Will there ever be a new large iMac (Pro)?

[askunk]

I don't think they can compete anytime soon with NVIDIA in raw numbers. It's a SoC, not a dedicated chip. The goal isn't the same.

AS SoC will have totally different TDPs, therefore I wouldn't exclude that low- to mid-range dGPU can be beaten by a good APU/SoC given the right architecture.

Apple will move eventually to bigger dies or chiplet systems and most surely will need active air cooling on Pro machines. I am just sceptical about them catching up with the high-end AMD and nVIDIA anytime soon. However, with Apple you never know... 🙂

 

[Azrael9]

The “bendy 12.9” is only a fake news.

Ah...an 'iPad' bend 'denier.'

It is *absolutely* not 'fake' news.

I went into a PC World store myself to see the 'flexible' iPad for myself. 😛

...and tested the 12.9's diagonal strength. It bends. Badly. I can see why it's been having issues upon cooling and into the box and probably in use with users...and I wouldn't put that in a 'ruck' sack.

...merely...with an index from my left and right hand...and it flexes, I think, badly. So I can well believe the iPad 12.9 has had issues if it has that much flex in it. It costs £1000. It's frame integrity isn't good enough.

How badly? The 11 inch iPad Pro is far more sturdy. I couldn't apply the same level of duress on it's frame. ie. Sturdier. It's a significant difference in chassis integrity in going from the 11 to 12.9 iPad.

Azrael.

 

[FrankySavvy]

Quick question. If Apple updated the design of the 27” iMac would they keep the same identifier model number or would they have to release a new Eurasian number?

 

[Azrael9]

People keep saying that ARM will not be cheaper. I think people are missing few things here.

Apple will provide their complete silicon -> that is CPU and GPU in one. Now, lets take 27" iMac as example that ships with 570X minimum GPU and goes to 580X GPU before BTO options. I don't know how much these are sold for to Apple but that is savings there. Then, Intel CPU will not be purchased also so savings there.
Now, are you telling me, that paying 2 external vendors is cheaper than what Apple is building inhouse and its actually one chip instead of 2?
I think people are completely missing the point here and don't realise how big this ARM is. Apple will kill every competition in terms of performance and if Apple decides to pass the savings on customer then even the price.

Look at smartphone market - no one can match Apple's performance. Now, Apple will dominate that computers the same way as they dominate the performance in smartphones.

Intel is pretty much done longterm unless they come up with something that would be able to compete.

Think of a scenario where in few years Apple's solution will be 2+ time faster than anything Intel produces. More people and businesses will switch to Apple as there is no way people (or anyone) would say no to that kind of performance. Just like they are dominating with iPhone they will dominate (eventually) with computers.

If Maya runs crazy fast on Apple's solution then why in the hell would my work still keep the crappy xeon's and quadro's?

Am I the only one that sees this? @Azrael9 I'm sure you are with me too, right?

This is the beginning of the x86 end. Intel is pretty much dead and AMD we shall see if they innovate and keep up with Apple (unlikely).
Sooner or later, everyone will switch to ARM.

Intel has been doing chips for what? Half a century? Now Apple comes in and in 10 years achieve amazing results. Imagine Apple in another 10 years.

I wish that 27 (or 32) iMac was first but I also know that 1st gen will be 'weak' compared to the beast that we will get in 2nd or 3rd generation!

So yeah, I will probably get the last intel iMac and then in 2-3 years (before Apple Care runs out) sell it and upgrade to what hopefully will be a monster! The future looks bright guys and I cannot wait to be part of this.

WWDC was fusion crap but this ARM looks so good! I wish I wasn't so impatient though. 🙂

Hello Freida,

'Freida will like that.' Thought I.

I was wondering if you enjoyed the Mac ARM preview of Maya. 😉 I was mightily impressed with the demo'.

I remember when the 'Maya' guy introduced the 'Mac' version of Maya back when it was quite a landmark for it to arrive on the Mac. In fact, I think Apple hired the Maya person to Apple not that long after. (What was his name, Nick Kerr or something?)

A few things were noticed at the time. ie. That the 'Mac' version (not for the 1st time...) was not optimised and it didn't run as fast as the Windows version. (Probably getting the 2nd class Open GL experience amongst other issues like code optimisation for a 1st time port.) It probably got 'better' since it's Mac introduction.

It's running on Mac ARM wayyyyy faster than that 1st time Mac port. 🙂 And, more seriously, it's running super fast in emulation with Mac ARM for 6 million polygons!! Then you add the shaders? BOOM! Smooth as butter. I know my 2012 iMac and Lightwave3d just couldn't do that without crawling. :O

With all due respect to people with Xeons and Quadros. It's about software optimisation with hardware. Non-optimised software can kill hardware. Intel's single core performance is nothing special. They've sat on their lead for half a decade. Whereas single core performance for Apple's A cpu has been very strong with each iteration. Expecially vs the mobile competition. I wouldn't bet against Apple AS cpu tonkin' a Xeon in single threaded performance.

Apple have been making 'process' progress. And Intel hasn't. Ofc. Apple subcontract that out to TMSC. 5nm. AS 14 8 +4 lower power core cpu? In eg. An iMac 24 inch? I think a native port of Maya runs like gangbusters on that. It's a what? 3 day port according to Craig. Can be up and running natively. Let alone in emulation where it seemed eye poppingly good.

