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sunny5

macrumors 68000
Original poster
Jun 11, 2021
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Btw, Windows 11 supports both x86 and ARM just like Big Sur. There are quite exciting features such as ARM version of Windows 11, 64 bit x86 emulation, and ARM64EC.

But so far, Parallel is going to support Windows 11 through virtualization but I wonder if either MS or Apple is interested to support or bring Windows 11 to macOS through boot camp directly?

Apple said it's up to MS to support Windows 10 natively on M1 Mac but we dont know that yet. Yes, Mac does not support TPM so maybe it's impossible from the beginning. But who knows? The end user license might be another problem cause ARM on Windows 10 is still not available separately. But obviously, Windows 11 is not yet available so we probably need to wait.


Thoughts?
 

Nermal

Moderator
Staff member
Dec 7, 2002
20,548
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New Zealand
In terms of official support, we won't know unless Apple/MS announce something. As far as I'm aware, Parallels is the only solution known to work at this stage.
 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,030
18,612
I wonder if either MS or Apple is interested to support or bring Windows 11 to macOS through boot camp directly?

This will probably never happen. Microsoft would not only need to introduce significant changes to their kernel in order to support custom Apple hardware, but also write and maintain a complex driver stack. It makes no business sense. It’s much easier for MS to just sell you a license and let someone like Parallels figure out all the gory details.

I do hope though that MS will support the switchable memory model of Apple Silicon for the purpose of x86 emulation. That would improve stability when running x86 applications - previous x86 to ARM implementation could lead to subtle Emory bugs.




Apple said it's up to MS to support Windows 10 natively on M1 Mac but we dont know that yet.

They were talking about virtualization.
 
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sunny5

macrumors 68000
Original poster
Jun 11, 2021
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This will probably never happen. Microsoft would not only need to introduce significant changes to their kernel in order to support custom Apple hardware, but also write and maintain a complex driver stack. It makes no business sense. It’s much easier for MS to just sell you a license and let someone like Parallels figure out all the gory details.

I do hope though that MS will support the switchable memory model of Apple Silicon for the purpose of x86 emulation. That would improve stability when running x86 applications - previous x86 to ARM implementation could lead to subtle Emory bugs.
How so? macOS is taking 2nd place in OS market share which is 15%. Also, MS does not gain more profits from OS but their platform and service. Windows is their tool to expand their marketshare, nothing more. Windows take 16% from total revenue. Using virtual machine software is totally different and not all people like it.

They were talking about virtualization.
Federighi mentioned a native version, not virtualization.
 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,030
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How so? macOS is taking 2nd place in OS market share which is 15%. Also, MS does not gain more profits from OS but their platform and service. Windows is their tool to expand their marketshare, nothing more. Windows take 16% from total revenue. Using virtual machine software is totally different and not all people like it.

They get the same benefit from their OS running in the VM as from installations booting directly… and the first option is already there and working while the second would require very significant engineering and support effort. I just don’t see much incentive for them to do anything.

Consider, Microsoft never did anything to simplify running Windows under Bootcamp (and they could have cooperated with Apple to develop better drivers etc, they chose not to). Also, Wu does on ARM has been running in virtualization on M1 machines for almost half a year and Microsoft wouldn’t even acknowledge it by offering standalone ARM licenses. They just dont care about Macs running Windows abs rightfully so. Most we can hope is that they will offer an actual official license that your use in a VM.


Federighi mentioned a native version, not virtualization.

I am sure you are mistaken. I watched those interviews and they were very clear that they are not even considering booting third-party systems on Apple Silicon. The support is there, but it’s more for hackers.
 

sunny5

macrumors 68000
Original poster
Jun 11, 2021
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They get the same benefit from their OS running in the VM as from installations booting directly… and the first option is already there and working while the second would require very significant engineering and support effort. I just don’t see much incentive for them to do anything.

Consider, Microsoft never did anything to simplify running Windows under Bootcamp (and they could have cooperated with Apple to develop better drivers etc, they chose not to). Also, Wu does on ARM has been running in virtualization on M1 machines for almost half a year and Microsoft wouldn’t even acknowledge it by offering standalone ARM licenses. They just dont care about Macs running Windows abs rightfully so. Most we can hope is that they will offer an actual official license that your use in a VM.




I am sure you are mistaken. I watched those interviews and they were very clear that they are not even considering booting third-party systems on Apple Silicon. The support is there, but it’s more for hackers.
Same benefits but not as same as boot camp. That's very different. Official vs 3rd party.
 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,030
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Same benefits but not as same as boot camp. That's very different. Official vs 3rd party.

Exactly. Microsoft never once bothered to offer official support for Macs in the decade when offering such support would have been relatively easy. Now you expect them to offer official support when it’s extremely difficult. I wouldn’t describe this expectation as realistic.
 

Colstan

macrumors 6502
Jul 30, 2020
330
711
From an Apple Insider article from last year, according to sources who service Macs, only 2% of users have Boot Camp installed. That is down from 15% in 2010. So, Boot Camp has become much less relevant over time. Apple Insider did an informal poll among their own readership and found that 35% of respondents have Boot Camp installed. The tech enthusiasts who visit the MacRumors forum do not reflect the general public.

