Will we ever see a 2-in-1 MBP/MB?

[satchmo]

After seeing what competing laptop manufacturers have unveiled at CES, it feels like Apple’s stuck in a time warp.

There are super thin, detachable, flipable, touch screen, pen-enabled displays. Many are just as light, and thin as the latest from Apple.

Meanwhile Apple hasn’t strayed away from what a laptop was in the 1990’s. The design is functional, but it feels stale and lacking innovation.

Yes, I know we have an iPad and Pencil. But Apple has never been concerned about cannabalizing their own products. I’m in the market for a laptop, and while I’m firmly in the Apple ecosystem, the current MBP/MB lineup doesn’t entice me in the least.

 

[Closingracer]

After seeing what competing laptop manufacturers have unveiled at CES, it feels like Apple’s stuck in a time warp.

There are super thin, detachable, flipable, touch screen, pen-enabled displays. Many are just as light, and thin as the latest from Apple.

Meanwhile Apple hasn’t strayed away from what a laptop was in the 1990’s. The design is functional, but it feels stale and lacking innovation.

Yes, I know we have an iPad and Pencil. But Apple has never been concerned about cannabalizing their own products. I’m in the market for a laptop, and while I’m firmly in the Apple ecosystem, the current MBP/MB lineup doesn’t entice me in the least.

No and they don't need to. If you want one go buy a windows based one.

 

[casperes1996]

It's certainly not easy to say "Never!", but I highly doubt they ever will. And I also think they shouldn't. Tim Cook has made it clear that Apple thinks that whole market is quite a stupid idea with a bad user experience, and I agree on that front. However, as we'ver seen a couple of times before, Apple may one day come out and say "We figured out how to make it a good user experience!", and take the basic concept, but improve upon it to the degree it makes everyone else go "WHY DIDN'T WE THINK OF THAT?!".

But for now, let the Mac do what it's good at, and let the iPad do what it is good at. In the meantime, all these 2-in-1's and whatnots can be mediocre at it all at once.

 

[satchmo]

It's certainly not easy to say "Never!", but I highly doubt they ever will. And I also think they shouldn't. Tim Cook has made it clear that Apple thinks that whole market is quite a stupid idea with a bad user experience, and I agree on that front. However, as we'ver seen a couple of times before, Apple may one day come out and say "We figured out how to make it a good user experience!", and take the basic concept, but improve upon it to the degree it makes everyone else go "WHY DIDN'T WE THINK OF THAT?!".

But for now, let the Mac do what it's good at, and let the iPad do what it is good at. In the meantime, all these 2-in-1's and whatnots can be mediocre at it all at once.

I might be able to buy yours and Tim’s argument, except that Apple doesn’t really stand behind their rhetoric.

Running commercials (What’s a computer), that show users with an iPad with keyboard and Pencil, simply reinforces the convenience of switching from laptop to tablet. Why even sell accessories like that if they were so adamant on each device’s strengths.

In all honesty, I haven’t tried these 2-in-1’s myself. And if they are crap, well, there’s Apple opportunity to show us how it can be improved upon.

 

[casperes1996]

Running commercials (What’s a computer), that show users with an iPad with keyboard and Pencil, simply reinforces the convenience of switching from laptop to tablet. Why even sell accessories like that if they were so adamant on each device’s strengths.

Granted. That ad is absolute bunkersly bad. I can't remember exactly what it was, but not that long after that ad was shown, Phill Shiller also said something in a PR statement that was the complete opposite of what the ad said, whilst simultaneously referencing the ad... Completely bunkers. – However, this particular statement is something Apple has been behind for quite a long time by now.

In all honesty, I haven’t tried these 2-in-1’s myself. And if they are crap, well, there’s Apple opportunity to show us how it can be improved upon.

I definitely think there are some fundamental problems with designs like that. I'd say that Surface is the best it gets so far, and it makes for a decent laptop and a bad tablet. The opposite alternative also exists on the market, but nothing that's good, or surpassing good, at both. So yeah you're right, perhaps there is a right way of doing it that Apple could one day come out with - or perhaps an entirely new idea would be better. My personal money is on the latter, but I won't pretend to be able to predict the future.

 

[leekil]

The "What's a Computer?" ad doesn't show the convenience of switching from laptop to tablet. She uses the iPad Pro, and has never had a need for a computer. It's still the "computer is a truck" analogy that Steve Jobs made, and she hasn't had a need for a truck yet.

 

[leman]

There is no indication whatsoever that Apple wants pursue a design like that. One of the most tricky aspects of 2-in-1 design is user interaction and there is absolutely nothing in the macOS developer tools that would suggest this kind of thing (to give an example, hints of retina screens were present in the APIs years before first retina Macs appeared).