So, the former world of 2nd class, late ports. With bad code optimisation...and paying the same £price for Windows based gpus that perform half as good on Mac because of out of date Open GL drives and the inherent weakness of it as 'middleware' (how do you gain any advantage of Open GL on Mac when Windows/Apps/Nv and AMD all pile in far more resources into the GL drives than the Mac version? IT was a no win deal for Mac creatives.) so you're £1000 gpu performs like a £500. That's just not good enough for Mac customers.

So that's what the deprecated GL is about. The past. Metal is the future. And between Maya and Lara Croft (even under emulation...) they showed that an A12z is quite remarkable. The AS 14 will be mouth wateringly good.

And, yes. That Mini A12z was running a 32 inch XDR. :OOO

I think there is every chance the AS ARM for Mac will be twice as fast as the Intel cpu. It's humiliation or nothing.

I'd def' expect gains of 50-100%. On some things. Perhaps it will be greater depending on the task.

And I woudn't underestimate an apple GPU against anyone. 1000x greater in ten years on iPad gpu. That's a world class silicon team. No doubt.

3x4k streams on Final Cut? The vega 48 on a £3560 iMac only just allows 4k playback smoothly? And here we have an iPad chip embarrassing it.

As for passing on price savings. I hope Apple take the opportunity to put the boot into Windows marketshare. This is their chance.

If they 'merely' went back to their old price points eg.

Mini ARM = £499 and £750.
iMac ARM 24. = £999 and £1250.
iMac ARM 27 = £1450 and £1750.
iMac ARM Pro = £1950 and £2250.
Mac ARM Pro = £2500 and £2750.

Standard price points minus BTO. They can charge much less and still make the same profit. Sure, there is R&D but it will be amortised over the life time of the product. They don't have to pay Intel so that is £3billion to pay for the R&D. So they can still make a profit and pass on savings to the customer.

But Apple's pricing behaviour of late is likely being the 'seeded' rumour of R&D up front costs of silicon blah blah etc.

Listen, the iPhone and iPad pay for the cost of Apple silicon. Putting that R&D on Mac prices in isolation to justify higher or even current high prices is in line with the current 'stand' and 'wheels' thinking...and iPhone £1k thinking and iPad £1500 thinking. (ie world's away from Steve Job's iPad at £399 thinking.)

If Macs held at current price Apple could say...'We're giving you twice the speed at the same price.' That would be more like their bag. Holding prices and adding 'value.'

But this is a real chance to break the 5 million Macs sold per quarter glass ceiling. With Mac ARM. I can see Apple selling 10 million Macs per quarter.

If they cut prices to 'affordable' levels which they, currently, are not.

Azrael.
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Yeah.. hard to imagine under Tim Apple... which reminds me... w/e happened to that random rumour about Tim Apple being on his way out?

Well, an heir apparent is being groomed...

Azrael.

 

[Mike The Soundguy]

Ok my 2013 iMac shut down again twice this week ! It's time to just grab that iMac pro refurb base model ! I'm going to pair it with and LG 23.7 Ultra fine and call it a day for now . I have too much work to do and can't wait . LOL So I'm sure as soon after I do this ..... You all will probably see some new 32" iMac , ARM with built in free coffee maker come out the next day ! LOL Yeeesh ....

 

[ssong]

[automerge]1593004980[/automerge]


Well, an heir apparent is being groomed...

Azrael.

I sure hope it’s Craig...

 

[Azrael9]

AS SoC will have totally different TDPs, therefore I wouldn't exclude that low- to mid-range dGPU can be beaten by a good APU/SoC given the right architecture.

Apple will move eventually to bigger dies or chiplet systems and most surely will need active air cooling on Pro machines. I am just sceptical about them catching up with the high-end AMD and nVIDIA anytime soon. However, with Apple you never know... 🙂

Hello askunk 🙂

A SoC solution gpu Apple style has already humiliated the Intel equivalent under emulation running Tomb Raider...and Maya. And run 3x4k streams. The last iMac with Vega 48 (no less...) was just about 'smooth' doing 'a' 4k stream.

It's software. It always is. And that homogeny with hardware. You get optimisation vs hardware from different vendors and software from different vendors...and urgggh. The Mac has been on the receiving end of this disparate modular 'brute' force but inefficient approach for two decades. And?

All it got was Macs are expensive and they don't perform as well as PCs costing half as much etc. And you can't use Macs for games. *Poke. Poke. Poke. Rag. Rag. Rag.

That all changes with mac ARM.

As I predicated (I'll give myself half a point for this...), iPad and iPhone apps would come to Mac ARM. But I thought they'd need Marzipan to do this. (And they will for proper screen scaling...to target resolution?) But it should have occured to me. It's an ARM chip. They'll run 100% natively! Once I saw that demo? I was blow away. Instantly, the Mac becomes a bigger gaming platform. A bigger software platform than windows!!! Ka-BOOOOOOOOOOOOM!

And £££. It's a question. Will Apple Mac ARM computers sell more units than eg. a PS5 in it's 1st year. 🙂

Y'see. I'd imagined it would be eg. An A14x mobile chip going up against the PS5 consoles and the Wintel PCs.

But it's now crystal clear, we're not going to have the 'current and temporary' A12z nominal watt cpu going up against the Wintel and Console hordes.

No.

It's going to be a full fat AS SoC with custom co-processoers (I lost count of how many smaller co-processors that were previewed for the Apple Silicon.) in addition to the cpu and gpu.

