Will AFPS effect older running apps?

blackxacto

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I still use CS5 Photoshop in Sierra successfully. Will the future installation of AFPS effect running older apps such as CS5 or other apps? Or is it simply a new way to store files?
 

KALLT

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They might. Applications that target lower-level APIs or system calls could run into problems. Apps that mostly stick with Apple’s frameworks, will probably not have any problems.
 
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blackxacto

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They might. Applications that target lower-level APIs or system calls could run into problems. Apps that mostly stick with Apple’s frameworks, will probably not have any problems.
Wish I knew what frameworks and system calls are? Can you specify an action these take that might be blocked w AFPS?
 

KALLT

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I cannot answer that. Just be aware that it is possible that some things may be affected, but that is generally true for every system upgrade anyway. You’d have to test it and/or ask the developer.

Apple has not given any specifics about APFS for macOS. It may be the case that Apple will offer a choice for the time being, given the additional complexity that such a system brings as opposed to a tightly-controlled iPhone.
 

TylerL

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Unless something has changed recently, APFS is completely case-sensitive, much like Linux filesystems.
Files named "test" and "TEST" can coexist, where on the old case-insensitive HFS+, they could not.
Adobe has long not supported their apps on case-sensitive filesystems, for weird legacy technical-debt and laziness reasons.
https://helpx.adobe.com/creative-suite/kb/error-case-sensitive-drives-supported.html

iOS is not concerned with this change, since it has always used HFSX, which is a case-sensitive variant of HFS+.

Long story short, you're most likely going to have a bad time getting your old Adobe apps running on macOS 10.13 and such.
Adobe is probably in a panicked rush to get Creative Cloud 2018 working properly on case-sensitive APFS, and there will be much public outcry against both Apple and Adobe for putting people in a difficult upgrade situation.
 

blackxacto

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Unless something has changed recently, APFS is completely case-sensitive, much like Linux filesystems.
Files named "test" and "TEST" can coexist, where on the old case-insensitive HFS+, they could not.
Adobe has long not supported their apps on case-sensitive filesystems, for weird legacy technical-debt and laziness reasons.
https://helpx.adobe.com/creative-suite/kb/error-case-sensitive-drives-supported.html

iOS is not concerned with this change, since it has always used HFSX, which is a case-sensitive variant of HFS+.

Long story short, you're most likely going to have a bad time getting your old Adobe apps running on macOS 10.13 and such.
Adobe is probably in a panicked rush to get Creative Cloud 2018 working properly on case-sensitive APFS, and there will be much public outcry against both Apple and Adobe for putting people in a difficult upgrade situation.
I don't understand why no one is talking about this coming tsunami. I have an entire notebook full of useless powermac cds. Is Apple about to drop another atom bomb on all our software?
 

Nermal

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I would be amazed if Apple doesn't offer a case-insensitive option before making it the default filesystem.
 

TylerL

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KALLT

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There is no evidence that Apple will indeed switch to a case-sensitive file system, so there is no need for panic just yet. Apple’s guide states: “As a Developer Preview, it has several limitations: [...] Case Sensitivity: Filenames are case-sensitive only.” (emphasis added)
 

Nermal

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Interesting, but at the same time I'm not aware of any fundamental reason why there can't be simplified case-insensitivity. Many European languages have trivial rules around this, and while I'm mostly not familiar with other languages I suspect that in many cases they can be kept case-sensitive without breaking much (for example, HFS+ is already kanatype-sensitive for Japanese).
 

KALLT

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Interesting, but at the same time I'm not aware of any fundamental reason why there can't be simplified case-insensitivity. Many European languages have trivial rules around this, and while I'm mostly not familiar with other languages I suspect that in many cases they can be kept case-sensitive without breaking much (for example, HFS+ is already kanatype-sensitive for Japanese).
This article here is a good read: http://drewthaler.blogspot.co.uk/2007/12/case-against-insensitivity.html. It claims that the case-insensitive implementation of HFS+ is not just faulty/limited but also outdated, and that this is chronic and unavoidable for file systems of this kind. I was not leaning in either direction, but I found this article pretty persuasive.
 