In addition, there are many issues with the 2-in-1 designs to begin with. They are simply too large and too heavy to be conveniently used as a tablet. If you primarily need the functions of a laptop, this functionality is nothing more but a useless gimmick (more so than an often criticized touchbar), and if you primarily need functions of a tablet, well then you are better off usung a proper tablet.

 

[Sterkenburg]

Apple has made clear on several occasions that they don't think it's a good idea to pursue that path, and in all honesty I think they are absolutely right on that front.

As others said above, the inherent problem of 2-in-1 designs is that they come with inevitable compromises on hardware power and user interface. There are competent examples on the market, the Surface line probably being the best, but imho the idea of an all-around machine that excels on both fronts is a chimera.

I personally prefer a combination of a great laptop (MBP) and a great tablet (iPad Pro), even though it entails carrying 2 devices, than an "ok" laptop that can occasionally turn into a clunky tablet, but of course your mileage may vary

 

[New_Mac_Smell]

2 in 1's don't really fit into any necessary category, other than providing marketing and convenience to a budget orientated audience. In a professional capacity, it doesn't offer enough meaningful power to be useful, and the awkwardness of the user experience is enough to put most off. Realistically as has been noted, a powerful laptop and a powerful tablet are still the desirable option for a professional. But when this costs closer to $4000, if you can offer a 'similar' experience for less than half, it's a great sales pitch to people who want these sort of options but for hobby use.

Maybe one day a tablet will be powerful enough and have professional software support on it. But working all day on a tablet is still an awful experience, where proper input is required. What they're great for is doing some very light work, and then quickly switching to draw something etc., but purely as a hobby/amateur product. Which is fair if you're not earning an income off it, it's a really hard price to argue with.

 

[Closingracer]

2 in 1's don't really fit into any necessary category, other than providing marketing and convenience to a budget orientated audience. In a professional capacity, it doesn't offer enough meaningful power to be useful, and the awkwardness of the user experience is enough to put most off. Realistically as has been noted, a powerful laptop and a powerful tablet are still the desirable option for a professional. But when this costs closer to $4000, if you can offer a 'similar' experience for less than half, it's a great sales pitch to people who want these sort of options but for hobby use.

Maybe one day a tablet will be powerful enough and have professional software support on it. But working all day on a tablet is still an awful experience, where proper input is required. What they're great for is doing some very light work, and then quickly switching to draw something etc., but purely as a hobby/amateur product. Which is fair if you're not earning an income off it, it's a really hard price to argue with.

The surface book is actually a good device.

 

[Fishrrman]

No.

 

[Hadron]

To be honest I don't believe Apple's stated reasons. I've used touchscreen laptops and 2-in-1s, and it's natural enough and does have it's uses, and is more useful and versatile than the Touch Bar that they tell us is an improvement to the laptop UI. So I think the truth is that Apple know that while there are some people who will want both laptop and tablet, and some for whom one or the other is fine, there are some who currently have both but who wouldn't need a separate tablet if a 2-in-1 were available. Hence I think that the real answer to the question is that as long as Apple think they stand to lose more iPad sales from a 2-in-1 than they would gain in laptop sales they won't release one, and if at some point in the future they decide the balance is the other way then they will. And the reasons they give now are just some flannel because they can't come out and say that (and if in the process their explanation includes a claim that their competitors are producing unsatisfactory products then so much the better).

 

[satchmo]

The "What's a Computer?" ad doesn't show the convenience of switching from laptop to tablet. She uses the iPad Pro, and has never had a need for a computer. It's still the "computer is a truck" analogy that Steve Jobs made, and she hasn't had a need for a truck yet.

Perhaps not lifting trucks or any serious computing, but it clearly has her typing on a keyboard in laptop mode and later using the Pencil in tablet mode. Power is one issue, but you can’t deny it’s convenience factor.

2 in 1's don't really fit into any necessary category, other than providing marketing and convenience to a budget orientated audience. In a professional capacity, it doesn't offer enough meaningful power to be useful, and the awkwardness of the user experience is enough to put most off. Realistically as has been noted, a powerful laptop and a powerful tablet are still the desirable option for a professional. But when this costs closer to $4000, if you can offer a 'similar' experience for less than half, it's a great sales pitch to people who want these sort of options but for hobby use.

Maybe one day a tablet will be powerful enough and have professional software support on it. But working all day on a tablet is still an awful experience, where proper input is required. What they're great for is doing some very light work, and then quickly switching to draw something etc., but purely as a hobby/amateur product. Which is fair if you're not earning an income off it, it's a really hard price to argue with.

