Will LOGIC Replace PRO TOOLS?

[dLight]

So unless Apple come up with a very well integrated system (Apogee?)...

It's called Symphony. Unless you have to use a 3rd part mixer for Direct Monitoring, or use a slow Mac, it's as integrated as it gets.

Some features that one of those apps is obviously missing in the other, eg. Logic lacks proper delay compensation when used with external effects - and still doesn't have any equivalent to Beat Detective / Elastic Time.

...and re-do their user interface in Logic to resemble a more analog feel

That's Logic 8, isn't it?

as intern, the software they'll have to learn will be Pro Tools 95% of the time anyway

That's true. On the other hand, are there any studios at all that doesn't also have Logic installed nowadays?

 

[MowingDevil]

The studio we recorded our album in is fairly high end, it has a history with Metallica, Aerosmith, Motley Crue, The Cult and bands like that....and is the studio Nickelback recorded their Silver Side Up album in. They've now pretty much moved to Logic throughout although they're still running it through a full on ProTools system and I'm sure if the engineer wanted they could use the PT software.

I've nothing against PT, I love the software myself...but Logic has really taken a step forward. I recently had a decision to make for my home studio & opted for Logic 8 Sudio. For the money that package just can't be beat. Steinberg & Digidesign must have had kittens when it was released.

 

[WinterMute]

Most large studios (or small ones with big ideas) who have invested in Protools HD have a significant amount of money invested in the rig, running Logic on top of that hardware simply makes financial sense.

No point in letting perfectly acceptable hardware collect dust when you simply have to replace it to run Logic at decent audio quality levels.

Newer rooms that are logic based will not use HD hardware, and Digi really have to get their act together in order to sustain their market place.

I was speaking to people from Focusrite last month, and we discussed this very subject at some length, they are of the opinion that Digi will have to release a de-hardwared version of not only LE but HD too, and then they will be hampered by Apple's incredibe level of integration.

PT is going to have to change, and soon.

It is still, however, a better interface for multitracking and editing in my opinion, but I'd like to see them try to compete with Apple in the functionality stakes, give LE 5.1 outputs ferchristsakes!!

 

[MowingDevil]

Newer rooms that are logic based will not use HD hardware, and Digi really have to get their act together in order to sustain their market place.

What will they use instead?

I can see the large studios still going w/ fullblown ProTools rigs even if they have no intention on using the software. Those rigs can carry a big load when recording and playing back large numbers of tracks. Just wondering what you think would be a better solution for a newer studio?

 

[junior]

What will they use instead?

I can see the large studios still going w/ fullblown ProTools rigs even if they have no intention on using the software. Those rigs can carry a big load when recording and playing back large numbers of tracks. Just wondering what you think would be a better solution for a newer studio?

Pro Tools is the only software that can fully utilize the DSP with its proprietary hardware when it comes to input and output. Unless things have changed, I'm pretty sure that when Logic or DP use the TDM mode, only 8 I/O can be used, unless something's changed. Could someone correct me if I'm wrong?

dLight, although L8's user interface has been greatly simplified, it still doesn't quite match the simple analogue-style interface of Pro Tools, in my opinion anyway.
When I said 'integrated' I didn't really explain myself too well. I was thinking about adc implementation as good as Digidesign's software and interface for studios that use a lot of outboard gear, and the overdub sessions with hardware plus tons of plugins inserted (perhaps you said earlier that this was actually pretty good in Logic now?).
Once Apple and Logic sort this out, I can see Digidesign in a lot of trouble.

 

[dLight]

Pro Tools is the only software that can fully utilize the DSP with its proprietary hardware when it comes to input and output. Unless things have changed, I'm pretty sure that when Logic or DP use the TDM mode, only 8 I/O can be used, unless something's changed. Could someone correct me if I'm wrong?

I can: you are wrong!

I've used Logic with TDM hardware for many years, and I had access to all the inputs and outputs in the system. The limitation is if you use Digidesign's CoreAudio drivers to access the 192 interface; unlike other CoreAudio drivers from other manufacturers like RME or Apogeee, Digi hasn't implemented support for all the physical I/Os in their drivers. They have also limited the max number of tracks in their LE systems, and put a limit on how low buffer setting you can use with their native systems. Hence, they have often been criticized for ' rippling' their native solutions.

