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Other Will Apple return with Touch ID under the glass?

JPack

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IHS Markit: [Display Dynamics] Display-based fingerprint solutions Q & A

Question: Will Apple return with Touch ID under the glass?

Answer: No, Apple will not return to Touch ID under the glass. Apple already applied for many DFP patents. The silicon Touch ID conflicts with 18:9 displays (or wider aspect ratios like 19.5:9) because there is no space for the silicon fingerprint sensor on the screen. We believe Apple will continue to use Face ID, which is on the current iPhone X, for two to three years until it develops its own DFP solution, possibly ultrasonic. Apple’s evolutionary steps will be as follows:

  • Use structured light for Face ID to solve its biometric ID needs. Meanwhile, build a mature supply chain for the next steps—vertical-cavity surface-emitting laser (VCSEL) light source and diffractive optics element (DOE) by wafer-level optics.
  • Use the artificial reality (AR) kit only to support the 2D camera, with no 3D depth sensing. Make AR well-known to end users.
  • Develop a new display fingerprint (DFP) technology to replace Face ID for biometric ID on the front side of the smartphone.
  • Enhance its structured light solution—or develop time-of-flight (ToF) or active stereo vision—to deliver a 3D sensing upgrade to the AR kit.
  • Develop an optical wafer-level package to solve the camera issue on the rear side of the phone.
The above interview with David Hsieh from IHS was published May 2018.

What David is saying is, current fingerprint solutions are all under-display technologies. Apple won't try to cram the Touch ID silicon under the glass. Apple will however, wait for TFT-based sensors (true in-display) solutions before implementing. These are known as Display Fingerprint solutions (DFP) and are less bulky and offer better performance.

When I read this last year, I was hesitant about about Apple ditching Face ID. Now, with Kuo and Credit Suisse opinions converging, it seems very likely we'll see and end to Face ID. It appears Apple's strategic plan is to use VCSEL and DOE technology and supply chain developed for Face ID and put it to use at the back of the iPhone. Putting this technology on the front of the phone is overkill for biometrics and Animojis and doesn't allow for bezel-less displays. You want 3D mapping on the rear camera to see the world in AR terms.

If you're wondering who David Hsieh is, he is basically the Ming-Chi Kuo of the display world with about 30 years of experience in the industry. He used to be VP of DisplaySearch for those who have been following the industry for the past few decades.
 

FFR

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IHS Markit: [Display Dynamics] Display-based fingerprint solutions Q & A

Question: Will Apple return with Touch ID under the glass?

Answer: No, Apple will not return to Touch ID under the glass. Apple already applied for many DFP patents. The silicon Touch ID conflicts with 18:9 displays (or wider aspect ratios like 19.5:9) because there is no space for the silicon fingerprint sensor on the screen. We believe Apple will continue to use Face ID, which is on the current iPhone X, for two to three years until it develops its own DFP solution, possibly ultrasonic. Apple’s evolutionary steps will be as follows:

  • Use structured light for Face ID to solve its biometric ID needs. Meanwhile, build a mature supply chain for the next steps—vertical-cavity surface-emitting laser (VCSEL) light source and diffractive optics element (DOE) by wafer-level optics.
  • Use the artificial reality (AR) kit only to support the 2D camera, with no 3D depth sensing. Make AR well-known to end users.
  • Develop a new display fingerprint (DFP) technology to replace Face ID for biometric ID on the front side of the smartphone.
  • Enhance its structured light solution—or develop time-of-flight (ToF) or active stereo vision—to deliver a 3D sensing upgrade to the AR kit.
  • Develop an optical wafer-level package to solve the camera issue on the rear side of the phone.
The above interview with David Hsieh from IHS was published May 2018.

What David is saying is, current fingerprint solutions are all under-display technologies. Apple won't try to cram the Touch ID silicon under the glass. Apple will however, wait for TFT-based sensors (true in-display) solutions before implementing. These are known as Display Fingerprint solutions (DFP) and are less bulky and offer better performance.