That means you don't have one general cpu doing it all. They're looking at what slows a computer down in software...and adding co-processors to allow TRUE multitasking from Software to at the Hardware level.

As an old Amiga fan (never owned one...but wanted one...) and a C64 fan. I was always fond of 'co-processor' solutions and we're going 'back to the light' on this one it seems.

The dinosaurs are on their way out. It's a mammal future.

Azrael.

 

[Grohowiak]

Hello Freida,

'Freida will like that.' Thought I.

I was wondering if you enjoyed the Mac ARM preview of Maya. 😉 I was mightily impressed with the demo'.

I remember when the 'Maya' guy introduced the 'Mac' version of Maya back when it was quite a landmark for it to arrive on the Mac. In fact, I think Apple hired the Maya person to Apple not that long after. (What was his name, Nick Kerr or something?)

A few things were noticed at the time. ie. That the 'Mac' version (not for the 1st time...) was not optimised and it didn't run as fast as the Windows version. (Probably getting the 2nd class Open GL experience amongst other issues like code optimisation for a 1st time port.) It probably got 'better' since it's Mac introduction.

It's running on Mac ARM wayyyyy faster than that 1st time Mac port. 🙂 And, more seriously, it's running super fast in emulation with Mac ARM for 6 million polygons!! Then you add the shaders? BOOM! Smooth as butter. I know my 2012 iMac and Lightwave3d just couldn't do that without crawling. :O

With all due respect to people with Xeons and Quadros. It's about software optimisation with hardware. Non-optimised software can kill hardware. Intel's single core performance is nothing special. They've sat on their lead for half a decade. Whereas single core performance for Apple's A cpu has been very strong with each iteration. Expecially vs the mobile competition. I wouldn't bet against Apple AS cpu tonkin' a Xeon in single threaded performance.

Apple have been making 'process' progress. And Intel hasn't. Ofc. Apple subcontract that out to TMSC. 5nm. AS 14 8 +4 lower power core cpu? In eg. An iMac 24 inch? I think a native port of Maya runs like gangbusters on that. It's a what? 3 day port according to Craig. Can be up and running natively. Let alone in emulation where it seemed eye poppingly good.

So, the former world of 2nd class, late ports. With bad code optimisation...and paying the same £price for Windows based gpus that perform half as good on Mac because of out of date Open GL drives and the inherent weakness of it as 'middleware' (how do you gain any advantage of Open GL on Mac when Windows/Apps/Nv and AMD all pile in far more resources into the GL drives than the Mac version? IT was a no win deal for Mac creatives.) so you're £1000 gpu performs like a £500. That's just not good enough for Mac customers.

So that's what the deprecated GL is about. The past. Metal is the future. And between Maya and Lara Croft (even under emulation...) they showed that an A12z is quite remarkable. The AS 14 will be mouth wateringly good.

And, yes. That Mini A12z was running a 32 inch XDR. :OOO

I think there is every chance the AS ARM for Mac will be twice as fast as the Intel cpu. It's humiliation or nothing.

I'd def' expect gains of 50-100%. On some things. Perhaps it will be greater depending on the task.

And I woudn't underestimate an apple GPU against anyone. 1000x greater in ten years on iPad gpu. That's a world class silicon team. No doubt.

3x4k streams on Final Cut? The vega 48 on a £3560 iMac only just allows 4k playback smoothly? And here we have an iPad chip embarrassing it.

As for passing on price savings. I hope Apple take the opportunity to put the boot into Windows marketshare. This is their chance.

If they 'merely' went back to their old price points eg.

Mini ARM = £499 and £750.
iMac ARM 24. = £999 and £1250.
iMac ARM 27 = £1450 and £1750.
iMac ARM Pro = £1950 and £2250.
Mac ARM Pro = £2500 and £2750.

Standard price points minus BTO. They can charge much less and still make the same profit. Sure, there is R&D but it will be amortised over the life time of the product. They don't have to pay Intel so that is £3billion to pay for the R&D. So they can still make a profit and pass on savings to the customer.

But Apple's pricing behaviour of late is likely being the 'seeded' rumour of R&D up front costs of silicon blah blah etc.

Listen, the iPhone and iPad pay for the cost of Apple silicon. Putting that R&D on Mac prices in isolation to justify higher or even current high prices is in line with the current 'stand' and 'wheels' thinking...and iPhone £1k thinking and iPad £1500 thinking. (ie world's away from Steve Job's iPad at £399 thinking.)

If Macs held at current price Apple could say...'We're giving you twice the speed at the same price.' That would be more like their bag. Holding prices and adding 'value.'

But this is a real chance to break the 5 million Macs sold per quarter glass ceiling. With Mac ARM. I can see Apple selling 10 million Macs per quarter.

If they cut prices to 'affordable' levels which they, currently, are not.

Azrael.


Azrael.

Since I work with Maya quite extensively I need to point out that we only saw ONE aspect of the whole thing that relies on GPU rendering.
Physics, animation, caustics, reflections during final render are as much important.
I can get similar UI smoothness with a decent quadro card but what I want to know is how the whole package will work.
Apple was very narrow with showing mostly GPU tasks on their demo. Sure as hell looks awesome but I'm not buying it yet. I am following it closely though 🙂

 

[Azrael9]

Ok my 2013 iMac shut down again twice this week ! It's time to just grab that iMac pro refurb base model ! I'm going to pair it with and LG 23.7 Ultra fine and call it a day for now . I have too much work to do and can't wait . LOL So I'm sure as soon after I do this ..... You all will probably see some new 32" iMac , ARM with built in free coffee maker come out the next day ! LOL Yeeesh ....