Those rigs can carry a big load when recording and playing back large numbers of tracks.

They can, if you have enough DSP cards, and you can also combine 'native' and DSP 'tracks'. However, I don't think track count or 'big loads' is much of an issue anymore. 100-150 stereo tracks and 1000-2000 plugins is more than enough for pretty much everyone.

No point in letting perfectly acceptable hardware collect dust when you simply have to replace it to run Logic at decent audio quality levels.

Maybe not, but more and more people who start to explore the enhanced power of fast computers are letting their TDM hardware 'collecting dust'.


I don't think the reason is the things non-TDM systems technically can't do that native systems can (offline bouncing, dynamic DSP allocation etc), but that many current studios are built from the ground by people who started with Logic - they aren't 'old school' engineers. Many of them are songwriters/producers who happen to want to run their own studio instead of renting one.

When I get phone calls from frustrated PT engineers who have to use Logic (in a studio that are producing their material in a combined Logic/TDM environment), it isn't because these studios are run by PT-bashers; they simply bought TDM hardware at some point because they had too (native wasn't good enough), and now they don't have to anymore. Like most DAW users, they happened to start with a non-TDM system, added TDM at some point, and in a lot of cases, don't need TDM anymore.

I have probably been wrong in my criticism about Logic reducing their prices - I thought they did it to increase their market share, and imagined that a lower price would generate less cash that could put into R&D. But - maybe they just did it because the initial developing costs had been covered a long time ago - or to generate more money. Unlike a few years ago, everybody has Logic now, including people who have bought only to check it out, and sometimes lower prices means more profit.

 

[WinterMute]

Maybe not, but more and more people who start to explore the enhanced power of fast computers are letting their TDM hardware 'collecting dust'.

It's just laziness in a lot of cases, that and the fact that a good TDM hardware rig provides a lot of I/O, and it simply means you have to replace the physical systems otherwise, which is money and time.

The newer studios that were founded on Logic tend to be more in the line of writers studios, certainly the 3 or 4 I've been in don't offer the kind of facilities I would need to use them as tracking and mixing rooms. Whereas those that were HD based initially are much more flexible in tracking terms.

Increased market share and lower prices simply put more powerful kit in the hands of people who have little idea what to do with it, and no reason to learn.... "old school" engineering is still correct, even if you only have 1 mic and a pre into Logic, and the quality of what is accepted as current "pro" recordings has never been lower.

Technological advance is not a good thing for music, sure it put tools in the hands of many more people, but look what they are doing with them. Logic and garageband make it too easy to create the simulacrum of a song, but essentially it's the same as everyone else's song, the need for talent, application, practice and tenacity is still there.

Meh, I think I need tea and biscuits...

 

[MowingDevil]

Technological advance is not a good thing for music, sure it put tools in the hands of many more people, but look what they are doing with them. Logic and garageband make it too easy to create the simulacrum of a song, but essentially it's the same as everyone else's song, the need for talent, application, practice and tenacity is still there.

Couldn't have said it better myself - cheeers!
For my take on this, check out my rant in this thread:
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/548625/

 

[Per Lichtman]

Increased market share and lower prices simply put more powerful kit in the hands of people who have little idea what to do with it, and no reason to learn.... "old school" engineering is still correct, even if you only have 1 mic and a pre into Logic, and the quality of what is accepted as current "pro" recordings has never been lower.

Technological advance is not a good thing for music, sure it put tools in the hands of many more people, but look what they are doing with them. Logic and garageband make it too easy to create the simulacrum of a song, but essentially it's the same as everyone else's song, the need for talent, application, practice and tenacity is still there.

Meh, I think I need tea and biscuits...

While there have been some low quality recordings coming out of this and there may be a lot of highly successful commercial mixes that are not well produced, I'd be hard pressed to say to agree with you overall. That's partially because of what I see each day in my work.

I spend half my week working on PCs, half my week on Macs and have to have a relative fluency with a minimum of 3 software hosts in a week. I grew up with the opportunity to learn and experiment with audio at a young age because of the democratization of music technology. That did not prevent me from appreciating that I would learn more in a short time from interning with an experienced composer and engineer than I would in years on my own and I can't thank Rob Woo enough for his mentoring during my summers at college. During my brief chances to speak with George Massenburg and to Mitch Marcoulier (one of the original Synclavier engineers) about music technology I was a very happy sponge, and the same could be said of my seminars with composers such as John Adams.