When I read this last year, I was hesitant about about Apple ditching Face ID. Now, with Kuo and Credit Suisse opinions converging, it seems very likely we'll see and end to Face ID. It appears Apple's strategic plan is to use VCSEL and DOE technology and supply chain developed for Face ID and put it to use at the back of the iPhone. Putting this technology on the front of the phone is overkill for biometrics and Animojis and doesn't allow for bezel-less displays. You want 3D mapping on the rear camera to see the world in AR terms.

If you're wondering who David Hsieh is, he is basically the Ming-Chi Kuo of the display world with about 30 years of experience in the industry. He used to be VP of DisplaySearch for those who have been following the industry for the past few decades.


Not going to happen op.

Face ID is here to stay.
 
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vertical smile

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I would like to see a return to Touch ID, or some form of it.

I have not used Face ID, but based off of many posts about the issues with it, and demonstrations I have viewed, I would rather stick with Touch ID.

Based off the many rumors, I think that Face ID was the solution to Apple failing to put Touch ID under glass, I don't think that Apple has just given up on it. So, we might see some form of it in the future.
 
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FFR

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I used to be be part of that camp.

But seasoned industry watchers are saying otherwise and their reasoning makes sense.

Seasoned industry watchers are saying that apple will include an in display fingerprint sensor in 2024 or 2025, ok. .

Did they also predict Face ID back in 2013 or 2012?
Or Touch ID back in 2008 or 2007? Nope. Wouldn’t listen to anyone that claims they know what apple will do in 4 to 5 years.

Apple went all in with Face ID, they even said as much on multiple occasions, Touch ID isn’t coming back, neither is the headphone jack, floppy disks or tail fins on cars.

Maybe when Samsung finally copies Face ID next year or the year after these rumors can be put to rest. Pixel 4 is rumored to be ditching fingerprint sensors for a Face ID clone this year. So the industry is moving forward.
 
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JPack

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Based off the many rumors, I think that Face ID was the solution to Apple failing to put Touch ID under glass, I don't think that Apple has just given up on it. So, we might see some form of it in the future.

Apple is being granted patents on ultrasonic and CIS fingerprint display sensors every few months. I don't think there's any doubt Apple is still pursuing it.

Now that the supply chain is planning for 2020/2021 products, we're starting to see Kuo and other analysts report on that.

Face ID made sense at the time because:
  • Apple wanted a better screen to bezel ratio
  • Under-display and in-display solutions were not mature
  • Apple wanted to develop AR for the rear camera, but supply chain wasn't ready
 
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FFR

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Apple has lots of parents in almost everything doesn’t mean its meant for the iPhone.

Your forgetting apple about apple squiring authentec for their capacitive finger sensor technology and prime sense for their tracking technology that was later developed into Face ID.

Apple hasn’t purchased any companies working on fingerprint biometrics in the touchsensing layer.

You seem to really want Touch ID back, Doesn’t look like it’s going to happen.
 
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JPack

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Apple has lots of parents in almost everything doesn’t mean its meant for the iPhone.

Your forgetting apple about apple squiring authentec for their capacitive finger sensor technology and prime sense for their tracking technology that was later developed into Face ID.

Apple hasn’t purchased any companies working on fingerprint biometrics in the touchsensing layer.

You seem to really want Touch ID back, Doesn’t look like it’s going to happen.

Doesn't make any sense. Apple didn't buy Lumentum or Finisar for Face ID.
 
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ApfelKuchen

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We all like to prognosticate, and some even get paid well to do it.

What I need to see is an analysis of why fingerprints would be an improvement over Face ID. I don't mean, "I'd prefer it" for whatever personal reasons you may have, but a functional improvement to the user experience, increased security, greater accuracy, lower costs... whatever.

The analysts are generally viewing things through "What would be good for this vendor or that vendor?" They're trying to guide investment decisions. So when Vendor A announces a promising new technology or Vendor B boasts of reduced fabrication costs they start to consider whether Apple might get on board, and if so, when. Their insider info may consist of, "Well, we recently pitched Apple on this, and they seemed interested."
 
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JPack

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We all like to prognosticate, and some even get paid well to do it.

What I need to see is an analysis of why fingerprints would be an improvement over Face ID. I don't mean, "I'd prefer it" for whatever personal reasons you may have, but a functional improvement to the user experience, increased security, greater accuracy, lower costs... whatever.

