Will Apple ever make a 2-in-1 MacBook?

[johngwheeler]

I think Steve Jobs Refrigerator/Toaster analogy is a good one. The issue is when I use an iPad I am usually consuming information or very minimally editing. The iOS touch interface and apps are optimized for this. Consuming information minimal editing one handed operations. Even with an external keyboard this is the limitation of iOS.
On my Macbook Air, I have a full keyboard. Applications are much more detailed. More menus, more detailed operations and options. I am usually creating content. I rarely use the iPad because my MacBook Air is in my hand or lap.

To me the Refrigerator simples stores the food (iPad) but the toaster takes the food and prepares is for consumption. Everything in the refrigerator is for storage no preparation. The "cooking" is done on specialized devices and by the cooks once withdrawn from the refrigerator (my MacBook Air)

Just my 2 cents

I'd agree with the above as far as the current Apple device offerings are concerned. But wouldn't there be some value in have a single device that could realistically do both jobs by allowing the screen to function as tablet when separated from the keyboard?

Admittedly it would be a larger tablet than an iPad - I think 12" is the sweet spot for these kind of 2-in-1 devices - but one could imagine a Broadwell Core i3 or i5 as being suitable for a 12-inch iPad running some touch-enabled variant of Mac OS X, as well as being a fully featured laptop when connected to its keyboard (containing the ports, SD card etc.)

I'd personally welcome a 12 inch tablet, if it were light enough. If this were combined with a MBA style keyboard (containing additional storage, battery, ports etc), this would be compelling. It could even offer a dual iOS/Mac OS X operating system and both ARM & Intel CPUs, provided they were sufficiently low powered).

This is nothing new - there are Android tablets doing this already. It remains to be seen whether this form-factor is really what catches on, but I do see general purpose laptops getting smaller and lighter, and once everyone already has 7-10" tablet, manufacturers will be looking to provide some value-add in the form of hybrid laptops.

 

[MarvinHC]

its not close to the portability of an iPad.

only if you compare with the iPad mini. I have here in front of me my 11" Air and an iPad 2 in a leather case and there is really not a significant difference. And I know which one out of the two I prefer by a large margin.

 

[electronique]

Will Apple ever make a 2-in-1 MacBook?

Oh lord, I hope not.

 

[Wolfpup]

I'll offer one example of the inconsistency that I'm referring to...
Some system settings are accessible via the "Charms bar"menus. Others are accessible via Live tile shortcuts to desktop applets. While others are only accessible by drilling down through the desktop Control Panel modules.

3 different methods and appearances for dealing with system settings.

I'm not sure where you're getting three from. There are two ways to do a lot of things in 8, and some things you can't access except from the desktop (and I guess a handful of things that bring up the new interface).

They duplicated more things in 8.1, and perhaps that's not all ideal, but on the flip side, most of the things you can't access in metro don't even exist to access on mobile OSes.

At any rate, if you're using it from the desktop you're mostly not bothered by metro if you don't want to be, save that the start menu is full screen, and "regular clicking" the network icon slides over a metro thingee from the side rather than doing an equivalent thing in a bubble like in 7.

I think Steve Jobs Refrigerator/Toaster analogy is a good one. The issue is when I use an iPad I am usually consuming information or very minimally editing. The iOS touch interface and apps are optimized for this. Consuming information minimal editing one handed operations. Even with an external keyboard this is the limitation of iOS.
On my Macbook Air, I have a full keyboard. Applications are much more detailed. More menus, more detailed operations and options. I am usually creating content. I rarely use the iPad because my MacBook Air is in my hand or lap.

You're describing limitations with the iPad and iOS, but not why it is we wouldn't want the iPad to be able to do more.

Even as just a "consumption" device, I find the iPad frustrating because of lack of real multitasking and gigantic limitations probably cause by being RAM starved (i.e. switching programs and suddenly have a tab or program actually dumped from RAM)...not to mention it lacks Flash, it lacks a real file system, it lacks tons of format support (to play video I'd have to first transcode it). It lacks real printer, scanner, support. It lacks the ability to plug in hard drive and flash drives, etc.

I don't see how HAVING those things detracts from anything.

I don't see how that analogy is anything but marketing sillyness to put people off the fact that someone else is doing it better.

Oh lord, I hope not.

Why not?

 

[sracer]

I'm not sure where you're getting three from. There are two ways to do a lot of things in 8, and some things you can't access except from the desktop (and I guess a handful of things that bring up the new interface).