My primary current projects give me a chance to collaborate with artists ranging in background from internationally renowned Juliard grads to singer-songwriters with a background in touring and with film experience on to other musicians they bring onto the project that I may never even meet in person because we collaborate internationally via the Internet. My projects range from open ended personal projects to a deadline sensitive demo for a major label. In all cases, the projects have been done in project studios rather than higher end facilities but the equipment used has been of a high quality (e.g. Avalon 737s, UA6176, Neumann TLM 103s, U87, KM 184 D, Telefunken Elam 251 E, Royer R-122V, etc.)

I have taken the time to not only learn the differences in the optimal use for the various equipment on site for my own edification but have helped the artists to gain a better sense of why a given sound will come out the way they like and how they can vary the signal chain to achieve a certain effect in a way that will help them to get the sound they want whether they work with me or anybody else in the future. I've spent a lot of time helping my other friends, including classically trained musicians from college, to learn how to translate their creativity into recordings and they have demonstrated to me time and again that with a little education they can, and will, take their creativity and capitalize on even the most basic of tools to create things that had been very difficult for them to do without a computer.

Would I have been able to get into the position I am in right now if it hadn't been for access to low cost software, such as "Logic Fun/Micrologic" at young age? It would have been a lot harder to hit the ground running. Did I think that I knew more than I actually did at various points when I was first starting out? Of course: I think that was true for most of us, right?

The time that people spent assisting me and that I've spent assisting others has resulted in the creation of beautiful music that wouldn't have been economically feasible prior to the democratization of low priced music technology. It's not the availability of tools that is creating poor music, but simply the fact that many of the people using them have never had a chance to (or need to) develop the sort of ears or skills to create solid productions that may once have been more difficult to avoid. At the same time, it has empowered people to take chances and explore their creativity in a way that they didn't have the luxury to before. I feel like it's a fair trade-off.

Good music hasn't gone away. Sometimes we just have to look a little harder to find it than we would have liked to.

 

[WinterMute]

Welcome aboard to begin with.

For everyone like yourself, the advent of low cost, powerful music software is a great boon, and there are always going to be those who benefit from the advances, and we in turn benefit from their creative efforts.

However, the quality of composition and production on released tracks has plummeted since the release of the looping technology in Garageband and Logic (and others), as the musically talentless get to pour their undiluted widdlings into the public ear.

I'm not for one minute suggesting it's a global issue, and there is some truly great music to be had from the unschooled producer, it's just that the signal to noise ratio is climbing in favour of the noise, and it's much harder to find the good stuff.

I see 3 or 400 applicants a year for the degree courses at the Uni, the majority have some decent background in recording, programming or production, but a good 20% think that a few tracks in Fruityloops is going to win them a Grammy....

For every Goldy or Beck there are a million no-hopers who can now inflict their inane productions on us because of this software, and I for one don't have the patience or the self-control to be nice about another generic 5 minute garageband loop-out...!

There will always be those who stretch the limits of music and production, and some of them will not be "trained" in either. This is a Good Thing...

 

[Per Lichtman]

I think that for me the most frustrating thing about the emphasis on loop based compositions is when it stops people from taking a chance on writing their own notes. You probably have a lot more experience with that than I do given your position, but as for myself the main thing I've tried to do is to show them the real benefits of going beyond that and how much more personal it can get.

As far as the signal to noise ratio, there's a lot of music out there that doesn't engage me personally unless I am listening to try and give constructive feedback, so I can understand. I just think that the difference is less the quality of the music they are making and more, as you said, the frequency with which we are exposed to the work of that quality. But I can just easily avoid listening to most of it as I can avoid turning on my radio, so it doesn't tend to bother me most of the time.

One of the things that has been encouraging me a lot recently is the fact that so many people have noticed the difference between MySpace re-compressed files (with their arbitrary high frequency cutoff ca. 11 or 12 khz) vs. single compressed 128 kbps MP3s from SoundClick, not to mention the recent outcry over Metallica's poor production on their newest album. People may not be demanding audiophile mixes, but it does seem like they may finally starting to say that the standards have gotten to low, even for mass consumption.