Hello Mike The Soundguy, 🙂

If you can't afford to wait, you must do what you feel is right with it being work related. The iMac Pro refurb at £3500+-ish...if you search around will stand you in good stead for now.

As for the coffee marker. Apple will charge you £1000 for it as an extra.

For now. Your work comes 1st. The harder the deal you push for now can be offset against getting something else later trade wise.

Azrael.
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Since I work with Maya quite extensively I need to point out that we only saw ONE aspect of the whole thing that relies on GPU rendering.
Physics, animation, caustics, reflections during final render are as much important.
I can get similar UI smoothness with a decent quadro card but what I want to know is how the whole package will work.
Apple was very narrow with showing mostly GPU tasks on their demo. Sure as hell looks awesome but I'm not buying it yet. I am following it closely though 🙂

The proof is always in the pudding (with custard, please.)

But the fact you get similar performance with a Quadro vs an iPad A12z emulating Maya kind of proves Apple's point. At least upon what limited tests we saw...

And Apple marketing? Grave danger...

Azrael.
[automerge]1593006090[/automerge]

I sure hope it’s Craig...

Top bloke. He's the kinda of guy I'd like to see running Apple. Genuine Mac guy. You can hear it when he speaks.

Azrael.
[automerge]1593006159[/automerge]

AS SoC will have totally different TDPs, therefore I wouldn't exclude that low- to mid-range dGPU can be beaten by a good APU/SoC given the right architecture.

Apple will move eventually to bigger dies or chiplet systems and most surely will need active air cooling on Pro machines. I am just sceptical about them catching up with the high-end AMD and nVIDIA anytime soon. However, with Apple you never know... 🙂

Well, if it's getting the same smoothness as an Nvidia Quadro...

Azrael.
[automerge]1593006671[/automerge]

If an update is released soon, I need to make a decision soon. Intel OR Apple silicon...
Safe but near EOL or new, interesting but insecure which apps that runs...

Questions: My critical apps are Fusion 360, "R", Rstudio, Mendeley and Modo/Blender. Will Rosetta2 support these without issues? I assume Modo/Blender will be difficult as neither uses metal at the moment as far as I understand.

All other software I use seem to be ported.

Yes. Rosetta2. It translates them upon installation. It won't be long before they do support native Mac ARM as they'll walk out of Apple stores if Apple gets back to sane pricing. 20 million Mac ARMs in year 1? Installed base of Macs. As big as the traditional Mac base that was always touted back when. And we had plenty of 3d apps back then bar Studio Max or SoftImage.

100% extra performance? Yes please.

There are a few users like you and myself who need to make a decision. That's hard to do without a new product on offer to consider.

I aint buying Apple's old rope iMac.

Intel iMac will do you for 2-4 years over this transition.
ARM iMac is going to age it real fast. And Apple will make sure they do because of £££ sales and moving units. I'd say 50-100% faster. And I wouldn't bet against Apple putting that RDNA1 in the blender.

Ultimately, I'm in a similar situation. I used Zbrush, Poser Pro 12, Lightwave3D 2018, Affinity Suite (but they're on the Mac store...) But I expect them to work under Rosetta.

The real question is how far apart are the Intel iMac and iMac ARMs going to be. I could be waiting until Christmas with January shipping by the sounds of what they were saying.

...and the Intel iMacs July to September for the RDNA1 respin and RNDA2 launch.

Head scratching.*

Azrael.

 

[Azrael9]

It is so much they need to demonstrate with AS that has not been demonstrated before with the iPad SoCs. They are not here to beat Intel but to communicate to the customers and share holders that they have taken the correct decision to switch to AS for the Mac line.

Oh they're here to beat Intel, alright. To beat the living daylights out of them. If the Apple vs Mobile competition is anything to go by.

They aren't doing AS to be 2nd to Intel in Laptops or anything else.

It just coincides with their product ambitions for customers and £££.

Azrael.
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If adoption rate is small this process might take even more.
At this point its all speculation but intel support I'm betting 4-5 AFTER first arm machine goes on public.

Adoption rate.

The one thing that helped the iPhone and iPad adoption rate?

Price. Around £399 vs the muted and touted £1000 by Mac fans and Analysts at the time.

Thank god for Steve Jobs.

We'll see if Tim Apple has the same 'vision' when Mac ARM is released.

Even at current prices, with 50-100% speed improvements...and current sales...of 5 million units...in one year = 20 million installed base. That's a £££ market for developers to make money in for a simple recompile that takes a few days... After all, it sounded like Adobe and M$ are just about ready... (they got caught really flat footed for the iPad market...)

This will be another gold rush. So, if I was other devs, I'd be wanted to get on Mac ARM before Adobe and M$ try to re-entrench their monopolies again.

Won't affect me. I won't be using either of them.

Azrael.

 

[pldelisle]

Ah...an 'iPad' bend 'denier.'

It is *absolutely* not 'fake' news.

I went into a PC World store myself to see the 'flexible' iPad for myself. 😛

...and tested the 12.9's diagonal strength. It bends. Badly. I can see why it's been having issues upon cooling and into the box and probably in use with users...and I wouldn't put that in a 'ruck' sack.