They duplicated more things in 8.1, and perhaps that's not all ideal, but on the flip side, most of the things you can't access in metro don't even exist to access on mobile OSes.

At any rate, if you're using it from the desktop you're mostly not bothered by metro if you don't want to be, save that the start menu is full screen, and "regular clicking" the network icon slides over a metro thingee from the side rather than doing an equivalent thing in a bubble like in 7.

I thought that I described the 3 ways. I supposed that I can give specific examples for each, but your reply would be that most people don't use those functions in Windows. And you would be correct, but that doesn't invalidate the claim that there are a variety of inconsistent ways to access system settings in particular, and UI inconsistencies in general.

You think that Microsoft did a fine job with Windows 8.x. That's fine. I'm not interested in changing your opinion. I have offered a reason why some dislike Windows 8.x that have nothing to do with it simply "being different".

 

[Wolfpup]

I thought that I described the 3 ways. I supposed that I can give specific examples for each, but your reply would be that most people don't use those functions in Windows. And you would be correct, but that doesn't invalidate the claim that there are a variety of inconsistent ways to access system settings in particular, and UI inconsistencies in general.

You think that Microsoft did a fine job with Windows 8.x. That's fine. I'm not interested in changing your opinion. I have offered a reason why some dislike Windows 8.x that have nothing to do with it simply "being different".

That only applies if you're actually using Windows on new form factors. If you are, then not perfectly done, was fixed up some more in 8.1...but the thing is no one else is doing this at all. Apple SHOULD have in 2008 with the iPad, but went the easy route.

Regardless people attacking 8 are always mouse/keyboard users who attack it for irrational reasons, not people actually using it on a tablet complaining that they can't do everything through metro. That's true enough, but a minor annoyance at best. But there's a vicious anti-8 meme that's just not based on reality, like I mentioned I've literally heard things like "there's no desktop!" And "you can't run more than one program at once any more!" and "you can't search!" or "it crashes all the time!" and other things that just have no basis in reality at all.

 

[case2001]

[/COLOR]

I'm not sure where you're getting three from. There are two ways to do a lot of things in 8, and some things you can't access except from the desktop (and I guess a handful of things that bring up the new interface).

They duplicated more things in 8.1, and perhaps that's not all ideal, but on the flip side, most of the things you can't access in metro don't even exist to access on mobile OSes.

At any rate, if you're using it from the desktop you're mostly not bothered by metro if you don't want to be, save that the start menu is full screen, and "regular clicking" the network icon slides over a metro thingee from the side rather than doing an equivalent thing in a bubble like in 7.



You're describing limitations with the iPad and iOS, but not why it is we wouldn't want the iPad to be able to do more.

Even as just a "consumption" device, I find the iPad frustrating because of lack of real multitasking and gigantic limitations probably cause by being RAM starved (i.e. switching programs and suddenly have a tab or program actually dumped from RAM)...not to mention it lacks Flash, it lacks a real file system, it lacks tons of format support (to play video I'd have to first transcode it). It lacks real printer, scanner, support. It lacks the ability to plug in hard drive and flash drives, etc.

I don't see how HAVING those things detracts from anything.

I don't see how that analogy is anything but marketing sillyness to put people off the fact that someone else is doing it better.



Why not?

I understand your points. However I would point out that your are describing abilities the Macbook Air and OS X already have and do well. Nothing your describing is limitation of the form factor of iPad. It is the design of iOS and how it is implemented. It is implemented to allow consumption or review of electronic media. It is designed to insulate the user from having to deal with file systems, transcoding, and needing more than one finger to operate. It is designed to avoid filesystems, device drivers and printer drivers. This makes it simpler for consumption of media and review of media.

I am sure you know this, but there are apps for the iPad/iPhone that can watch most formats without transcoding on local networks and that allow transfer to the iPad/iPhone with web based interfaces. I have always been pretty impressed with the printer support of the iPad/iPhone. It is really nice not to have to deal with printer driver issues for once. I use the camera on the iPhone/iPad as my scanner as well and have been impressed with the results.

Is the iPad/iPhone perfect? No. It would be nice to have a USB port. More options for the printing would be nice. Multitasking would be nice. But these issues don't really make it a 2 in 1 device. They make the iPad more flexible and as you say do not detract from the device at all.

I would be happy if they never bring Flash to the iPad. Sorry if that offends anyone.

