Will there ever be a convertible MBP with pen?

[consumeritis]

Hi guys,

So, my MacBook Pro has been the best laptop I have ever owned. Before it, my MacBook Air was in its day also the best laptop I have ever owned. I have had great experiences with Apple support - twice I have had display replacements literally over Christmas, done in three days, all covered under warranty, just dropped in the store no faff with shipping. So Apple have built up a lot of trust from me in the quality of their hardware and their support.

But the time to upgrade my main machine is coming around again and I find myself increasingly tempted to switch to Surface. The Surface Laptop looks gorgeous with its colour options and its 3:2 display. And I'm hoping that later this year we'll get an updated Surface Book with 4-core processors and a 10-series GPU in the base.

The major advantage today's Windows machines have over OSX is the option of pen support. The Touch Bar seems to me to be a a slightly strange thing to push instead of just adding a touchscreen/pen, especially considering Apple's expertise with touch from their tablets and phones.

This time around I really want a machine I can run a development environment on that I can also use with a pen to draw diagrams or make proper art with. That's just not available from Apple - currently my options are a Windows 2-in-1 or Surface. Having a tablet mirroring my screen or plugging in a pen display just seems unwieldy in comparison.

Unfortunately for me it seems from recent reports that Surface is just not up to the quality standards you'd expect from a supposedly premium device.

What do you think? I know it's unlikely I'll get an Apple-made Surface competitor any time soon but I really think Microsoft have been doing a lot of things right with their designs recently.

 

[Closingracer]

They cater to 2 different demographics. Yeah sure they do compete in some areas but the surface book and MacOS itself go after 2 different markets. In short we never will get a screen that is compatible with pen support.

 

[Queen6]

They cater to 2 different demographics. Yeah sure they do compete in some areas but the surface book and MacOS itself go after 2 different markets. In short we never will get a screen that is compatible with pen support.

This is very true, and what I replaced my 13" MBP with a Surface Book which has proved to be an excellent notebook. Apple has clearly no interest in developing a touch and enabled Mac, hence why I moved on for my professional needs...

Q-6

 

[SteveJUAE]

I agree the SB and the SP4 are due a spec upgrade to latest CPU and graphics.

I would not put to much worth on CR reliability prediction, as that's what it is based on a some feed back from a relatively small sample group based on data 2 years old. EG The latest MBP reliability would be based on the previous generation and it will be another 2 years for CR to tell you if the current ones are reliable

Whilst Apple support is very good you seem to miss the point of reliability after having two screen failures yourself, you did not note if it was under AC but if so, don't forget you paid for that, but I'm glad you got good service but not necessarily reliability of hardware

I simply view the surface range as perfectly good laptops that are equally good as clamshells with benefits you can take advantage of or simply ignore. Your more likely to use touch and pen even if it's only 10 or 15% of the time than ever plug in 4 monitors or a DGU on a MBP these sort of features are more bragging rights that actually useful to most, other than a tiny group of professional as noted by Apple themselves (ie professional using pro apps regularly is less than 15% of owners)

Similarly quad core or more software is a very small bunch of applications and probably the most common MS Excel is only single core on MAC's, but it is nice to have high specs even if not used

MBP have never been a more average non professional board range of appeal yet total ignore touch, other than buying secondary devices to supplement this shortfall which is a shame let alone poor support for casual gaming

If you can happily adjust to some slightly different ergonomics at times then the Surface range has far more to offer both now and in the future IMO but the MBP remains a high price quality clamshell laptop in it's own right

 

[New_Mac_Smell]

Highly unlikely Apple would release a 2-1 touch laptop, it's just not in that kind of market. What you're talking about is fantastic for hobbyist/casual users, but any pro would use a separate tablet for accuracy/use. There's a reason Cintiq HD's cost as much as a Surface... So in order to make a MBP that fitted the 'Pro' market in that sense, you'd be looking at a $5000 price tag, alternatively grab a $2500 laptop and use your current tablet with it (As professionals do).

What MicroSoft have done is make a good computer with a lot of the specs a lot of people want, but it isn't necessarily good enough for the people who buy MBPs, and would require separate expensive accessories to bring it in line. Which is what generally makes the MBP a purchase. If however you don't need the best of the best, you can get a good deal with other computers.

Now the Surface and other MicroSoft computers are fantastic, and if it meets all your needs then buy one. There's no reason to stick with using Apple through loyalty, and don't hold your breath that Apple would release what you want. If what you want exists, then grab it!