We shall see how it all turns out, and thanks for the welcome!

Oh, and out of curiousity, what part of London are you in? I grew up spending two weeks a month just a few blocks away from Kennsington Garden (and being bratty at Harod's) for the first few years of my life, so I have fond memories.

 

[WinterMute]

I teach in Ealing, West London, but I live is South East London, near Greenwich.

 

[TommyLee]

Does anybody have the exact market share numbers?

 

[TommyLee]

What kind of 'studio' do you run?
Because I've NEVER had anyone call me and ask for Logic, apart from times when making changes during a session to their arrangements are necessary. They'd usually bring in their laptop anyway.

A bedroom studio. Which, might I ad- is the future. So while Justin Timbaland won't walk into my studio anytime soon, in the future there won't be commercial studios. Only production companies with recording gear.

 

[zimv20]

in the future there won't be commercial studios.

yes there will be. you can't do *everything* on location or in someone's basement/garage/spare-bedroom.

i suppose we could also discuss what "commercial" means. if you charge someone to record in your bedroom studio, is that commercial?

 

[dLight]

It's really new to me that all these people made all their recordings in their bedrooms....:

http://logicprohelp.com/vip_users.php

 

[junior]

A bedroom studio. Which, might I ad- is the future. So while Justin Timbaland won't walk into my studio anytime soon, in the future there won't be commercial studios. Only production companies with recording gear.

You sound awfully sure for a guy who's only real experience is in his own bedroom.
I think I'll stick to mine and my clients' judgement and keep hold of my 'commercial studio' for now.

 

[junior]

It's really new to me that all these people made all their recordings in their bedrooms....:

http://logicprohelp.com/vip_users.php

Come on now dLight. These guys are credited for making music with logic. Not recording or mastering.
I'd hazard a guess to say that their 'bedrooms', or their production space, is worth more money than a lot of full-blown studios.

Although I'm sure it was a light hearted comment from you in the first place.

 

[UgLy KoeRner]

I just recently recorded in a professional studio and we were mainly useing pro tools, however he was bouncing back and fourth between pro tools and Logic, I was not sure why but it seemed maybe to use some of the effects, or some traxXx were easier to effect with in logic.

My personal opinion is that Pro tools is the ShXt because U mention it to a musician they get alittle bit more wet.

But I guess in the end for a true artist maybe one program aint enough, I dont want to clutter my comp with a million programs but who knows.

http://www.myspace.com/Sosicksocialclub

 

[Dejoblue]

Sorry for the thread necro.

I was wondering where people stand on this a year later.

This was my thinking:

Basically Logic is taking Pro Tools business model and making their software virtually free, while maintaining the huge interface interoperability. This puts them in the same venue of selling hardware, just like Pro Tools requires, only NOW the hardware is a Mac computer rather than I/O boxes.

Logic has also lowered its price point, by HALF!, for legitimate users, which was already vastly less expensive than Pro Tools, and with no dongle now a lot more people will be bringing in their own starting mixes or demos made on Logic simply because they can download Logic with torrents and get codes etc. The appeal, legitimate user or not, is that Logic supports a huge array of interfaces, there are even some new apogee ones designed with Logic in mind, that Pro Tools makes a pain to use going through their own interfaces which are extremely expensive and useless especially if you DO get an "industry standard" apogee converter.

Most clients and small studios don't have the thousands of dollars to get a basic Pro Tools rig. So, starting with Logic and a decent I/O like MOTU 2408 or 828 is a no brainer. It lets you build your rig over time without a huge initial investment. And at 500 bucks I think most Pro Tools Studios will have Logic now anyways especially considering that they can use their Pro Tools hardware with Logic.

That's what my thought process was. What is the feeling now from everyone? I am of course wanting to justify using what I have chosen and what I have consulted others to use.

Thanks for your time

 

[junior]

Sorry for the thread necro.

I was wondering where people stand on this a year later.

This was my thinking:

Basically Logic is taking Pro Tools business model and making their software virtually free, while maintaining the huge interface interoperability. This puts them in the same venue of selling hardware, just like Pro Tools requires, only NOW the hardware is a Mac computer rather than I/O boxes.