...merely...with an index from my left and right hand...and it flexes, I think, badly. So I can well believe the iPad 12.9 has had issues if it has that much flex in it. It costs £1000. It's frame integrity isn't good enough.

How badly? The 11 inch iPad Pro is far more sturdy. I couldn't apply the same level of duress on it's frame. ie. Sturdier. It's a significant difference in chassis integrity in going from the 11 to 12.9 iPad.

Azrael.

I have the 12.9 iPad Pro. I never tried to bend it or feel it would bend. I don’t sit on it too, and pay attention to my goods.
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I’m following a thread here https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...lization-apps-running-windows.2242576/page-17

interesting problematic with the new ARM SoC

 

[Azrael9]

I have the 12.9 iPad Pro. I never tried to bend it or feel it would bend. I don’t sit on it too, and pay attention to my goods.
[automerge]1593008187[/automerge]
I’m following a thread here https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...lization-apps-running-windows.2242576/page-17

interesting problematic with the new ARM SoC

Well, yes. Don't leave it lying around on the sofa for someone to sit on and deny that they did later... 😛

I always do the press, bend, push...test of everything I buy. The 11 inch iPad Pro is 'just right.' The 12.9 flexes poorly. Those extra 1.9 inches? It can't cope with. 😉 (...)

When Apple improve the grade of aluminium and rigidity of the chassis of the 12.9 iPad, I'll buy it. If not, I'll look at the 2017 iPad 12.9 with promotion until they do. They had this problem on the initial bigger iPhones until they got hammered on YouTube with it. And they fixed the problem with better alu and more rigid frame.

I didn't see Mac ARM running windows at all. But...perhaps a 'Virtual PC' solution might come along like in the old Power PC days where Windows was run this way. I think the solution for me...would be just to buy a cheap PC or the latest iMac Intel when it launches.

Azrael.

 

[iPadified]

Oh they're here to beat Intel, alright. To beat the living daylights out of them. If the Apple vs Mobile competition is anything to go by.

They aren't doing AS to be 2nd to Intel in Laptops or anything else.

It just coincides with their product ambitions for customers and £££.

Sorry it was poorly put. They are convinced that they have beaten Intel and the writing in on the wall. If you look through the threads about iPad you will find "it is a toy" "it cannot do real work", "it is large iPhone" and all that nonsense. These are the people that needs convincing that Apple can scale to MP territory in two years. I wonder what prototypes has went through that underground lab? 200W SoC the size of the Big Navi? Probabaly and that roadmap is going to be worth billions in share value.

Not long time ago this thread discussed 125W CPU and 5700XT and cases to cool 500W setups. An iPP under sustained load draws 8W by contrast so new territory. Are all of you convinced that AS will reach this within two yers time and keep a hefty efficacy gain?

 

[pldelisle]

Yeah seems I won't get rid of my good old Sandy Bridge server finally ....
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Are all of you convinced that AS will reach this within two yers time and keep a hefty efficacy gain?

Totally confident.

 

[Azrael9]

iPad and iPhone apps on Apple silicon Macs - WWDC20 - Videos - Apple Developer

Apple silicon Macs can run many iPad and iPhone apps as-is, and these apps will be made available to users on the Mac through the Mac App...

developer.apple.com

Game changer. M$'s lawn just got napalmed.

INtel are next with AS. Hydrogen Bomb pending.

Azrael.
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Yeah seems I won't get rid of my good old Sandy Bridge server finally ....
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Totally confident.

Supremely confident.

Azrael.
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Not long time ago this thread discussed 125W CPU and 5700XT and cases to cool 500W setups. An iPP under sustained load draws 8W by contrast so new territory. Are all of you convinced that AS will reach this within two yers time and keep a hefty efficacy gain?

An A12Z ran 3x4k streams.

I saw one YouTube video where the Vega48 managed to do 1x4k stream. (An 'improvement' over the 580 gpu which stuttered in Final Cut Pro.)

And...ran Maya. 6 million poly and shaded scene. Under emulation. As 'smooth' as a Quadro?

...and Lara Croft smooth as butter. Under emulation. 1080p. Which is pretty much still the dominant gaming res'.

That isn't custom 'Mac' AS silicon.

But the AS14 for 'Mac' will be.

That's worth pondering the thinking.

The Radeon 5700XT has been the best AMD have been able to offer from a company that is just about keeping it's head above water.

Apple have beaten Intel, AMD and other mobile opposition soundly for the last ten years in mobile phones and pads.

1.5 trillion. And Apple are coming for the rest of that £££. Rather than paying Intel 3billion+. Or paying Imagination a cut for the gpu in iPhones?

If they publicly humiliated Imagination...I wouldn't expect AMD to fair any better.

The 5700XT is a year out of date. I wouldn't put bets against Apple completely destroying it...and Intel's recent CPUs.

Azrael.

 

[Freida]

Totally, the Maya preview was nice but to be honest I would love to know the details of that scene. Having just shaders is not the best representation. If the character moved and had complex blendshapes and all that fancy staff then that would be even nicer. Also, he didn't have shadows on and the AA settings seemed to be on the lowest setting as it was still not smooth. So yeah, it looked great but I think it was misleading to be honest. However, I'm not making judgement until I see it tested as it could as well be as awesome as he was showing.

