MP 7,1 Will Apple upgrade the 256 GB boot drive?

[Moof1904]

I upgraded the number of cores when I ordered my Mac Pro but was on a bit of a budget so I foolishly decided not to upgrade the boot drive beyond 256 GB. I know I can install some other PCI-based SSD solution and boot from it instead but I'd prefer to have the solution that I should have ordered to begin with: a 1 TB or more boot drive from Apple.

Does anyone know if Apple will upgrade my boot drive if I bring my Mac Pro in and pay the difference?

To save time for those just wanting an answer, I'm editing this to add the answer from Apple: No, it is not possible for an owner to bring a 7,1 Mac Pro back in to Apple to have the boot drive upgraded. The only option available is to return the MP during the 14-day return period and purchase a different configuration.

 

[gazwas]

I believe that is the only way to upgrade the boot drive on the Mac Pro due to the T2 security chip.

If they have the drives in store to upgrade the Mac Pro is however very unlikely. Best to book this in with a phone call to Apple first IMO.

 

[defjam]

Anyone know if it is possible to use older Apple SSDs in the 2019 Mac Pro?

 

[deconstruct60]

....

Does anyone know if Apple will upgrade my boot drive if I bring my Mac Pro in and pay the difference?

Technically an authorized service provider can. Pragmatically though this wouldn't be a "walk in and walk out", unscheduled appointment. Doubtful Apple has an extensive "extra modules" supply laying around for that at the moment. I suspect you'd probably would want to start a conversation with a service provide location and have them investigate what the logistics timeline and gyrations needed to set that up.

Also likely not just the part cost difference. There is probably labor charge mixed into also. Whether Apple has tricked that out to the stores or not may be a dangling issue also.

The best thing to do is call the authorized services provider of your choosing and ask them.
[automerge]1578586948[/automerge]

Anyone know if it is possible to use older Apple SSDs in the 2019 Mac Pro?

No. The modules being replaced are NOT SSDs. So an older SSD obviously won't work. It isn't even the same "thing".

 

[gazwas]

Anyone know if it is possible to use older Apple SSDs in the 2019 Mac Pro?

I could be wrong but I'd imagine as Apple has to do the work to install the new drives they would only certify the use of officially supported upgrades rather than ones taken out of an older Mac so they can guarantee the work and reliability of the drive.

 

[tsialex]

Anyone know if it is possible to use older Apple SSDs in the 2019 Mac Pro?

It's the same as iMac Pro 2017 NAND modules, but you can't install it yourself. The pairing of the NAND modules with T2 is made by an internal Apple software similar of Apple Configurator.

Sometime ago there were posts on TaoBao claiming that the app was leaked, no one could confirm or deny it. I personally assumed that it was a hoax.

 

[Quu]

Kinda funny that you have to take the entire computer to the store just to swap the SSD. If they even offer such an upgrade.

 

[Moof1904]

Thanks, Gang. I'll give Apple a call and see what they say.

 

[Coyote2006]

deleted

 

[deconstruct60]

Kinda funny that you have to take the entire computer to the store just to swap the SSD. If they even offer such an upgrade.

Not weird at all in that it is basically the internals of an SSD and not a whole SSD. If there is a problem with the off the shelf SSD you buy ... can you casually fix that with some extra parts you bought off the shelf.? Nope. Same thing here.

That only thing "funny" here is that applying functionality to something that it is not. They happen to look somewhat the same that doesn't make them the same. A dog and a cat have four legs and a tail but they aren't the same. Basically the same thing is going on here.

This is all primarily overblown form (what it looks like) over function ( what it actually does). The T2 storage and the additional T2 functions are a different set of functionality than off the shelf drives.


Offer such an upgrade.... Apple doesn't really directly do that.

Install or replace parts in Mac Pro.

".. Mac Pro supports up to two solid-state drive (SSD) modules. If you need to remove and replace the SSD modules, contact Apple or an Apple Authorized Service Provider. ..."

"remove and replace" isn't necessarily upgrade. It doesn't completely rule it out, but this isn't the primary path outlined.

 

[gazwas]

Kinda funny that you have to take the entire computer to the store just to swap the SSD. If they even offer such an upgrade.