Logic has also lowered its price point, by HALF!, for legitimate users, which was already vastly less expensive than Pro Tools, and with no dongle now a lot more people will be bringing in their own starting mixes or demos made on Logic simply because they can download Logic with torrents and get codes etc. The appeal, legitimate user or not, is that Logic supports a huge array of interfaces, there are even some new apogee ones designed with Logic in mind, that Pro Tools makes a pain to use going through their own interfaces which are extremely expensive and useless especially if you DO get an "industry standard" apogee converter.

Most clients and small studios don't have the thousands of dollars to get a basic Pro Tools rig. So, starting with Logic and a decent I/O like MOTU 2408 or 828 is a no brainer. It lets you build your rig over time without a huge initial investment. And at 500 bucks I think most Pro Tools Studios will have Logic now anyways especially considering that they can use their Pro Tools hardware with Logic.

That's what my thought process was. What is the feeling now from everyone? I am of course wanting to justify using what I have chosen and what I have consulted others to use.

Thanks for your time

I don't think anything's changed. Opinion's still split amongst people.
I have Pro Tools HD and Logic. I like them both but for critical recording, editing and/or mixing in front of clients I still can't feel comfortable with Logic. I can't start announcing that my studio is Logic only either because no engineer, management, record company will bother renting the place out. It's a tough one. I still think that for the majority of users, Logic will continue to dominate the composition/arrangement market while studios will continue with Digidesign for the foreseeable future (there's been no sign to suggest otherwise).


Another thought...
Apple's a scary company in a sense. They drop technology or development whenever they feel like it, it seems. Sometimes it's for the sake of embracing something better (Floppy<USB), sometimes for no apparent reason (FW400<nothing).
That's specifically hardware, yes, but what about Filemaker? They bought the company, made one release (I think) and then dropped it.

There have only been 3 point updates for Logic 8 I think since its release, while their other pro apps have had numerous updates within the same time frame. Did they fix every single bug imaginable in the .0.3 update? Certainly not.
Have they lost interest in the pro audio field? Is that why they decided that dropping firewire for the macbooks, which I'd imagine a big percentage of customers who use the DUET (there's supposed to be a partnership with Apogee) had been buying, was no big deal?

I'm probably totally off on this. But the one thing that I don't have to worry about is Digidesign ever loosing interest in my field of profession, since that is the only field in which they can earn their bread.

We should open this thread in 10 years time. It'll be fun.

 

[zimv20]

We should open this thread in 10 years time. It'll be fun.

my bets are on "ProTools 15 vs Apple HomeStudio Pro 5".

 

[junior]

my bets are on "ProTools 15 vs Apple HomeStudio Pro 5".

Nice bit of irony with Apple's product title

 

[dLight]

Come on now dLight. These guys are credited for making music with logic. Not recording or mastering.
I'd hazard a guess to say that their 'bedrooms', or their production space, is worth more money than a lot of full-blown studios.

I don't think anyone have insisted that Logic based studios are "worth more money than a lot of full-blown studios", and I'm not going to follow up on the bedroom/basement/garage thing, I know of several full blown studios that are Logic based, and will leave it at that.

I was wondering where people stand on this a year later.

I think the main change over the last 12 months is that Digidesign has released Pro Tools 8, which seems like a very 'Logic inspired' release, while Apple haven't released Logic 8.* or Logic 9 (and probably won't until Snow Leopard with OpenCL etc. is out?).

Some people who stayed with Logic for it's score editor and included synth/sound libraries mave moved over to PT, and some people who used PT for low latency and because they needed the DSP cards have moved over to Logic.

I can't start announcing that my studio is Logic only either because no engineer, management, record company will bother renting the place out.

The tendency around here seem to be that since so many projects now start out in Logic, artists/labels who want to rent a studio for finishing an album want a Logic compatible studio. This may of course change if more people start to use PTLE and a new version of Logic which competes with DP/Cubase/PT/Live features 'everybody' want (elastic time) never will be released.

Apple's a scary company in a sense. They drop technology or development whenever they feel like it, it seems. Sometimes it's for the sake of embracing something better (Floppy<USB), sometimes for no apparent reason (FW400<nothing).

Too bad they removed FW from that Mac Book - it has USB 2.0, which at least for parts of the video camera market has replaced FW.

That's specifically hardware, yes, but what about Filemaker? They bought the company, made one release (I think) and then dropped it.

