Will AFPS effect older running apps?

Discussion in 'macOS' started by blackxacto, Jan 24, 2017.

  1. blackxacto macrumors 6502

    blackxacto

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    #1
    I still use CS5 Photoshop in Sierra successfully. Will the future installation of AFPS effect running older apps such as CS5 or other apps? Or is it simply a new way to store files?
     
  2. KALLT macrumors 601

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    #2
    They might. Applications that target lower-level APIs or system calls could run into problems. Apps that mostly stick with Apple’s frameworks, will probably not have any problems.
     
  3. blackxacto thread starter macrumors 6502

    blackxacto

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    #3
    Wish I knew what frameworks and system calls are? Can you specify an action these take that might be blocked w AFPS?
     
  4. KALLT macrumors 601

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    #4
    I cannot answer that. Just be aware that it is possible that some things may be affected, but that is generally true for every system upgrade anyway. You’d have to test it and/or ask the developer.

    Apple has not given any specifics about APFS for macOS. It may be the case that Apple will offer a choice for the time being, given the additional complexity that such a system brings as opposed to a tightly-controlled iPhone.
     
  5. TylerL macrumors regular

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    #5
    Unless something has changed recently, APFS is completely case-sensitive, much like Linux filesystems.
    Files named "test" and "TEST" can coexist, where on the old case-insensitive HFS+, they could not.
    Adobe has long not supported their apps on case-sensitive filesystems, for weird legacy technical-debt and laziness reasons.
    https://helpx.adobe.com/creative-suite/kb/error-case-sensitive-drives-supported.html

    iOS is not concerned with this change, since it has always used HFSX, which is a case-sensitive variant of HFS+.

    Long story short, you're most likely going to have a bad time getting your old Adobe apps running on macOS 10.13 and such.
    Adobe is probably in a panicked rush to get Creative Cloud 2018 working properly on case-sensitive APFS, and there will be much public outcry against both Apple and Adobe for putting people in a difficult upgrade situation.
     
  6. blackxacto thread starter macrumors 6502

    blackxacto

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    #6
    I don't understand why no one is talking about this coming tsunami. I have an entire notebook full of useless powermac cds. Is Apple about to drop another atom bomb on all our software?
     
  7. Nermal Moderator

    Nermal

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    #7
    I would be amazed if Apple doesn't offer a case-insensitive option before making it the default filesystem.
     
  8. TylerL macrumors regular

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    #8
  9. KALLT macrumors 601

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    #9
    There is no evidence that Apple will indeed switch to a case-sensitive file system, so there is no need for panic just yet. Apple’s guide states: “As a Developer Preview, it has several limitations: [...] Case Sensitivity: Filenames are case-sensitive only.” (emphasis added)
     
  10. bartvk macrumors 6502

    bartvk

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    #10
  11. Nermal Moderator

    Nermal

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    Interesting, but at the same time I'm not aware of any fundamental reason why there can't be simplified case-insensitivity. Many European languages have trivial rules around this, and while I'm mostly not familiar with other languages I suspect that in many cases they can be kept case-sensitive without breaking much (for example, HFS+ is already kanatype-sensitive for Japanese).
     
  12. KALLT macrumors 601

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    #12
    This article here is a good read: http://drewthaler.blogspot.co.uk/2007/12/case-against-insensitivity.html. It claims that the case-insensitive implementation of HFS+ is not just faulty/limited but also outdated, and that this is chronic and unavoidable for file systems of this kind. I was not leaning in either direction, but I found this article pretty persuasive.
     
  13. Nermal, Jan 30, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2017

    Nermal Moderator

    Nermal

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    #13
    Ugh. What a mess. I didn't even know that ß and β were different characters, not to mention B and Β (which look the same in my current font).

    That's a very sensible argument.

    Thinking about it some more, this would absolutely not be the first time that Apple has broken backward compatibility. It will be interesting to see which way it goes.
     
  14. TylerL macrumors regular

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    #14
    Looks like APFS WILL have a case-insensitivity option!
    Attached is a screenshot of the man page for the apfs_hfs_convert tool in 10.12.4

    Code:
         -i | --allow-case-insensitive
                               Convert case-insensitive HFS volumes to case-insensitive APFS volumes. Without
                               this flag, all converted volumes will be case-sensitive.
    
    So, the default action is still to create a case-sensitive volume. It'd be interesting to see if Apple's for-real conversions later this year continue insensitivity.
     

    Attached Files:

  15. KALLT macrumors 601

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    #15
    Interesting find. Though note the phrasing: ‘without this flag, all converted volumes will be case-sensitive’. This means that a conversion from case-insensitive to case-sensitive is not only provided, but also the default. This can imply that case-insensitivity is something to be opted into.
     
  16. TylerL macrumors regular

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    #16
    Disk Utility and Finder are confused about volume type after conversion, stating the volume is "APFS (Case-insensitive)" when it's obviously case-sensitive as demonstrated by actions on files in Terminal.

    I'd have to think that internally, Apple is not sure what to do about this. "Normal" users may very well freak out when faced with files named "Budget" and "budget" coexisting. It's hard to convince people that case-sensitivity is a "good thing".

    The fact that a case-insensitive option is now available makes me think the case-sensitive side at Apple is losing its arguments.
     
  17. KALLT macrumors 601

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    #17
    You should have a look at the link I posted above, it touches upon this argument. It also explains some of the technological challenges.

    I think the case-mismatch argument is not very compelling, when you consider that not everyone may see case-insensitivity as the norm either. Users who are confused by a mismatch ought to be equally confused that an intentional capital letter is not distinctive. Moreover, the HFS+ implementation is anglo-centric and not applicable to all languages, not even all other Germanic languages or languages that use the Latin script. It is a one-sided argument in a debate with dozens of similar counterarguments.

    I am not sure about that. If they are contemplating a switch, then having a (transitional) alternative is something they might want to offer. From what I understand, APFS is going to replace HFS+ completely in a short timeframe. It makes sense to me that Apple would offer a case-insensitive variant for external drives or disk images to lessen the blow for people who absolutely must have a case-insensitive option for the time being.

    We have not seen APFS in a case-insensitive variant. It begs the question how Apple is going to maintain backwards compatibility with the antiquated implementation in HFS+. As the link explains, case-insensitivity is not a universal concept and they will probably have to make decisions that reflect the decisions they made in the past, just to make this work without conversion problems. It seems doomed to fail. I can see Apple offering a matching case-insensitivity purely as a ‘compatibility mode’.

    Are case-sensitive volumes still identified as simply ‘APFS’? That would also be a difference, because currently it is the opposite.
     
  18. blackxacto thread starter macrumors 6502

    blackxacto

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    #18
    Is anyone beta testing, seeing APFS effect older applications, like force an updated application version to run w APFS?
     

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