 

[Boyd01]

What it's doing is inevitable, and as far as I know it has been successful.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/why-microsoft-stop-producing-surface-224932886.html

Microsoft is bleeding cash from its Surface tablets and may soon have to consider shutting down the business altogether, Computerworld’s Gregg Keizer wrote in a compelling piece against the Surface.

Keizer did his own back-of-the-envelope calculation to estimate that Microsoft has lost $1.73 billion since the Surface’s debut in 2012. The total loss for FY2014 was $680 million, and it was $1.049 million for the year before, according to Keizer.

His calculations also revealed that in the June 2014 quarter alone, the Surface had lost $363 million, the largest quarterly loss for the Surface since Microsoft started releasing quarterly revenue figures.

 

[Wolfpup]

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/why-microsoft-stop-producing-surface-224932886.html

Which is why they've just released the third version, which is the most interesting yet? AFAIK Surface has been doing well, just not the first gen RT model.

EDIT: And anyway, who cares? Why would anyone want one of the most interesting tablets of all time to quit being produced?

 

[case2001]

I actually like windows 8. The surface 3 looks very interesting and I like the Lenovo Yoga. The big issue are the design of the apps. The app has to be designed for tablet use for people to like it. Do not expect to use Microsoft Word in tablet fashion like you do in desktop mode. That is not a fair criticism.
This is why the current crop of 2-1 devices get knocked.

On the iPad/iPhone, the end user has no option but to use apps designed for tablet mode. They get a better experience. If Microsoft can continue with this market and Windows 8, there will be more apps for the a tablet experience and people will use/like it more and more. But it will still be a laptop with a tablet mode.

I just don't think that is the philosophy Apple will follow. They are going for best of class, not jack of all trades. And from their stand point, why not? Why sell one hybrid when you can sell and MacBook Air and an iPad? Or an iPhone for the matter? People will have a better experience on a best of class device and feel the premium they pay worth it.

I had one of the first generations of Windows Phones. It was not bad and could do most of what the iPhone gen 1 did, but is was a pain to do it. Menus small. Difficult to use without a pointer. Menus too deep with too many options. On screen keyboard not usable. My phone had a built in physical keyboard, but it was still a pain. On that model they tried to shrink the desktop for use on a phone. It didn't work.

I really hope Apple continues on the path it is on and improves both devices.
And no FLASH!

 

[kelon111]

If you want a 2 in 1 , just buy a Windows based laptop.

The Fujitsu Lifebook T904 is a decent one so you can start from there.

 

[Wolfpup]

If you want a 2 in 1 , just buy a Windows based laptop.

The Fujitsu Lifebook T904 is a decent one so you can start from there.

Those are sort of interesting, but IMO just too...laptopy. I'd rather have something built to be a tablet like Surface Pro 3.

 

[Wolfpup]

I actually like windows 8. The surface 3 looks very interesting and I like the Lenovo Yoga. The big issue are the design of the apps. The app has to be designed for tablet use for people to like it. Do not expect to use Microsoft Word in tablet fashion like you do in desktop mode. That is not a fair criticism.

Regarding that, what surprised me is after all the years of being told that desktop can't work with touch/mobile...I find it works fantastically in Windows 8.x. They tweaked it a bit and it works better with mouse and keyboard, but at least on a 10.6" screen it's super easy to use it with touch too. In fact it even works through touch through remote desktop from an iPad pretty darned well.

Apparently Office 2013 subtly changes it's interface when touch is being used, makes things spaced further apart and the like. I can't tell but those things work fine with touch too, surprisingly. If I bite the bullet and buy a Surface Pro 3 I'll probably spend more time with the desktop than metro...although actually I guess not since I'll be using it as an ereader a lot, and that'll be with mostly metro programs.

 

[ApfelKuchen]

One point missed is that iOS and OS X are intended for different markets. Even if it included keyboard and support for pointing devices, iOS is optimized for and marketed to people who may be intimidated by a full-fledged PC, or find a PC unnecessary for their needs - the simplified computer for the rest of them. There are very good marketing reasons to never call a smart phone or tablet a "computer," and applications are "apps" instead of "programs" for the same reasons.

You can call them consumption devices if you will, but a huge amount of real work does get done on iOS. It just may not be the work a PC power-user needs to do.

iOS is optimized to run on lean hardware overhead (please, no comments about how much RAM it ought to have), to keep the price down (and the profit margin up). Producing an iOS device that can do what a PC does only muddies those waters.