 

[Fishrrman]

The question:
"Will there ever be a convertible MBP with pen?"

I'd reckon, no -- there probably never will be one.

Next question...?

 

[leman]

I surely hope not. IMO, the Surface Book makes too many sacrifices in order to achieve its convertible function. Its almost as large as the 15" MBP (in fact, its volume is about 20% larger then the 15" MBP), only offers dual-core CPUs and the battery in tablet mode is rather weak. All Surface computers lack pro-level external connectivity. Personally, I find the Surface computers very confusing. People seem to like them, but for me, these machines are configured and priced in a very weird way. On one side, they seem to be a general-purpose multimedia student machine (but they are generally too expensive for that), on the other side they seem to cater to professionals who need flexibility in the field (but the tablet battery is too weak for that), and then they also seem to be designed as a weird take on a gaming laptop (pairing a relatively fast GPU with a low-tier CPU).

Also, about the pricing. The Book with Performance Base in 512GB config costs as much as the 15" MBP with 512GB/Pro 560, despite using cheaper and slower components.

 

[SteveJUAE]

It certainly seems a bit of a mess with MBP given that the latest gen is clearly aimed and such a minority set of pro users centered around a handful of specific software, a few developers and an even tiny group of admins or musicians. Sure this is great for a tiny group of a tiny group but it's clear Apple don't really support them further, they barely give you any in-house solutions starting from cables upwards

I find it strange to buy a 2K laptop and then suggest it's pro connectivity is good for an average user given you would need in excess of 3K worth of TB3 desktop accessories to a device that's made thin and light for portability . Apple have always been clever in marketing by offering little unique advantages that IRL for the majority are never used

It's even stranger given that the most common owner probably wants or uses a MBP for visual arts or cine/photography and may of already stretched their budget for such a premium device then has to fork out $100's more to get pen and touch input let alone enhanced graphics costing even more with the poorest choice of programs that could even use them natively

It's a given fact that the biggest choice of Pro software is in the Windows world and Apple only excels in a small minority which is often based on cost (excluding developers and there like who have no alternative).

There are many good reasons to own a MBP but for the average and majority user thinking your buying a pro laptop is not one of them as you need to be in such a unique position to take full advantage of the Pro aspects, hence my comment on bragging rights over real use

Whilst I agree the Surface line is in need of a spec upgrade (as I noted before) and is still evolving. Touch interface is all around us from Malls, airports, queuing systems in shops etc let alone on our phones. To ignore it even in silly price comparisons is not being realistic let alone how you simply adapt to multi input when the option is there.

Enjoy your Mac but I think more would of been happy with a box standard SD slot or a USB-A port over all this so called pro connectivity

MS are making big strides forward in touch and speech recognition why Apple is ignoring touch in particular in MacOS is strange and I'm sure they could add there own unique spin to this. Perhaps its indicative of their commitment to IOS platform to the detriment of Mac's, who knows

 

[New_Mac_Smell]

Quite honestly, I think a lot of people may 'Want' touch input, however very few people would actually use it past the first few days of playing. It's not really a usable technology to have a touch screen laptop, there is not enough rigidity in the display and it's super uncomfortable to use. Which means you need to fold it back and use it without keyboard/mouse, which means you cannot use any shortcuts unless you plug in an external keyboard mouse, which kind of negates the whole point.

That's why professional users are happier to have a separate device for touch input. Casual users are the ones that want this, but it just is never a practical thing with a desktop OS, and it's not going to be for a long time. Regardless of what people say, functionally a tablet/phone are different from a PC, and attempting to combine them together always leads to sacrifices in functionality. You can a difficult to use PC or an oversized tablet...

Obviously a lot of people do buy Macs just because they are cool, but they should know what they're buying. You don't buy a Ferrari then take it down Kwikfit for some cheap tyres. And yes on the Windows front there is a lot of work in this whole area, which is great and people who want it should go and buy it; stop holding off on something just because you really want an Apple.

 

[Bending Pixels]

You have to ask yourself -"self - how many people actually USE the tablet feature or touch screen capabilities" of the convertible/2 in 1's? The real answer - not many.

 

[robvas]

iPad Pro...

 

[maflynn]

unlikely I'll get an Apple-made Surface competitor any time soon

Apple already has a Surface Competitor and its the iPad Pro. They're not about to add a feature that will completely confuse and mess up their existing product line.