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Nermal

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Ugh. What a mess. I didn't even know that ß and β were different characters, not to mention B and Β (which look the same in my current font).

Yes, Aunt Tillie will think that "Muffin Recipe.rtf" and "muffin recipe.rtf" ought to be the same file. But you know what? She'll also think that "Muffin Recipe .rtf" and "Recipe for Muffins.rtf" and "Mufin Recipe.txt" ought to be the same file too.
That's a very sensible argument.

Thinking about it some more, this would absolutely not be the first time that Apple has broken backward compatibility. It will be interesting to see which way it goes.
 
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TylerL

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Looks like APFS WILL have a case-insensitivity option!
Attached is a screenshot of the man page for the apfs_hfs_convert tool in 10.12.4

Code:
     -i | --allow-case-insensitive
                           Convert case-insensitive HFS volumes to case-insensitive APFS volumes. Without
                           this flag, all converted volumes will be case-sensitive.
So, the default action is still to create a case-sensitive volume. It'd be interesting to see if Apple's for-real conversions later this year continue insensitivity.
 

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KALLT

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Interesting find. Though note the phrasing: ‘without this flag, all converted volumes will be case-sensitive’. This means that a conversion from case-insensitive to case-sensitive is not only provided, but also the default. This can imply that case-insensitivity is something to be opted into.
 

TylerL

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Jan 2, 2002
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Interesting find. Though note the phrasing: ‘without this flag, all converted volumes will be case-sensitive’. This means that a conversion from case-insensitive to case-sensitive is not only provided, but also the default. This can imply that case-insensitivity is something to be opted into.
Disk Utility and Finder are confused about volume type after conversion, stating the volume is "APFS (Case-insensitive)" when it's obviously case-sensitive as demonstrated by actions on files in Terminal.

I'd have to think that internally, Apple is not sure what to do about this. "Normal" users may very well freak out when faced with files named "Budget" and "budget" coexisting. It's hard to convince people that case-sensitivity is a "good thing".

The fact that a case-insensitive option is now available makes me think the case-sensitive side at Apple is losing its arguments.
 

KALLT

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I'd have to think that internally, Apple is not sure what to do about this. "Normal" users may very well freak out when faced with files named "Budget" and "budget" coexisting. It's hard to convince people that case-sensitivity is a "good thing".
You should have a look at the link I posted above, it touches upon this argument. It also explains some of the technological challenges.

I think the case-mismatch argument is not very compelling, when you consider that not everyone may see case-insensitivity as the norm either. Users who are confused by a mismatch ought to be equally confused that an intentional capital letter is not distinctive. Moreover, the HFS+ implementation is anglo-centric and not applicable to all languages, not even all other Germanic languages or languages that use the Latin script. It is a one-sided argument in a debate with dozens of similar counterarguments.

The fact that a case-insensitive option is now available makes me think the case-sensitive side at Apple is losing its arguments.
I am not sure about that. If they are contemplating a switch, then having a (transitional) alternative is something they might want to offer. From what I understand, APFS is going to replace HFS+ completely in a short timeframe. It makes sense to me that Apple would offer a case-insensitive variant for external drives or disk images to lessen the blow for people who absolutely must have a case-insensitive option for the time being.

We have not seen APFS in a case-insensitive variant. It begs the question how Apple is going to maintain backwards compatibility with the antiquated implementation in HFS+. As the link explains, case-insensitivity is not a universal concept and they will probably have to make decisions that reflect the decisions they made in the past, just to make this work without conversion problems. It seems doomed to fail. I can see Apple offering a matching case-insensitivity purely as a ‘compatibility mode’.

Disk Utility and Finder are confused about volume type after conversion, stating the volume is "APFS (Case-insensitive)" when it's obviously case-sensitive as demonstrated by actions on files in Terminal.
Are case-sensitive volumes still identified as simply ‘APFS’? That would also be a difference, because currently it is the opposite.
 

blackxacto

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Jun 15, 2009
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Is anyone beta testing, seeing APFS effect older applications, like force an updated application version to run w APFS?
 
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