Sure, I get there are needs that require a horsepower for computational work. But similarly there are many professionals who truly don’t need anything more powerful than the 13” entry-level MBP. Heck, even the 10.5” iPad Pro w/A10x chip, is more than enough and weighs all of 1lbs. A fully integrated keyboard won’t add much to that.

It’s not about Apple following what other manufacturers have done. Perhaps I’m just questioning Apple’s philosophy. Yes, they’ve maintained that independant devices is their vision.
But with rumours of iOS and MacOS merging, iPad’s positioned as a computer, and A-series chips performance, I can see a future where 2 become 1.

 

[New_Mac_Smell]

Perhaps not lifting trucks or any serious computing, but it clearly has her typing on a keyboard in laptop mode and later using the Pencil in tablet mode. Power is one issue, but you can’t deny it’s convenience factor.



Sure, I get there are needs that require a horsepower for computational work. But similarly there are many professionals who truly don’t need anything more powerful than the 13” entry-level MBP. Heck, even the 10.5” iPad Pro w/A10x chip, is more than enough and weighs all of 1lbs. A fully integrated keyboard won’t add much to that.

It’s not about Apple following what other manufacturers have done. Perhaps I’m just questioning Apple’s philosophy. Yes, they’ve maintained that independant devices is their vision.
But with rumours of iOS and MacOS merging, iPad’s positioned as a computer, and A-series chips performance, I can see a future where 2 become 1.

Of course many professionals do not need the horsepower of a high end CPU, the term professional is very vague in that anyone who makes a living from something.

However what I mean is by incorporating both devices, you end up with a reduced performance device for the same cost. I am sure they could do it all and make it powerful, but the entry level would be $2500, with the performance entry at closer to $4000. Which is a lot. Basically, you're moving the baseline up the price scale, which would mean lower end users paying more for less, and higher end users paying a lot more for stuff they don't need/want. Which would surely affect their customer base.

Personally, I will always prefer separate dedicated devices, that are optimised for their purpose. Rather than having to compromise for little benefit. As I said earlier they are great for enthusiast audiences, someone who wants a reasonable computer with these functions and doesn't want to pay a small fortune for it. But I'd rather have a high end laptop to do my work, with a high end tablet to do other stuff. And on the cost, just take a Cintiq HD and strap a MBP to it, you're essentially adding at least $1500 for the luxury.

As to other points. iOS and MacOS are built on the same kernel, they are the same OS but are developed differently for their use cases. A touchscreen interface is no benefit with a mouse input, and there's not enough real-estate on a phone to make use of a mouse. You basically end up with Windows 10, which love or hate it, Microsoft have and do invest a lot of R&D/Finances into making it work, and personally it doesn't work. So it's really not an easy task.

iPad's are computers, just as an iPhone is or even a smart-watch, just because it doesn't have a mouse and keyboard does not make it a computer. You can do a lot with an iPad which make them a great alternative if you don't need a full sized computer (Which increasingly is becoming less of a need). If you're just doing emails and web browsing, then they are great. If you are editing photos, light sketching, or even light music production, then again they are pretty good. If you are trying to model a 3D scene, adjust architectural drawings, or anything else high end, then they do not have the software or the user experience to make this productive.

SoC's have great performance in benchmarks, but real-world performance cannot match a dedicated CPU/RAM/GPU combination. Again maybe one day this will change, but I wouldn't hold my breath for at least another 10 years. They're a different class of CPU, one designed for less intensive tasks where efficiency and energy conservation is desired over performance and sustainability of power. There's also architecture and software emulation to take account of, but that is something that could/would happen if needed.

As I said the lower end tasks are increasingly available on more portable devices, which do not require massive performance peaks afforded by high end i7's. So it's great to offer things such as portability and longer battery life in sacrificing performance for those who don't need it. So I think we'll see more investment into things like this, with some experimentation in this area (Like the newer SoC Windows systems offering 20 hours battery life), but in all honesty it's probably just the latest fad to sell computers, 10 years ago it was the ultra portable Netbooks, 5 years ago it was the touchscreens, today it's the long battery life. Same for any technology industry really, 10 years ago TV's were all about 3D, 5 years ago all about being curved, today all about 4K HDR... They need to do something to make you want to upgrade your stuff!

So for what it's worth, I'd love to see Apple try a Surface Book style device, I think they're great and have potential. But as a consumer product in Apple's lineup, I don't see it working. The ability to have the best of both is a good one, but they'd need to hugely increase the battery life and hardware to make it work (Which as I said would push the price up too much), and then it'd need an overhaul of the interface. Maybe it'll happen one day, they probably already have several prototypes lying around after all.