Standard boot drive SSD yes due to the security features of the T2 chip.

You are free to do as you wish with any other drive in the Mac Pro including making any other drive bootable if you don’t appreciate the security offered by T2.

Personally can’t think of any other sensible way of doing it.

 

[defjam]

Not weird at all in that it is basically the internals of an SSD and not a whole SSD. If there is a problem with the off the shelf SSD you buy ... can you casually fix that with some extra parts you bought off the shelf.? Nope. Same thing here.

That only thing "funny" here is that applying functionality to something that it is not. They happen to look somewhat the same that doesn't make them the same. A dog and a cat have four legs and a tail but they aren't the same. Basically the same thing is going on here.

This is all primarily overblown form (what it looks like) over function ( what it actually does). The T2 storage and the additional T2 functions are a different set of functionality than off the shelf drives.


Offer such an upgrade.... Apple doesn't really directly do that.

Install or replace parts in Mac Pro.

".. Mac Pro supports up to two solid-state drive (SSD) modules. If you need to remove and replace the SSD modules, contact Apple or an Apple Authorized Service Provider. ..."

"remove and replace" isn't necessarily upgrade. It doesn't completely rule it out, but this isn't the primary path outlined.

I think the point is that something as simple as replacing a boot drive requires a trip to the Apple Store to do whereas in other systems it's a simple matter of replacing the drive itself.

 

[Quu]

Not weird at all in that it is basically the internals of an SSD and not a whole SSD.

I'm aware that the SSD's they're using are just banks of NAND flash on removable cards and that the controller is actually in the T2 chip on the logic board.

Doesn't change the fact that the SSD cards are removable and not soldered and so Apple should make available a kit of them on their online store just like they sell the PCIe add-in cards for the Mac Pro. It's literally no different in that they are easily user serviceable if the parts were made available.

You can argue, they're not standard parts. Well neither is the Vega II MPX Duo card yet Apple sell that separately on their online store and it only works in the Mac Pro.

Radeon Pro Vega II Duo MPX Module

Upgrade or expand the graphics in your Mac Pro with the Radeon Pro Vega II Duo MPX Module. Featuring two AMD Radeon Pro Vega II graphics processors, each with up to 14.1 teraflops of compute performance, 32GB of memory and 1TB/s of memory bandwidth, the Radeon Pro Vega II Duo MPX Module is the...

www.apple.com

Standard boot drive SSD yes due to the security features of the T2 chip.

You are free to do as you wish with any other drive in the Mac Pro including making any other drive bootable if you don’t appreciate the security offered by T2.

Personally can’t think of any other sensible way of doing it.

Come on now. You can still have the security and make the SSD's user serviceable. I'm a software engineer and I have been responsible for platform security on network attached storage units. Designing the specific protections to lock expansion units to the same hardware vendor that produces the central unit.

It's really simple, when new SSD's are detected and setup by the T2 it stores a UUID on them which references a newly generated encryption key stored in the T2. This allows the user to go back and forth between their old modules and the new ones. It's really not hard and it's almost exactly what Apple is doing with their custom tool available only to their own techs.

And yes I'm aware you can install your own SSD internally using either the SATA ports or the PCIe slots. But the SATA ones would be much slower and the PCIe ones use up slots that may be valuable. It's nice having dedicated SSD expansion that doesn't take up space internally in my opinion.

And look yeah I'm griping about something that can't be changed but I'm more just answering what you guys are saying about this implementation not being weird or the best solution to maintain platform security. It is literally neither of those things.

 

[tsialex]

I'm aware that the SSD's they're using are just banks of NAND flash on removable cards and that the controller is actually in the T2 chip on the logic board.

Doesn't change the fact that the SSD cards are removable and not soldered and so Apple should make available a kit of them on their online store just like they sell the PCIe add-in cards for the Mac Pro. It's literally no different in that they are easily user serviceable if the parts were made available.

You can argue, they're not standard parts. Well neither is the Vega II MPX Duo card yet Apple sell that separately on their online store and it only works in the Mac Pro.