 

[SteveJUAE]

You have to ask yourself -"self - how many people actually USE the tablet feature or touch screen capabilities" of the convertible/2 in 1's? The real answer - not many.

I understand where your coming from and agree to a point that touch is no way a 100% replacement interface yet you will be surprised how it slowly creeps in to your normal working practices that you only realize when you use a non touch laptop

Like there is a right time for short cuts, or trackpad or mouse it also applies to touch, personally I find I use it most when accessing the action center pane and I only use a pen for annotating some documents or fine detail on editing some photos occasionally, as it is a superior method at times

Quite honestly, I think a lot of people may 'Want' touch input, however very few people would actually use it past the first few days of playing. It's not really a usable technology to have a touch screen laptop, there is not enough rigidity in the display and it's super uncomfortable to use. Which means you need to fold it back and use it without keyboard/mouse, which means you cannot use any shortcuts unless you plug in an external keyboard mouse, which kind of negates the whole point.

That's why professional users are happier to have a separate device for touch input. Casual users are the ones that want this, but it just is never a practical thing with a desktop OS, and it's not going to be for a long time. Regardless of what people say, functionally a tablet/phone are different from a PC, and attempting to combine them together always leads to sacrifices in functionality. You can a difficult to use PC or an oversized tablet...

Obviously a lot of people do buy Macs just because they are cool, but they should know what they're buying. You don't buy a Ferrari then take it down Kwikfit for some cheap tyres. And yes on the Windows front there is a lot of work in this whole area, which is great and people who want it should go and buy it; stop holding off on something just because you really want an Apple.

My son uses the pen far more than me when in tent mode for his general entertainment which has no stability issues, also with the SP4 with kickstand there is no screen wobble and the KB is attached, so no issues that you note, but maybe with some others

Additional unlike the touchbar, with touch screen functionality and user interface is enhanced as eg the point of focus is literally at you finger/pen tip and not elsewhere

As you have noted a pen interface is Pro choice in some applications, given that MBP are 85% or more for armatures who want touch (as you note), be it for casual use or otherwise then surely forcing MBP biggest user group to opt for expensive addons or an IPP is questionable

W10 is identical whether you have a touch screen or not, but with a touch enabled device you have more options natively

I don't think touch on a PC/laptop is likely to be a complete solution but with new devices and interfaces that have and will evolve its potential is high

 

[Bending Pixels]

Take a listen to yesterday's episode of The Grid. Scott and Matt specifically address the question of why photographers and creatives choose a Mac over PC. They even address the issue regarding a touch screen.

 

[SteveJUAE]

Take a listen to yesterday's episode of The Grid. Scott and Matt specifically address the question of why photographers and creatives choose a Mac over PC. They even address the issue regarding a touch screen.

Thanks for that as it simply confirmed what many have been saying for years there is no technical/performance reason for buying a MBP for photographers it's purely a perception, aesthetics and appeal, plus a bit of legacy for good measure

Apple produce very nice looking laptops that are well built and for some time had almost a monopoly in this price bracket, now some OEM,s are also competing in this market and it remains to be seen if things change with comparable build quality etc

I thought it was interesting how they were equally disappointed with Apple development or lack of in it's own software

My perception is MS in particular are doing more for creatives in both hardware and software whether this is enough to persuade long term MAC Pro Photographers users to switch is wait and see otherwise the average user even with lesser premium devices will still see the benefits as they are passed down from premium W10 devices

With MS producing Halo products like the Surface studio and innovations like the dial and better pens and constant improvements with 2 in 1's and touch they seem to be moving forward where Apple is all about refinement and thinner and lighter based on same format with occasional spec bumps

 

[New_Mac_Smell]

I understand where your coming from and agree to a point that touch is no way a 100% replacement interface yet you will be surprised how it slowly creeps in to your normal working practices that you only realize when you use a non touch laptop

Like there is a right time for short cuts, or trackpad or mouse it also applies to touch, personally I find I use it most when accessing the action center pane and I only use a pen for annotating some documents or fine detail on editing some photos occasionally, as it is a superior method at times



My son uses the pen far more than me when in tent mode for his general entertainment which has no stability issues, also with the SP4 with kickstand there is no screen wobble and the KB is attached, so no issues that you note, but maybe with some others