The analysts are generally viewing things through "What would be good for this vendor or that vendor?" They're trying to guide investment decisions. So when Vendor A announces a promising new technology or Vendor B boasts of reduced fabrication costs they start to consider whether Apple might get on board, and if so, when. Their insider info may consist of, "Well, we recently pitched Apple on this, and they seemed interested."

Guys like David Hsieh don't have a vested interest in any vendor. IHS Markit is vendor agnostic, they're reporting on the market and forecasting 2-3 years ahead.

For Face ID, there are obvious cost disadvantages. It takes up physical space and reduces space available for rear lenses, including future rear ToF sensor and VCSEL. From a usability factor, it's on par with Touch ID. There are issues with camera angle and it has issues with illumination in bright backgrounds.

Fingerprint offers continuous authentication. Every time you touch, you're authenticating. You can't do that without using large amounts of power with Face ID. Fingerprint is a thinner solution compared to Face ID/VCSEL. There are obvious cost advantages.

It's similar to 3D Touch story. It's nice to have, but by removing it, Apple gets a thinner package and a stronger display at a much lower cost. Apple can redirect materials cost to the rear lenses.
 
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FFR

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Doesn't make any sense. Apple didn't buy Lumentum or Finisar for Face ID.

Your the one not making much sense.
Why would the buy the component manufacturer.

As I said in my previous post, They bought prime sense for Face ID back in 2013 a year after launching Touch ID and autentec in 2012.

Apple was working on Face ID from the beginning, Touch ID was always a stopgap technology until they got Face ID up and running.
 
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JPack

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Your the one not making much sense.
Why would the buy the component manufacturer.

As I said in my previous post, They bought prime sense for Face ID back in 2013 a year after launching Touch ID and autentec in 2012.

Apple was working on Face ID from the beginning, Touch ID was always a stopgap technology until they got Face ID up and running.

So Apple has to buy every single tech company to develop it?

The AuthenTec unit within Apple can't possibly develop DFP tech on their own?
 
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FFR

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So Apple has to buy every single tech company to develop it?

Not ever single tech company, just two, one for Touch ID and one for Face ID, but Pretty much. Thats what apple does when implementing biometric security on their devices, they don’t just buy components, rather they buy the entire technology behind it.

So if apple wanted to develop FPS in the touch sensing layer to implement in devices 4 years from now, they would have already bought a company that specializes in said tech, they haven’t.


The AuthenTec unit within Apple can't possibly develop DFP tech on their own?

Nope authentec was responsible for certain elements of the Secure Enclave and capacitive fingerprint sensor tech and that’s it.

if apple wanted to continue with a FPS solution they wouldn’t have bought prime sense in 2013 to develop Face ID and launch it in 2017.



Like i said in my first post... not going to happen.
 
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kre62

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Not ever single tech company, just two, one for Touch ID and one for Face ID, but Pretty much. Thats what apple does when implementing biometric security on their devices, they don’t just buy components, rather they buy the entire technology behind it.

So if apple wanted to develop FPS in the touch sensing layer to implement in devices 4 years from now, they would have already bought a company that specializes in said tech, they haven’t.




Nope authentec was responsible for certain elements of the Secure Enclave and capacitive fingerprint sensor tech and that’s it.

if apple wanted to continue with a FPS solution they wouldn’t have bought prime sense in 2013 to develop Face ID and launch it in 2017.



Like i said in my first post... not going to happen.

Dont know why you are so on the defensive about this. What do you care what authentication capability the new phones have? Are you on the board of a company that provides face id components or something?

I personally find the info to be very credible and think it's likely to happen. And I'm glad for it as well, as face id is just OK.
 
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vertical smile

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Dont know why you are so on the defensive about this

I don't think that @FFR is being defensive about Face ID, I just think that @FFR is skeptical about the Q&A.

But, it does seem like some people get defensive when it comes to criticism of Face ID. A few years ago, I also noticed people on the forum getting defensive when it came to criticism of 3D Touch, but not so much anymore.
 
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FFR

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Dont know why you are so on the defensive about this. What do you care what authentication capability the new phones have? Are you on the board of a company that provides face id components or something?

