near the same way other things can be tested by barefeats or such, but it is helpful. The luck exchange worked, no?

 

[mad jew]

mehhhhbe, but it's still just anecdotal. That has worth, but it is what it is and nothing more. I have no idea (and possibly neither do you) what caused any of the problems and how another laptop might have done in the same situation. More importantly, I have no idea how you or they define a dent or a warp or a scratch; there could be 30 different definitions. So even if you're not b.s.'ing (the numbers are mildly absurd, but I'll allow that I don't know your situation), it's all just comes down to so much randomness, opinion, impression, and feeling. I'm no "scientist," but this is not the kind of stuff I'd want to go shouting from electronic rooftops. This comes down to being able to claim that one thing would behave differently in a situation in which you observed another thing behave a certain way. It might very well be true, but you're still asking me to take it on faith.

OK, this is getting really weird.

Firstly, those numbers are real. I'm not sure what part of them is absurd. Sure, they are a little bias in some respects such as generally a the PowerBook people are likely to use their computers more but that's a pretty bad assumption.

Secondly, I've seen all of my friends laptops and I can tell you straight up that the PowerBooks with scratches all looked worse than the single iBook that was damaged. This is a pool of 30 people who admittedly all treat their laptops differently but IMO it's a pretty good sample of the average Apple laptop users.

Thirdly, I tried to settle this earlier by letting you accept that we may never agree (I certainly do). Now that we have evidence from scientific evidence from a scientist (thanks Abstract) maybe you'll come around to the fact that the iBook is sturdier than the PowerBook. Nevertheless, I stand by my earlier comment that either laptop will easily last long enough, with or without scratches.

 

[mcgarry]

...[snip: addressed] ...

Now that we have evidence fromscientific evidence from a scientist (thanks Abstract) maybe you'll come around to the fact that the iBook is sturdier than the PowerBook.

I mention this above, in the edited portion of my post too. The scientist pointed us to a chart that offers helpful information, but does not itself offer any direct evidence about laptop durability or longevity. Helpful, yes; definitive, no. I'm ready and willing to come around to the "fact" when the facts can be established.

Nevertheless, I stand by my earlier comment that either laptop will easily last long enough, with or without scratches.

that's great, it's just not what you said at first ... and what got me started on the ol' horse!

 

[mad jew]

I mention this above, in the edited portion of my post too. The scientist pointed us to a chart that offers helpful information, but does not itself offer any direct evidence about laptop durability or longevity. Helpful, yes; definitive, no. I'm ready and willing to come around to the "fact" when the facts can be established.



that's great, it's just not what you said at first ... and what got me started on the ol' horse!

But why does everything always have to be definitive? Just take some things as-is. Also, I stand by everything I've said so far: both that the iBook will last longer and that both will outlast three years if they're treated properly and nothing random happens to them. Of course, there are always going to be examples to the contrary but IMO I've had quite enough experience of the two to be able to pretty conclusively say the iBooks have been designed more robustly.

As for Abstract's hardness facts, having studied this for some time at uni as part of an engineering degree I can confidently say these are relevant although not definitive due to the susceptibility for scratches of a laptop having something to dow with the contortions of the metal too. Considering the similarity of the shapes of the outside, these numbers are a relatively reliable indication of the two respectable strengths. The only other variable I can think of is the internal frame or chassis.

Anyways, I hope your not taking any of this personally mcgarry because I'm finding the argument really quite enjoyable.

 

[mcgarry]

mad jew,
I probably wouldn't go so far as to say it's been enjoyable, but I am genuinely curious about this and welcome the opportunity to learn more about it. I, too, thank you for your civility and willingness to even have the discussion.

A search of past threads will reveal that I have been told about the basic materials differences before (the scientist was not the first to point this out), and my response was much the same: how does it affect laptop choice? At what point can we say one thing happens to one laptop but not another? At best, the answer is usually a mix of anecdotes and more or less educated guesses. In the worst cases, it is based on little more than a visual impression. In no cases can anyone really say.

So I propose the impossible: short of my ideal situation of actual comparative tests to inform us, let's agree on the following set of points about the good ol' iBook toughness horse, and hope they catch on:

1- iBooks' outer shells are made of a material with some properties we can describe as "tough"
2- the role of this material in determining iBooks' longevity and durability cannot be exactly determined, but may be assumed
3- proper care and feeding can diminish the importance of case materials as a factor in determining the longevity and durability of a laptop


We might also add a point 4, that in practice the rev. D PBs' HDD drop protection might make it more "tough" in a given catastrophic situation, but that's not a major point I'd want to press.

... and thus concludes this episode of the Mac-laptop-nerd Congress, unless of course you have any amendments or changes to suggest.

 

[mad jew]

3- proper care and feeding can diminish the importance of case materials as a factor in determining the longevity and durability of a laptop

You haven't had fun?

That's a really good point about the Rev D PowerBooks. I'm not quite sure what 'feeding' has to do with this. I'm guessing it was a typo? Anyways, I still think there's enough evidence to satisfy me that an iBook will outlast a PowerBook.

 

[mcgarry]

You haven't had fun?

That's a really good point about the Rev D PowerBooks. I'm not quite sure what 'feeding' has to do with this. I'm guessing it was a typo? Anyways, I still think there's enough evidence to satisfy me that an iBook will outlast a PowerBook.

"care and feeding" was a mild stab at humor

You might indeed be right, but again, there's not actually any evidence. As for outlasting, whatever that means, most people would probably agree that the computer that starts out more powerful will last longer, or be more future-proof, as it is out-of-date later. It skirts the minimum recommended system requirements for application xyz that much longer. But, I guess if you bounce basketballs off your computers, this isn't as important ...

 

[minesgeek]

so this has turned into a conversation about "if an ibook and a pb were thrown off a building, which would end up in fewer pieces?"

well i am in the camp that says the pb would just bend and contort into a hand-wrung mess of metal whereas the ibook would shatter into a million pieces because it is plastic.

anyway, make sure that you can use the mac platform for all you needs in school (test taking, researching, etc.), then buy the mac laptop you can afford, want to be seen with on a daily basis, and to the specs that you want. and get applecare. people don't become religously fanatic about their macs for no reason...

 

[hulugu]

...Most law schools require that exams are done on a Windows computer. There is no way to use a Mac for these, so unless you have parents or friends with a laptop you can borrow strictly for test taking, I'd get a PC laptop. I feel sorry, because more often than not, Apple laptops will easily last longer than 3 years, but facts are facts.

Obviously he should check and make sure that this isn't a problem before signing the check, but each law school has different requirements and some are quite Mac-friendly.

Just for anecdotal, I've had my TiBook for 3+ years and it is still humming away just fine, there are a few scratches on the bottom, a dent in the top lid and a little scratching where my watch has banged against the bezel. It is on its second battery and has been upgraded from OSX.1.1 to Panther. I'm considering replacing the HD soon and adding memory. It's been a great machine, still thinner and lighter than most of the PC machines I've set it next to and much better looking. It's been the best computer I've ever owned.

 

[hulugu]

so this has turned into a conversation about "if an ibook and a pb were thrown off a building, which would end up in fewer pieces?"

well i am in the camp that says the pb would just bend and contort into a hand-wrung mess of metal whereas the ibook would shatter into a million pieces because it is plastic.

But, they're both bullet-proof right.