Additional unlike the touchbar, with touch screen functionality and user interface is enhanced as eg the point of focus is literally at you finger/pen tip and not elsewhere

As you have noted a pen interface is Pro choice in some applications, given that MBP are 85% or more for armatures who want touch (as you note), be it for casual use or otherwise then surely forcing MBP biggest user group to opt for expensive addons or an IPP is questionable

W10 is identical whether you have a touch screen or not, but with a touch enabled device you have more options natively

I don't think touch on a PC/laptop is likely to be a complete solution but with new devices and interfaces that have and will evolve its potential is high

It really depends. Firstly, when I say 'Pro', I mean professional users who require/want touch input, which is mostly graphics. It may have no 'Wobble' when in tend mode or whatever, but it is not a natural, ergonomic or usable position to try to draw in. It needs to emulate paper to be truly useful, simply using a pen to touch stuff on screen as a means of speeding up inputs is not enough and is not what professionals use it for. When using a computer, multi-touch input is far more important than single touch, so as you say it increases the functionality - I find it doesn't, I like the touchbar when I can drag a slider whilst still seeing the slider on the screen. Using my finger/pen on the screen would hide this interface.

You say the MBP is 85% for amateurs, and that Apple are ignoring this group? That makes no sense. The MBP is made for professionals and professionals by and large are the only group willing to pay £3k for a laptop. There are a number of amateur users for sure, but nowhere near that level.

From what you say, Apple's solution here should be to release a less pro laptop dedicated to the features less pro users want. Negating the idea that less pro users buy the pro laptop because they want the best. So all that would happen is no one would buy it, and if Apple started putting a focus onto these kind of features for the MBP then less professionals would buy them, which would make them become less pro anyway... Basically, everything has a target audience. The MBP has it's own as does the Surface, both are good devices in their own right but you can't turn one into the other. If the Surface fits all the boxes then buy it, there's no reason to want Apple to do the same. Personally I want a fast, solid, functional computer. But if I wanted a touchy feely portable then I'd consider a Surface, I wouldn't hold off because I wanted Apple to do the same thing.

Anyway, doesn't really matter. Just buy a Cintiq HD and have a far better touch experience than an iPad Pro or Surface could ever hope to deliver.

 

[Queen6]

It really depends. Firstly, when I say 'Pro', I mean professional users who require/want touch input, which is mostly graphics. It may have no 'Wobble' when in tend mode or whatever, but it is not a natural, ergonomic or usable position to try to draw in. It needs to emulate paper to be truly useful, simply using a pen to touch stuff on screen as a means of speeding up inputs is not enough and is not what professionals use it for. When using a computer, multi-touch input is far more important than single touch, so as you say it increases the functionality - I find it doesn't, I like the touchbar when I can drag a slider whilst still seeing the slider on the screen. Using my finger/pen on the screen would hide this interface.

You say the MBP is 85% for amateurs, and that Apple are ignoring this group? That makes no sense. The MBP is made for professionals and professionals by and large are the only group willing to pay £3k for a laptop. There are a number of amateur users for sure, but nowhere near that level.

From what you say, Apple's solution here should be to release a less pro laptop dedicated to the features less pro users want. Negating the idea that less pro users buy the pro laptop because they want the best. So all that would happen is no one would buy it, and if Apple started putting a focus onto these kind of features for the MBP then less professionals would buy them, which would make them become less pro anyway... Basically, everything has a target audience. The MBP has it's own as does the Surface, both are good devices in their own right but you can't turn one into the other. If the Surface fits all the boxes then buy it, there's no reason to want Apple to do the same. Personally I want a fast, solid, functional computer. But if I wanted a touchy feely portable then I'd consider a Surface, I wouldn't hold off because I wanted Apple to do the same thing.

Anyway, doesn't really matter. Just buy a Cintiq HD and have a far better touch experience than an iPad Pro or Surface could ever hope to deliver.

MBP is made to impress the well heeled consumer. Non of my colleagues or any of the other professional users I know have bought and or retained the new design MBP. They are either holding on to older hardware or switching to Windows, with the comments being predominantly the same; tragic keyboard, inadequate port solution enforced use of dongles, reduced battery capacity.

With some being diehard Apple fans, personally the 2016 MBP design is the first model of the MBP that I have not purchased, already having replaced the 13"MBP with Microsoft's Surface Book, 15" up next once it was given the choice would be a MBP today it's difficult to justify given the inadequacies of the product...