All I really want is a big screen mac. The XDR is super expensive and 27" iMac is not gonna be updated to ARM this year and I don't even know that I would want the first gen. So, I'm toying with an idea to
-buy the refresh thats imminent and update it in 2-3 years time and keep that model for a long time
-buy 24" ARM and keep it for a year or so and then get 27" version and keep that for long
-buy ARM mac mini and get XDR screen (and cry about the price) and get a lobotomy to forget about the bill 😀 😀 😀

Seeing that we are so close to ARM Mac which I think will be awesome I'm kinda hesitant to give 'Intel' my money especially when all what they produce these days is weak (especially compared to AMD).

Also, if RDNA2 won't happen then thats another think - do I want to pay Apple's premium to get outdated GPU?

I really hope Apple will give us XDR mini - so same panel but stripped down of all the fancy stuff that make it expensive and introduce it in about $2000 price tag.
Or give us 32" iMac with that panel. The panel itself can't be that expensive. I remember when the 27" 5k was out that you could get the panel itself in China for about $150 and then get few components and make it work. I think the whole bill was for under $200. I even saw the video which was interesting. 🙂

Anyway, I assume that I am most likely going to buy the update 27" and then will see what Apple gives us in a 1-2 years. That is probably the most logical scenario 🙂

Hello Freida,

'Freida will like that.' Thought I.

I was wondering if you enjoyed the Mac ARM preview of Maya. 😉 I was mightily impressed with the demo'.

I remember when the 'Maya' guy introduced the 'Mac' version of Maya back when it was quite a landmark for it to arrive on the Mac. In fact, I think Apple hired the Maya person to Apple not that long after. (What was his name, Nick Kerr or something?)

A few things were noticed at the time. ie. That the 'Mac' version (not for the 1st time...) was not optimised and it didn't run as fast as the Windows version. (Probably getting the 2nd class Open GL experience amongst other issues like code optimisation for a 1st time port.) It probably got 'better' since it's Mac introduction.

It's running on Mac ARM wayyyyy faster than that 1st time Mac port. 🙂 And, more seriously, it's running super fast in emulation with Mac ARM for 6 million polygons!! Then you add the shaders? BOOM! Smooth as butter. I know my 2012 iMac and Lightwave3d just couldn't do that without crawling. :O

With all due respect to people with Xeons and Quadros. It's about software optimisation with hardware. Non-optimised software can kill hardware. Intel's single core performance is nothing special. They've sat on their lead for half a decade. Whereas single core performance for Apple's A cpu has been very strong with each iteration. Expecially vs the mobile competition. I wouldn't bet against Apple AS cpu tonkin' a Xeon in single threaded performance.

Apple have been making 'process' progress. And Intel hasn't. Ofc. Apple subcontract that out to TMSC. 5nm. AS 14 8 +4 lower power core cpu? In eg. An iMac 24 inch? I think a native port of Maya runs like gangbusters on that. It's a what? 3 day port according to Craig. Can be up and running natively. Let alone in emulation where it seemed eye poppingly good.

So, the former world of 2nd class, late ports. With bad code optimisation...and paying the same £price for Windows based gpus that perform half as good on Mac because of out of date Open GL drives and the inherent weakness of it as 'middleware' (how do you gain any advantage of Open GL on Mac when Windows/Apps/Nv and AMD all pile in far more resources into the GL drives than the Mac version? IT was a no win deal for Mac creatives.) so you're £1000 gpu performs like a £500. That's just not good enough for Mac customers.

So that's what the deprecated GL is about. The past. Metal is the future. And between Maya and Lara Croft (even under emulation...) they showed that an A12z is quite remarkable. The AS 14 will be mouth wateringly good.

And, yes. That Mini A12z was running a 32 inch XDR. :OOO

I think there is every chance the AS ARM for Mac will be twice as fast as the Intel cpu. It's humiliation or nothing.

I'd def' expect gains of 50-100%. On some things. Perhaps it will be greater depending on the task.

And I woudn't underestimate an apple GPU against anyone. 1000x greater in ten years on iPad gpu. That's a world class silicon team. No doubt.

3x4k streams on Final Cut? The vega 48 on a £3560 iMac only just allows 4k playback smoothly? And here we have an iPad chip embarrassing it.

As for passing on price savings. I hope Apple take the opportunity to put the boot into Windows marketshare. This is their chance.

If they 'merely' went back to their old price points eg.

Mini ARM = £499 and £750.
iMac ARM 24. = £999 and £1250.
iMac ARM 27 = £1450 and £1750.
iMac ARM Pro = £1950 and £2250.
Mac ARM Pro = £2500 and £2750.

Standard price points minus BTO. They can charge much less and still make the same profit. Sure, there is R&D but it will be amortised over the life time of the product. They don't have to pay Intel so that is £3billion to pay for the R&D. So they can still make a profit and pass on savings to the customer.

But Apple's pricing behaviour of late is likely being the 'seeded' rumour of R&D up front costs of silicon blah blah etc.

Listen, the iPhone and iPad pay for the cost of Apple silicon. Putting that R&D on Mac prices in isolation to justify higher or even current high prices is in line with the current 'stand' and 'wheels' thinking...and iPhone £1k thinking and iPad £1500 thinking. (ie world's away from Steve Job's iPad at £399 thinking.)

If Macs held at current price Apple could say...'We're giving you twice the speed at the same price.' That would be more like their bag. Holding prices and adding 'value.'