I think that's a key reason for Surface's less-than-stellar sales record. It's not offering something most tablet users want or need, especially at the price. It's offering something that some PC/laptop users want, and the number of PC users is not on an up-trend. (I wonder what percentage of Surface owners buy the "optional" keyboard, and of those, how many ever leave it behind?)

Will Apple gradually introduce more touch features to OS X? Undoubtedly. Will they be incorporated into screens as well as trackpads and MagicMouse? Seems possible, if not likely. It's just not going to be marketed as an iOS product. Even if it includes an iOS emulation mode.

We're far more likely to see a detachable-keyboard "MacBook" than an iSomething that can support professional-strength OS X apps, external Thunderbolt devices, etc.

Meantime, Apple's been signaling its "grand unification theory" quite loudly - data in the cloud, seamless task hand-off between devices and platforms. Multi-device ecosystem, not one-device-does-all. It plays to Apple's closed-system strengths. All they have to do is continue to improve execution and integration.

 

[sracer]

Which is why they've just released the third version, which is the most interesting yet? AFAIK Surface has been doing well, just not the first gen RT model.

Not quite correct. Microsoft took a near $1 billion hit mostly due to the 1st gen RT, but they've written off another $340+ million... some of that due to the cost associated with the development of the Surface Mini, but not all of it. The Surface Pro 3 has yet to prove profitable (or loss) for Microsoft.

EDIT: And anyway, who cares? Why would anyone want one of the most interesting tablets of all time to quit being produced?

That person was responding to your belief:

What it's doing is inevitable, and as far as I know it has been successful.

It all comes down to the definition of "successful". I don't think you were referring to financial success, but to the technical success of merging notebook with tablet. On that point I've already explained why I believe they were not successful... yet.

 

[case2001]

One point missed is that iOS and OS X are intended for different markets. Even if it included keyboard and support for pointing devices, iOS is optimized for and marketed to people who may be intimidated by a full-fledged PC, or find a PC unnecessary for their needs - the simplified computer for the rest of them. There are very good marketing reasons to never call a smart phone or tablet a "computer," and applications are "apps" instead of "programs" for the same reasons.

You can call them consumption devices if you will, but a huge amount of real work does get done on iOS. It just may not be the work a PC power-user needs to do.

iOS is optimized to run on lean hardware overhead (please, no comments about how much RAM it ought to have), to keep the price down (and the profit margin up). Producing an iOS device that can do what a PC does only muddies those waters.

I think that's a key reason for Surface's less-than-stellar sales record. It's not offering something most tablet users want or need, especially at the price. It's offering something that some PC/laptop users want, and the number of PC users is not on an up-trend. (I wonder what percentage of Surface owners buy the "optional" keyboard, and of those, how many ever leave it behind?)

Will Apple gradually introduce more touch features to OS X? Undoubtedly. Will they be incorporated into screens as well as trackpads and MagicMouse? Seems possible, if not likely. It's just not going to be marketed as an iOS product. Even if it includes an iOS emulation mode.

We're far more likely to see a detachable-keyboard "MacBook" than an iSomething that can support professional-strength OS X apps, external Thunderbolt devices, etc.

Meantime, Apple's been signaling its "grand unification theory" quite loudly - data in the cloud, seamless task hand-off between devices and platforms. Multi-device ecosystem, not one-device-does-all. It plays to Apple's closed-system strengths. All they have to do is continue to improve execution and integration.

I completely agree. I just don't know why we would ever really need a detachable keyboard MacBook though.

 

[ApfelKuchen]

I completely agree. I just don't know why we would ever really need a detachable keyboard MacBook though.

I should have included "touchscreen" in the product definition.

It goes back to the original premise of this thread. There are definitely laptop users out there who need the power and features of a PC part of the time, and would like to use it as a tablet at other times - why carry both? That's the mirror-image of my own usage pattern with my iPad.

Power-wise, my iPad is all the "laptop" I need when I go on the road, but I'm also far more productive when I have a physical keyboard. The combination of iPad and Bluetooth keyboard is lighter and more compact than a MBA. But around town and around the house? I have my desktops for keyboard input. The iPad alone is perfect for my other needs, and I'm far more likely to carry it around (and benefit from it) than I would if it was a laptop.

If I needed MacBook power on the road, I'd like the idea that it could double as an iPad for use around town and at home. For my purposes, that means a detachable touch screen and the ability to, at the least, run iOS in an emulation.

I don't have a problem with having a PC take on additional load and complexity. It's inherent in what we all expect of PCs. But iOS devices don't need to take on the complexity of a PC.