Radeon Pro Vega II Duo MPX Module

Upgrade or expand the graphics in your Mac Pro with the Radeon Pro Vega II Duo MPX Module. Featuring two AMD Radeon Pro Vega II graphics processors, each with up to 14.1 teraflops of compute performance, 32GB of memory and 1TB/s of memory bandwidth, the Radeon Pro Vega II Duo MPX Module is the...

www.apple.com

Come on now. You can still have the security and make the SSD's user serviceable. I'm a software engineer and I have been responsible for platform security on network attached storage units. Designing the specific protections to lock expansion units to the same hardware vendor that produces the central unit.

It's really simple, when new SSD's are detected and setup by the T2 it stores a UUID on them which references a newly generated encryption key stored in the T2. This allows the user to go back and forth between their old modules and the new ones. It's really not hard and it's almost exactly what Apple is doing with their custom tool available only to their own techs.

And yes I'm aware you can install your own SSD internally using either the SATA ports or the PCIe slots. But the SATA ones would be much slower and the PCIe ones use up slots that may be valuable. It's nice having dedicated SSD expansion that doesn't take up space internally in my opinion.

And look yeah I'm griping about something that can't be changed but I'm more just answering what you guys are saying about this implementation not being weird or the best solution to maintain platform security. It is literally neither of those things.

You are forgetting that the T2 storage stores the Mac BootROM too.

So, when you change the NAND modules you have to pair the modules to the T2 and restore the firmware, until that the iMac Pro or Mac Pro can’t initialize itself. It’s not exactly simply to do that, I watched an AASP tech doing that for an iMac Pro and it’s not the simplest operation that anyone can do.

Apple already documented publicly the firmware restore part of the process, but the pairing to the T2 is not documented for external use or have public available tool for that.

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

Sorry, am I missing something? I'm pretty sure you make an appointment with apple asking to upgrade to whatever size you want, they quote you some outrageous upgrade fee, you bring your machine in for them to do it. You might not have access to your machine for a day or more while they do it. They give you back your machine with upgraded modules.

Or are we saying, that once you get a set size, that is set in stone forever on the machine?

 

[tsialex]

Sorry, am I missing something? I'm pretty sure you make an appointment with apple asking to upgrade to whatever size you want, they quote you some outrageous upgrade fee, you bring your machine in for them to do it. You might not have access to your machine for a day or more while they do it. They give you back your machine with upgraded modules.

Yes.

Or are we saying, that once you get a set size, that is set in stone forever on the machine?

No.

 

[Quu]

You are forgetting that the T2 storage stores the Mac BootROM too.

So, when you change the NAND modules you have to pair the modules to the T2 and restore the firmware, until that the iMac Pro or Mac Pro can’t initialize itself. It’s not exactly simply to do that, I watched an AASP tech doing that for an iMac Pro and it’s not the simplest operation that anyone can do.

Apple already documented publicly the firmware restore part of the process, but the pairing to the T2 is not documented for external use or have public available tool for that.

Are you saying if you remove the two SSD's from a Mac Pro it wont boot up? Even with an internal SSD in a PCIe slot or an external over USB/Thunderbolt storage device? - I don't understand why Apple would keep the firmware on the internal storage cards, it's usually kept on the motherboard on a separate chip.

 

[tsialex]

Are you saying if you remove the two SSD's from a Mac Pro it wont boot up?

Yes, without the T2 storage, iMac Pro or Mac Pro won't even power up.

Even with an internal SSD in a PCIe slot or an external over USB/Thunderbolt storage device?

You can't power up, no firmware at all.

I don't understand why Apple would keep the firmware on the internal storage cards, it's usually kept on the motherboard on a separate chip.

This is not even an Apple idiosyncrasy, Intel implemented this some years ago and server vendors already used similar implementations of cryptographically signed and stored firmware before even Apple started with T2.

 

[defjam]

This is not even an Apple idiosyncrasy, Intel implemented this some years ago and server vendors already used similar implementations of cryptographically signed and stored firmware before even Apple started with T2.

Does this mean there are servers (or other workstations for that matter) for which an end user is unable to replace the boot drive?

 

[Quu]

Yes, without the T2 storage, iMac Pro or Mac Pro won't even power up.

This is actually quite ridiculous.