But this is a real chance to break the 5 million Macs sold per quarter glass ceiling. With Mac ARM. I can see Apple selling 10 million Macs per quarter.

If they cut prices to 'affordable' levels which they, currently, are not.

Azrael.
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Well, an heir apparent is being groomed...

Azrael.

 

[Mike The Soundguy]

I think I just got the last iMac pro base refurb today . I put the order in and my credit card company messed up my transaction with verification etc . So it was either cancel and redo order or call apple . I double check the refurb site and no more base model ! So I got apple on the phone and my order was still there just waiting payment update . She told me I probably bought that last one there . So anyway she got everything straightened out and it will be here friday . Whew ! LOL I got to get busy . I'm going to go grab an LG23.7 ultra fine for my second monitor too .

 

[Kjs100]

All I really want is a big screen mac. The XDR is super expensive and 27" iMac is not gonna be updated to ARM this year and I don't even know that I would want the first gen. So, I'm toying with an idea to
-buy the refresh thats imminent and update it in 2-3 years time and keep that model for a long time
-buy 24" ARM and keep it for a year or so and then get 27" version and keep that for long
-buy ARM mac mini and get XDR screen (and cry about the price) and get a lobotomy to forget about the bill 😀 😀 😀

Im in a similar boat. I really want a 27", but to keep for a long time. Im probably gonna have to buy the 27 intel, as long it is a redesign, and then wait on the 27" ARM and take a hit selling the intel. If not, I'll hold on for the 24 ARM.

 

[Azrael9]

Buying an 'iPad' design Intel iMac seems to be the the closest thing to sanity for those who need a machine right now.

But that's July-Sept'.

If it's Sept' you may as well wait for the Mac ARM iMac.

Very frustrating. ie. Not knowing the time of shipping Macs.

Crumbs of comfort from mystic tea leaf readers we seek...

The other option is to put together a Hacktintosh for 'half' a year until iMac ARM ships. That way, you'd have the choice of a 32 inch monitor. 😛 It could be dual boot Windows/Mac.

If you're going dual workstation PC/Mac then it would suffice for your 'Mac' needs until iMac ARM arrives. Again, depends on the user's circumstances.

But I'd like to make that determination from seeing what the Intel iMac is like.

Azrael.

 

[Jamacfer]

Ah...an 'iPad' bend 'denier.'

It is *absolutely* not 'fake' news.

I went into a PC World store myself to see the 'flexible' iPad for myself. 😛

...and tested the 12.9's diagonal strength. It bends. Badly. I can see why it's been having issues upon cooling and into the box and probably in use with users...and I wouldn't put that in a 'ruck' sack.

...merely...with an index from my left and right hand...and it flexes, I think, badly. So I can well believe the iPad 12.9 has had issues if it has that much flex in it. It costs £1000. It's frame integrity isn't good enough.

How badly? The 11 inch iPad Pro is far more sturdy. I couldn't apply the same level of duress on it's frame. ie. Sturdier. It's a significant difference in chassis integrity in going from the 11 to 12.9 iPad.

Azrael.

Ah...you saw by yourself? What is the statistical impact of your so-called experience? I might reply that I own the same machine since day one and it is perfect and very resistant but it is useless to respond to those who spread only fake news.

 

[Azrael9]

I think I just got the last iMac pro base refurb today . I put the order in and my credit card company messed up my transaction with verification etc . So it was either cancel and redo order or call apple . I double check the refurb site and no more base model ! So I got apple on the phone and my order was still there just waiting payment update . She told me I probably bought that last one there . So anyway she got everything straightened out and it will be here friday . Whew ! LOL I got to get busy . I'm going to go grab an LG23.7 ultra fine for my second monitor too .

C'mon, Mike. Don't be a tease...

How much? 😉

Azrael.
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Ah...you saw by yourself? What is the statistical impact of your so-called experience? I might reply that I own the same machine since day one and it is perfect and very resistant but it is useless to respond to those who spread only fake news.

Yeah. 😉 My own eyes and everything. 🙂 Because, being the doubting Thomas that I am, I had to see this bend gate for myself..before giving Apple hard earned cash for inferior frame.

The statistical 'impact' of my 'so-called' experience (the superior metric by how I decide what I want...) is that the iPad 12.9 is 'bendy' and very easily bendable. With two index fingers press down on opposed diagonals. 😛

Some people do spread 'fake' news like CNN and probably most of the mainstream media. 😛

Back to the R&D labs for Apple. Bendy pad. No cash from me.

From the company that brought us bend phone, wheels, stand, socks and yes, bendy pad and...

...what was the other one...

...crepe keyboards.

Azrael.

 

[Azrael9]

Totally, the Maya preview was nice but to be honest I would love to know the details of that scene. Having just shaders is not the best representation. If the character moved and had complex blendshapes and all that fancy staff then that would be even nicer. Also, he didn't have shadows on and the AA settings seemed to be on the lowest setting as it was still not smooth. So yeah, it looked great but I think it was misleading to be honest. However, I'm not making judgement until I see it tested as it could as well be as awesome as he was showing.

All I really want is a big screen mac. The XDR is super expensive and 27" iMac is not gonna be updated to ARM this year and I don't even know that I would want the first gen. So, I'm toying with an idea to
-buy the refresh thats imminent and update it in 2-3 years time and keep that model for a long time
-buy 24" ARM and keep it for a year or so and then get 27" version and keep that for long
-buy ARM mac mini and get XDR screen (and cry about the price) and get a lobotomy to forget about the bill 😀 😀 😀

Seeing that we are so close to ARM Mac which I think will be awesome I'm kinda hesitant to give 'Intel' my money especially when all what they produce these days is weak (especially compared to AMD).