Q-6

 

[SteveJUAE]

It really depends. Firstly, when I say 'Pro', I mean professional users who require/want touch input, which is mostly graphics. It may have no 'Wobble' when in tend mode or whatever, but it is not a natural, ergonomic or usable position to try to draw in. It needs to emulate paper to be truly useful, simply using a pen to touch stuff on screen as a means of speeding up inputs is not enough and is not what professionals use it for. When using a computer, multi-touch input is far more important than single touch, so as you say it increases the functionality - I find it doesn't, I like the touchbar when I can drag a slider whilst still seeing the slider on the screen. Using my finger/pen on the screen would hide this interface.

You say the MBP is 85% for amateurs, and that Apple are ignoring this group? That makes no sense. The MBP is made for professionals and professionals by and large are the only group willing to pay £3k for a laptop. There are a number of amateur users for sure, but nowhere near that level.

From what you say, Apple's solution here should be to release a less pro laptop dedicated to the features less pro users want. Negating the idea that less pro users buy the pro laptop because they want the best. So all that would happen is no one would buy it, and if Apple started putting a focus onto these kind of features for the MBP then less professionals would buy them, which would make them become less pro anyway... Basically, everything has a target audience. The MBP has it's own as does the Surface, both are good devices in their own right but you can't turn one into the other. If the Surface fits all the boxes then buy it, there's no reason to want Apple to do the same. Personally I want a fast, solid, functional computer. But if I wanted a touchy feely portable then I'd consider a Surface, I wouldn't hold off because I wanted Apple to do the same thing.

Anyway, doesn't really matter. Just buy a Cintiq HD and have a far better touch experience than an iPad Pro or Surface could ever hope to deliver.

Sorry and my appols if I was unclear the 15% of MAC owners that are professionals is a number from Apple and not a made up number. The MBP is a premium all round device that can stretch for some Pro use, but not all hence the uproar by some Pro's with the latest gen who felt they had been ignored

The biggest majority of MAC owners (85%) are normal users and armatures, some of these would gain functionality and avoid expensive add-on's for occasional use of pen/touch

Of the 15% of Pro's, the number that require touch for their profession is any ones guess, but strip away all the other Pro's that are developers or admins etc etc and I suspect your left with single digit %

I agree this small amount of Pro's be it in W10 or MacOS are more likely to require or use a external Wacom or other device for their pen input than a touch screen but a touch screen would not have any detriment to this and still enable a pro to make mods by pen when away from the desk.

Personally I would like to see Apple compete in this touch/2 in 1 arena with full OS but it's unlikely with the focus on mobile OS devices

 

[consumeritis]

It's not so much touch as the pen that is missing.

The iPad Pro might be great for pen input but I can't use it as a development machine to compile my software. With Mac, I am forced to use two devices - one with a keyboard and full OS for writing or programming, and one with pen support for drawing, whether that's an iPad or a Wacom. It's awkward to have either a display with a cable and requiring power (not very portable), or have an iPad which can't run the same applications and needs to transfer data.

With Windows, I can have the same laptop run an IDE and then flip it over and draw with the pen. From reviews, it looks like the N-Trig digitiser on recent Surface computers is getting up there in quality. Windows 10 even has handwriting recognition that just pops up when you're using a pen display.

Artists and other creative professionals are another class of user than used to prefer Apple, but the best solutions increasingly appear to be on Windows. I really love the build quality of Mac and prefer OSX, but I just feel the features on the other side are getting too good to pass up.

 

[Queen6]

I just feel the features on the other side are getting too good to pass up.

This, and exactly why I passed on the 2016 MBP, opting for a Surface Book which has proved to be spectacularly productive for my needs. I once envisioned that the likes of Surface Book would be the type of notebook only Apple would be capable of producing, with no doubt a little more flair and elegance. Ultimately when it comes down to business machines that directly generate revenue the favourite will always be the best tool for the job, not what impresses at the coffee shop.

The ever "Thinner" design criteria, not features & usability and meeting professional users needs is a certainly path of diminishing returns for many, equally as has been pointed out Apple is simply designing and serving it's primary Mac audience...

Q-6

 

[jackoatmon]

There's no way in heck. They're already making the iPad pro for precisely this function, and they made it loud and clear this year with the Touch Bar that they have no interest in greasy fingerprints on laptop screens.

Thank goodness.