Defensive? No I’m just based in reality.

People believe what they want to believe, doesn’t mean it will come true.

I personally find the info to be very credible and think it's likely to happen. And I'm glad for it as well, as face id is just OK.

What info? That apple bought a company specializing in display fingerprint sensing technology that doesn’t exist yet. no because that’s what they did with both Touch ID and Face ID.

Sure Touch ID will be featured once again on an iPhone in 2-3 , because David said so. /s
 
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JPack

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I don't think that @FFR is being defensive about Face ID, I just think that @FFR is skeptical about the Q&A.

But, it does seem like some people get defensive when it comes to criticism of Face ID. A few years ago, I also noticed people on the forum getting defensive when it came to criticism of 3D Touch, but not so much anymore.


FFR's argument is basically, Apple didn't buy a tech company related to display fingerprint tech. As a result, DFP couldn't possibly happen. It's a pretty weak argument. Based on that theory, Apple wouldn't have their own GPU because they never bought Imagination. And wouldn't be developing their own baseband because they never bought MediaTek.
 
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Nipommu

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People saying that TouchID will not be back is ridiculous. Technology is always changing and will adopt and fit into whatever makes most sense. Remember 3D Touch now going away but when it was announced it was the most matter of fact feature on the phone.

Why doesn't this make sense? If Apple somehow figured out a way to properly fit a camera under the display in which will make a way to a notchless phone. Why would they go for a hole cutout just for the FaceID? If they had the tech to embed a TouchID into the screen they would go for it for that all screen look. But given obviously the tech will be developed and cost for them comes down.

All this said it won't be ready until 2021-2022.
 
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Wide opeN

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Face ID is superior in every way. Couldn't see Apple taking a step back like that, doesn't make sense.

1, in 50000 vs. 1,1000000

Can any of the tech you're suggesting increase those odds!? Seriously asking...

I used to be team Touch ID too, then I saw the light with my first Face ID device. TBH, good riddance Touch ID. You served well, but your watch is now over.

More plausible I think is the shrinkage of the notch, and possibly one day Face ID under the screen.

Love my notch, rounded corners and above all FACE ID!!!
 
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FFR

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FFR's argument is basically, Apple didn't buy a tech company related to display fingerprint tech. As a result, DFP couldn't possibly happen

Yes, In a nutshell.

Authentec -> Touch ID
Prime sense in 2013 -> Face ID

Authentec specialized in capacitive sensors, not in display sensors which are optical or ultrasonic.

It's a pretty weak argument.

In your opinion, but apple has historically purchased each biometric technology going into its devices.


Based on that theory, Apple wouldn't have their own GPU because they never bought Imagination.

Your wrong again on several points.

1) apple did have a 10 percent stake in imagination.
https://www.macrumors.com/2009/06/26/apple-raises-stake-in-imagination-technologies-to-9-5/


2) apple decides it doesn’t want to buy imagination, instead hiring a large amount of imagination employees including their coo and setting up an office for them in st Albans (close to imagination hq)
https://www.businessinsider.com/apple-poaches-imagination-technologies-coo-2016-10?r=US&IR=T


3) apple disclosed it was working on it on gpu.
“In a statement, Imagination said Apple had said it is "working on a separate, independent graphics design in order to control its products."”
https://money.cnn.com/2017/04/03/investing/apple-imagination-technologies-stock/index.html


4) apple hires more amd engineers to work on the gpu, apparently they have been working on the gpu for 4 years.
“Apple has been reportedly working on a GPU project for at least four years. By early 2013 it was known to have hired a dozen former AMD graphics engineers working near Orlando, while posting job openings involving topics such as "modeling GPU hardware."
https://iphone.appleinsider.com/art...e-gpu-one-giant-leap-in-graphics-for-iphone-8

5) apple releases first gpu
“Here’s Why Apple’s Custom GPU and A11 Bionic Chip Are Utterly Revolutionary”
https://futurism.com/heres-why-apples-custom-gpu-and-a11-bionic-chip-are-utterly-revolutionary


And wouldn't be developing their own baseband because they never bought MediaTek.

Mediatek. Ofcourse not. Why would apple want that crap.