Also, if RDNA2 won't happen then thats another think - do I want to pay Apple's premium to get outdated GPU?

I really hope Apple will give us XDR mini - so same panel but stripped down of all the fancy stuff that make it expensive and introduce it in about $2000 price tag.
Or give us 32" iMac with that panel. The panel itself can't be that expensive. I remember when the 27" 5k was out that you could get the panel itself in China for about $150 and then get few components and make it work. I think the whole bill was for under $200. I even saw the video which was interesting. 🙂

Anyway, I assume that I am most likely going to buy the update 27" and then will see what Apple gives us in a 1-2 years. That is probably the most logical scenario 🙂

I think the good news about the Intel iMac is that it will perform much better than iMacs from 2012-2018 or any other Mac for that matter.

8-10 cores. 5700XT. In Mac desktop terms. It's going to be a superior Mac desktop. Coupled with the SSD and cooling(?) changes. (If it gets the 'new' iPad/XDR style design...as a way to encourage Intel iMac sales...)

It will be light years ahead of what I was using.

The one bit of hesitation I had was iMac ARM being able to run those millions of iPad and iPhone apps. But if I bought an iPad (one that doesn't bend...) I can still run iOS.

Like you said. It gives you a couple of years to see the transition into the better machines. (In two years time...an A16 chip which will, in all likelihood...stomp all over this Intel iMac update pending whether it's substantial or not...) All the software will be ported. Or not.

And then it's a case of taking the 'hit' and selling it. Or keeping your iMac as a dual Mac/Windows workstation for compatibility with your current software/work, games for Windows or software that isn't on Mac. You have an extra machine to work on whilst forging ahead with a iMac ARM. eg. You'll have 8 cores and a decent gpu to render out Maya scenes whilst working on another Maya scene on your iMac ARM.

You'll probably be able to eGPU the 'older' machine with Radeon RDNA2 to give it a new lease of life. GPU rendering workflows etc.

As I've learned, having two machines (for me) is the way forward.

So yes, there is hesitancy there. Because it's relatively close. And the new iMac ARM will run all your intel stuff (in the main...) but we don't know just how the imac 24 ARM will run on teh AS 14 but it should be pretty darn good. Should transform the entry level iMac segment.

Just some quick maths. Even the entry level 27 intel at £1750 would be an improvement on the current line up. Decent gpu, cpu, ram and ssd.

if the iMac 24 inch ARM comes out at £999 (it's suppose to be cheaper?)

The iMac buyer would be out £2750. That's cheaper than buying an iMac Pro. There's enough there to buy eGPU and RDNA2 for the Intel. Or buy a non-bendy iPad or both and still be cheaper than the iMac Pro.

You'd have access to Windows, Intel Mac, ARM Mac, iOS. Any 8 core iMac is also an 8 core PC in Bootcamp. So it's like getting a free £1750 pc in addition to the iMac Intel.

Azrael.
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Freida also made a good point re: Mac ARM Mini.

All of a sudden it becomes a compelling 'little' machine.

:O

Actual graphics and driving an XDR.

Apple could do with a 'Studio' display range.

4k. £500.
5k. £1000.
6k. £2000.

At 'sane' prices.

Azrael.

 

[Jamacfer]

C'mon, Mike. Don't be a tease...

How much? 😉

Azrael.
[automerge]1593017260[/automerge]


Yeah. 😉 My own eyes and everything. 🙂 Because, being the doubting Thomas that I am, I had to see this bend gate for myself..before giving Apple hard earned cash for inferior frame.

The statistical 'impact' of my 'so-called' experience (the superior metric by how I decide what I want...) is that the iPad 12.9 is 'bendy' and very easily bendable. With two index fingers press down on opposed diagonals. 😛

Some people do spread 'fake' news like CNN and probably most of the mainstream media. 😛

Back to the R&D labs for Apple. Bendy pad. No cash from me.

From the company that brought us bend phone, wheels, stand, socks and yes, bendy pad and...

...what was the other one...

...crepe keyboards.

Azrael.

Yes your own eyes are everything just for yourself and that is OK but please do not think that your little experience has absolute value and applies to everyone. As of CNN etc...but please, if you are looking for something in particular on the internet you can find everything even that donkeys fly. This does not mean that they are only fake news with statistical no value. Anyway of course if you sit on an iPad it will probably bend at that point better build it of stainless steel, it will weigh 10 kg but it can be useful as a bulletproof vest.

 

[FrankySavvy]

I am actually hoping to get the redesigned Intel iMac rather then ARM for now. I game on my Mac through boot camp and I would like to have that option for the next few years. Let them get all the kinks out of the transition and then I will jump in.

*HERES HOPING FOR JULY RELEASE

*within the next couple weeks preferably 🙂

 

[Jamacfer]

I am actually hoping to get the redesigned Intel iMac rather then ARM for now. I game on my Mac through boot camp and I would like to have that option for the next few years. Let them get all the kinks out of the transition and then I will jump in.

*HERES HOPING FOR JULY RELEASE

*within the next couple weeks preferably 🙂

I think that the refreshed Intel iMacs will be out very soon (July?) and the new 24” ARM iMac will be out around November.