This is not even an Apple idiosyncrasy, Intel implemented this some years ago and server vendors already used similar implementations of cryptographically signed and stored firmware before even Apple started with T2.

Well actually this is very strange. I mean I've been involved in the industry for a long time and worked with Intel platforms including ones that use high levels of security, everything from their SoC's to the E7-XEON's and Itaniums.

We've never stored the firmware on the storage media that is used by the user like the SSD modules in the Mac Pro and iMac Pro would be. We always stored that stuff on either a removable key or a chip stored on the logic board.

Very very unusual to do it that way honestly.

Also just to clarify. I'm not saying cryptographically signed firmware is unusual. I'm saying storing and loading it from the user accessible storage is unusual.

 

[tsialex]

Does this mean there are servers (or other workstations for that matter) for which an end user is unable to replace the boot drive?

If you want to criticise Apple, you can use the angle that the T2 storage is used for the boot drive too, but the implementations of the way firmware are now stored are similar for high end workstations/servers.
[automerge]1578593689[/automerge]

This is actually quite ridiculous.



Well actually this is very strange. I mean I've been involved in the industry for a long time and worked with Intel platforms including ones that use high levels of security, everything from their SoC's to the E7-XEON's and Itaniums.

We've never stored the firmware on the storage media that is used by the user like the SSD modules in the Mac Pro and iMac Pro would be. We always stored that stuff on either a removable key or a chip stored on the logic board.

Very very unusual to do it that way honestly.

The first Mac that had this implementation was the 2017 iMac Pro, after that everything that has a T2 used the same implementation and only one current Mac don't use it, iMac 2019, the last Mac that have a SPI flash for the BootROM.

Also just to clarify. I'm not saying cryptographically signed firmware is unusual. I'm saying storing and loading it from the user accessible storage is unusual.

It's not user accessible at all, think the way iOS devices use the NAND storage, it's a very similar implementation.

 

[gazwas]

Making a mountain out of a mole hill here.

It’s a boot drive that will probably in the life of the machine never need replacing other than rare occasions like the OP where, paying Apple to upgrade is the only path available.

 

[konqerror]

Very very unusual to do it that way honestly.

Also just to clarify. I'm not saying cryptographically signed firmware is unusual. I'm saying storing and loading it from the user accessible storage is unusual.

Does this mean there are servers (or other workstations for that matter) for which an end user is unable to replace the boot drive?

There is a precedence on the "big" systems, like IBM mainframes, old Cray supercomputers, Sun Starfire, the firmware/"microcode" is stored as files on a separate PC or workstation. The Sun Starfire had to have the workstation load it up over JTAG to boot.

In this case, it's basically Apple reusing the iOS architecture and secure boot chain.

If you want to criticise Apple, you can use the angle that the T2 storage is used for the boot drive too, but the implementations of the way firmware are now stored are similar for high end workstations/servers.

This isn't how other high end workstation/servers do it. HP has a similar chip to the T2, called the endpoint security controller, and that uses on-board flash, not the boot drive. Corporate customers want to swap a failed boot drive themselves.

HP has the pieces (HP SureStart) fit in 8 MB, so I think it's an issue of Apple not being able to fit their whole iOS payload in a reasonable size, and not willing to rearchitect something that does.

 

[defjam]

If you want to criticise Apple, you can use the angle that the T2 storage is used for the boot drive too, but the implementations of the way firmware are now stored are similar for high end workstations/servers.

It's appears criticism is warranted not only for Apple but any vendor who creates a dependency on the boot drive to store the systems firmware.
[automerge]1578594485[/automerge]

Making a mountain out of a mole hill here.

I strongly disagree.

It’s a boot drive that will probably in the life of the machine never need replacing other than rare occasions like the OP where, paying Apple to upgrade is the only path available.

I didn't see anyone overly concerned about reliability but rather the inability to easily swap out the boot drive for a larger one.

 

[tsialex]

It's appears criticism is warranted not only for Apple but any vendor who creates a dependency on the boot drive to store the systems firmware.

Welcome to the new, but not really new, world focused on security. Someone here, forgot who sorry, listed sometime ago all the security implementations being used lately.

Maybe you don't know that every Intel processor that have ME have a MINIX implementation running inside even when it's powered off but connected to electricity?