At this point, x86 Boot Camp installs are a rounding error on a spreadsheet, and I doubt Apple or Microsoft care about that tiny sliver of people who want to run ARM Windows through Boot Camp on Apple Silicon.

I'm not diminishing the desire to run Windows through Boot Camp. That's an entirely valid concern. I myself use Boot Camp on my Intel Mac mini to play an occasional Windows game. However, at some point it's time to let go or find alternatives. The switch to M1 is a hard break. I realize that there will still be people in five years that will be asking when Apple will bring Boot Camp back, but simply put, neither the Mac nor Apple need to have the Windows security blanket. It was a nice bonus with x86 and it gave comfort to switchers, even if they didn't actually use it, but its time is quickly coming to an end. It's better to look toward the future than to pine for a relic of the past.
 
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Toutou

macrumors 65816
Jan 6, 2015
1,075
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Prague, Czech Republic
I wonder if either MS or Apple is interested to support or bring Windows 11 to macOS through boot camp directly?
Neither, in my opinion. macOS is a well-supported, mature OS with a double-digit market share (in some markets) that goes nicely with your other iDevices and iCloud, and the ability to run Windows hasn't really been marketed as a killer feature lately. Apple does not need Windows on Macs anymore.

Windows is like Microsoft's ugly step-child they can't get rid of (because Windows is what most people know, use and depend on), but also can't extract much more money from (because OEM licenses are cheap and that's how people often acquire Windows), so it's currently this mostly-coasting-but-still-going vehicle for people and enterprises to have something to run their apps on, and for Microsoft to have something to develop, market and sell their services on.

But Microsoft can also sell their services to people running Macs, so they basically have no incentive to move you to Windows if you're on a Mac. You can work with MS Office on a Mac just fine. Use Outlook. Develop stuff in Visual Studio to run on their Azure cloud. Microsoft doesn't need to push Windows onto Macs anymore.

Nobody needs Windows on a Mac. And those who do are a niche and both Apple and Microsoft are too big to care. There's still money to be made off this, but it's just enough to feed the guys at Parallels and maybe a few others.
 

JMacHack

Suspended
Mar 16, 2017
1,965
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Windows is like Microsoft's ugly step-child they can't get rid of (because Windows is what most people know, use and depend on), but also can't extract much more money from (because OEM licenses are cheap and that's how people often acquire Windows), so it's currently this mostly-coasting-but-still-going vehicle for people and enterprises to have something to run their apps on, and for Microsoft to have something to develop, market and sell their services on.
I feel like Microsofts current direction with Windows is trying to stem the tide of Linux. Anecdotal, but in my experience there’s been a considerable rise in interest in using Linux over Windows. Looking at the rise of new system builders like System76 and Valves efforts with Proton.

I’m certain that the development of WSL was influenced by this. Not that WSL is bad (on the contrary, I’ve heard many say it’s good), but I don’t think Microsoft would have put forth the effort if they weren’t somewhat concerned about Linux.
 

tdar

macrumors 68020
Jun 23, 2003
2,089
2,508
Johns Creek Ga.
They get the same benefit from their OS running in the VM as from installations booting directly… and the first option is already there and working while the second would require very significant engineering and support effort. I just don’t see much incentive for them to do anything.

Consider, Microsoft never did anything to simplify running Windows under Bootcamp (and they could have cooperated with Apple to develop better drivers etc, they chose not to). Also, Wu does on ARM has been running in virtualization on M1 machines for almost half a year and Microsoft wouldn’t even acknowledge it by offering standalone ARM licenses. They just dont care about Macs running Windows abs rightfully so. Most we can hope is that they will offer an actual official license that your use in a VM.




I am sure you are mistaken. I watched those interviews and they were very clear that they are not even considering booting third-party systems on Apple Silicon. The support is there, but it’s more for hackers.
Craig was addressing a native version. What he said was that it was up to Microsoft if they want to do that. He added that there is no technical reason why they could not. But also pointed out that there is, as of now, no available version of Windows for ARM offered for any PC. Microsoft has all the resources they need to do this if they wish. I don't see them feeling the need. Virtual Machine under Parallels is so good on M1 (due to Apple's hardware virtualization layer in the M1) that there really is no need for them to do that work.

PS- I am replying to this post using Edge on Windows 11 running on my M1 mini under Parallels.
 
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leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,030
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Craig was addressing a native version. What he said was that it was up to Microsoft if they want to do that. He added that there is no technical reason why they could not.

This doesn’t make any sense. There are plenty of technical reasons why Microsoft can’t just offer native Windows on Apple Silicon - starting with the fact that Apple uses non-standard hardware, custom CPU protocols and a proprietary GPU that they definiert won’t hand out documentation for.

Check that interview again, you will find that they are talking about VMs.
 
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JPMLondon

macrumors newbie
Nov 27, 2020
24
13
My parallels Windows 10 ARM on M1 Mini just updated to Windows 11...

I thought this was not possible - at least currently?
 
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