No they hired engineers from Broadcom and Qualcomm.
https://www.macrumors.com/2014/04/09/apple-broadcom-engineers/

Then they got Intels head of 5g in February.
https://iphone.appleinsider.com/art...-modem-lead-just-prior-to-qualcomm-settlement

So baseband and gpu they hired a bunch of people to do it.

So yeah. Good luck with the iPhone bringing back the finger print sensor because David said so.



Just don’t be disappointed if it never happens.
 
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JPack

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Yes, In a nutshell.

Authentec -> Touch ID
Prime sense in 2013 -> Face ID

Authentec specialized in capacitive sensors, not in display sensors which are optical or ultrasonic.



In your opinion, but apple has historically purchased each biometric technology going into its devices.




Your wrong again on several points.

1) apple did have a 10 percent stake in imagination.
https://www.macrumors.com/2009/06/26/apple-raises-stake-in-imagination-technologies-to-9-5/


2) apple decides it doesn’t want to buy imagination, instead hiring a large amount of imagination employees including their coo and setting up an office for them in st Albans (close to imagination hq)
https://www.businessinsider.com/apple-poaches-imagination-technologies-coo-2016-10?r=US&IR=T


3) apple disclosed it was working on it on gpu.
“In a statement, Imagination said Apple had said it is "working on a separate, independent graphics design in order to control its products."”
https://money.cnn.com/2017/04/03/investing/apple-imagination-technologies-stock/index.html


4) apple hires more amd engineers to work on the gpu, apparently they have been working on the gpu for 4 years.
“Apple has been reportedly working on a GPU project for at least four years. By early 2013 it was known to have hired a dozen former AMD graphics engineers working near Orlando, while posting job openings involving topics such as "modeling GPU hardware."
https://iphone.appleinsider.com/art...e-gpu-one-giant-leap-in-graphics-for-iphone-8

5) apple releases first gpu
“Here’s Why Apple’s Custom GPU and A11 Bionic Chip Are Utterly Revolutionary”
https://futurism.com/heres-why-apples-custom-gpu-and-a11-bionic-chip-are-utterly-revolutionary




Mediatek. Ofcourse not. Why would apple want that crap.

No they hired engineers from Broadcom and Qualcomm.
https://www.macrumors.com/2014/04/09/apple-broadcom-engineers/

Then they got Intels head of 5g in February.
https://iphone.appleinsider.com/art...-modem-lead-just-prior-to-qualcomm-settlement

So baseband and gpu they hired a bunch of people to do it.

So yeah. Good luck with the iPhone bringing back the finger print sensor because David said so.



Just don’t be disappointed if it never happens.

In short, Apple now uses the brain drain method instead of buying out tech companies.

Thanks for confirming.
[doublepost=1563572465][/doublepost]
Face ID is superior in every way. Couldn't see Apple taking a step back like that, doesn't make sense.

1, in 50000 vs. 1,1000000

Can any of the tech you're suggesting increase those odds!? Seriously asking...

I used to be team Touch ID too, then I saw the light with my first Face ID device. TBH, good riddance Touch ID. You served well, but your watch is now over.

More plausible I think is the shrinkage of the notch, and possibly one day Face ID under the screen.

Love my notch, rounded corners and above all FACE ID!!!

Those odds are based on scanner resolution and quality. The odds of having identical fingerprints is estimated to be 1 in 64 billion.

For the record, I prefer Face ID.

But with credible supply chain guys predicting one after another a return to fingerprint biometrics, it's more interesting to discuss why and when, rather than if the transition will occur.
 
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TalkShowHost!

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Apple invested a lot of time and money in developing face ID. It doesn’t seem like they would ditch it three to four years after introducing it, especially after they emphasized how much more secure it is over touch ID.
 
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FFR

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In short, Apple now uses the brain drain method instead of buying out tech companies

Sure for baseband and gpu.
But not for biometric solutions they buy that outright.


But with credible supply chain guys predicting one after another a return to fingerprint biometrics, it's more interesting to discuss why and when, rather than if the transition will occur.

Last time you cited credible sources you claimed the iPad mini was EOL.
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/apples-realization-that-ipad-mini-was-the-wrong-bet.2109394/
 
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