FileMaker begun as "NutShell" in the early 80s. Apple formed Claris (now FileMaker Inc.) and purchased the NutShell developers (Nashoba), and - looking at the last 10 years - have released new versions in 1999 (5.0), 2001 (5.5) , 2002 (6.0), 2004 (7.0), 2005 (8.0), 2006 (8.5), 2007 (9.0). FileMaker 10 is due on Monday.

But the one thing that I don't have to worry about is Digidesign ever loosing interest in my field of profession, since that is the only field in which they can earn their bread.

Like everyone else, Digidesign has to look at where the money is, which is probably why they aren't any longer a company that exclusively manufactures chips from drum machines. From a user's perspective, the good thing about Digi is that that aren't any longer in the safe position they used to be. Lot's of people (like myself) had to use TDM systems for low latency and enough DSP, and now they have to compete with functions and features normally only found in native DAWs in order to not lose too much money. I spoke with a dealer not long ago, and he had sold 10 times as many Logic packages as PT packages that month. PTHD sales are diminishing rather dramatically (world wide, according to his sources), so releasing PT8 at the end of 2008 was a smart move, because now, all the PT users that claimed that they didn't like Logic 8's user interface much loves the same kind of user interface when it's implemented in PT8, and are happy to pay for it...

Looking at Apple's general upgrade policy, we'll probably see a major Logic upgrade in 2009, since Logic 8 was released in 2007, and maybe even a bugfix version before that.

Did they fix every single bug imaginable in the .0.3 update? Certainly not.

1) Check your version numbers... ;-) There's no such thing as Logic 8.03
2) When did any company release a version which fixed every single bug imaginable?
3) Yes, I want a new Logic version too.

 

[junior]

The tendency around here seem to be that since so many projects now start out in Logic, artists/labels who want to rent a studio for finishing an album want a Logic compatible studio.

I wish that was how it is around here, but the tendency is that clients (the ones that want to rent the room out with their own engineers) will often ask me first whether I have Pro Tools or not and then feel reassured once I confirm. If I were to say no, they'd instantly look down at the studio as second rate. I wish it were different, especially as I've only got HD2 and a ton of sessions come in 96k and a ton of tracks, but it's just a trend that won't seem to go away at the moment.

Too bad they removed FW from that Mac Book - it has USB 2.0, which at least for parts of the video camera market has replaced FW.

I don't think it'll ever be a replacement in the audio field though...

Like everyone else, Digidesign has to look at where the money is, which is probably why they aren't any longer a company that exclusively manufactures chips from drum machines. From a user's perspective, the good thing about Digi is that that aren't any longer in the safe position they used to be. Lot's of people (like myself) had to use TDM systems for low latency and enough DSP, and now they have to compete with functions and features normally only found in native DAWs in order to not lose too much money. I spoke with a dealer not long ago, and he had sold 10 times as many Logic packages as PT packages that month. PTHD sales are diminishing rather dramatically (world wide, according to his sources), so releasing PT8 at the end of 2008 was a smart move, because now, all the PT users that claimed that they didn't like Logic 8's user interface much loves the same kind of user interface when it's implemented in PT8, and are happy to pay for it...

I'm in agreement with some of your earlier points here. They need to work like they've never worked before to keep the high & low end customers, as well as the need to pull in the other DAW users to PT in order to survive. Who knows, if they get enough things right they may even get you back on board

Regarding sales, I'm not going to speculate on Digidesign's worldwide sales figure based on the words of one dealer.

User interface. It's got the looks of Logic but the user interface itself is still very much Pro Tools, which is what users like myself prefer over other DAWs.

Looking at Apple's general upgrade policy, we'll probably see a major Logic upgrade in 2009, since Logic 8 was released in 2007, and maybe even a bugfix version before that.

Hopefully!

1) Check your version numbers... ;-) There's no such thing as Logic 8.03

Ha. You're right. So am I right in saying there's only been 2 updates since the release of Logic 8 in 2007?

2) When did any company release a version which fixed every single bug imaginable?

As you're already aware I'm sure, that was not the point. Digidesign have always released constant patches through both their internal research as well as user reports. This has especially been the case over the last 3 or 4 years.

3) Yes, I want a new Logic version too.

If they are working on it, I'm sure it'll be great. Hopefully both companies will continue to push each other for the foreseeable future.