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maflynn

macrumors Haswell
Original poster
May 3, 2009
73,483
43,408
I've been refraining lately from quickly updating my laptop due to some incompatibilities I've run into but with that said, I decided to update my Razer from 1904 to the October update 20h2 I actually had some Nvidia device driver issues with that came along with 2004, and I had to roll back to my default factory image, and then go forward to 1904.

With 20H2, things seem to be running better and there's small tweaks like the start menu being enhanced visually
What's new in Windows 10 version 20H2

This update appears to be mostly bug fixes and some under the hood changes, though what has changed is the system control panel Its now part of the UWP settings app and not a win32 app. Perhaps its part of the long and slow march to finally get rid of the control panel

Overall it seems to be a solid update but right now its a bit early to tell. I'll need to use it a bit more before offering my thumbs up or not.
 
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velocityg4

macrumors 604
Dec 19, 2004
7,329
4,717
Georgia
It's an OK update. I'm just curious what their big problem is with the Control Panel switch. When something is switched it doesn't duplicate all functions. With the more advanced functions still opening a traditional Control Panel window.
 

maflynn

macrumors Haswell
Original poster
May 3, 2009
73,483
43,408
With the more advanced functions still opening a traditional Control Panel window.
Mostly because they've yet to duplicate that advanced set of features to manage the Pc or server) So until they can replicate all of the features people and pros still want to use the traditional control panel
 

NewUsername

macrumors 6502a
Aug 20, 2019
581
1,271
I understand the importance of backwards compatibility, but as an occasional user of Windows, I find this so confusing. Settings and Control Panel; Edge and Internet Explorer; Windows Media Player, Groove Music, Movies & TV; and until recently, Windows OneNote and Office OneNote.

For sure, this is useful for power users. But it would be a lot easier if all these legacy options would be optional downloads, so the average consumer wouldn't have to bother with it.

(I'm not going to start even about 32-bit and 64-bit Windows.)
 
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Yebubbleman

macrumors 603
May 20, 2010
5,789
2,379
Los Angeles, CA
I've been refraining lately from quickly updating my laptop due to some incompatibilities I've run into but with that said, I decided to update my Razer from 1904 to the October update 20h2 I actually had some Nvidia device driver issues with that came along with 2004, and I had to roll back to my default factory image, and then go forward to 1904.

With 20H2, things seem to be running better and there's small tweaks like the start menu being enhanced visually
What's new in Windows 10 version 20H2

This update appears to be mostly bug fixes and some under the hood changes, though what has changed is the system control panel Its now part of the UWP settings app and not a win32 app. Perhaps its part of the long and slow march to finally get rid of the control panel

Overall it seems to be a solid update but right now its a bit early to tell. I'll need to use it a bit more before offering my thumbs up or not.

I have it on one of my PCs. I think it's stable enough for me to start replacing it on my others as my default Windows 10 version. I just haven't gotten around to it.

It's an OK update. I'm just curious what their big problem is with the Control Panel switch. When something is switched it doesn't duplicate all functions. With the more advanced functions still opening a traditional Control Panel window.

The transition is designed to not disturb older apps that still need Control Panel functionality. Microsoft has a WAY larger user-base and way larger app ecosystem than macOS will likely ever have at this point. So, it's gotta be done slowly and in phases.

That said, do a search for what you need in either one's search function and if it's in the other app, you're automatically redirected. It's initially confusing but, in practice, it's not all that bad.

I understand the importance of backwards compatibility, but as an occasional user of Windows, I find this so confusing. Settings and Control Panel; Edge and Internet Explorer; Windows Media Player, Groove Music, Movies & TV; and until recently, Windows OneNote and Office OneNote.
The two versions of OneNote, I'll totally grant you as being needless and needlessly confusing (especially since the Windows 10 supplied OneNote still doesn't hold a candle to the features provided by the Office supplied version of OneNote). But Edge and Internet Explorer is done for legacy websites (and, honestly, is only really necessary in business settings; Microsoft could've totally removed it from Windows 10 Home and made it exclusive to Windows 10 Pro and Enterprise and no one would have issues with it) as there are still plenty of them out there that HAVE to run in Internet Exploder. Many programs still have hooks in Windows Media Player and leverage it for embedded media functions in ways that won't be done with either Groove Music or the Movies & TV app (which honestly is Apples and Oranges compared to Windows Media Player).

These things are not immediately obvious, but there are reasons for them existing that way that DO make sense at the end of the day, despite entailing initial confusion.

For sure, this is useful for power users. But it would be a lot easier if all these legacy options would be optional downloads, so the average consumer wouldn't have to bother with it.
Again, I'll agree with you as far as Internet Exploder is concerned. Also, that the Windows 10 OneNote needs to start adopting features from its Office counterpart in order to justify itself. But everything else makes perfect sense, even for standard users. Would you rather not have Windows Media Player and then have to install it on demand when you have to run a training app that leverages it? Or just have it there so you don't have to even think about it?

(I'm not going to start even about 32-bit and 64-bit Windows.)

So, as far as Windows 10 is concerned, most consumer grade systems only have driver support for the 64-bit version of Windows 10. Same goes for hardware components for desktop PCs that one would build themselves.

Unless you're going with a business class system (think something like a Dell Latitude/OptiPlex/Precision, an HP Elite/Z system, or any Lenovo Think branded systems), you shouldn't even be running 32-bit Windows 10 because drivers for at least most of your hardware components won't exist. Those business class systems are an exception, but only because the average consumer really doesn't need 32-bit Windows 10 for anything. That's how 32-bit x86 Windows is slowly being phased out in favor of 64-bit x86/x64/x86-64/AMD64/whateveryouwanttocallit Windows.

Admittedly, in the Windows 8.1 and earlier days, this was much sillier. But now, this is becoming a non-issue. I would imagine that at the one of the next few LTSC release intervals, Microsoft will probably declare that corresponding version of 32-bit x86 Windows to be the last one and give it a long period of extended support while otherwise continuing on with development of the 64-bit versions.

Windows Server has been exclusively 64-bit since Windows Server 2008 R2 (the contemporary Server release to Windows 7) if not earlier.

No question, its long over due and should have been done even before windows 10 was rolled out. I give apple a lot of credit for UI/UX consistancy.

Windows is a much larger OS with many more user-facing UI elements as a result. That makes it much easier for Apple to wholesale update the UI of their OSes (though they have been known to leave a few things behind from time to time).

That said, nixing the Control Panel entirely in favor of the Settings app really can't be done overnight as the number of apps that it would break that are mission critical for businesses would be way larger than that of any change that Apple has ever made for macOS, including the current Apple Silicon transition (as well as the immediately preceding push to deprecate 32-bit Intel app support).

It HAS to be done in phases. But it's definitely happening more and more. The removal of the "System" page in Control Panel is a (I'd argue mostly symbolic) change towards that. We're going to slowly see more and more of that happen over time. But, in the meantime, the idea is that if you need a function that's in one app, but not the other, redirection between the two is still pretty seamless, even if it is confusing initially.
 
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sracer

macrumors G4
Apr 9, 2010
10,287
13,021
where hip is spoken
Windows is a much larger OS with many more user-facing UI elements as a result. That makes it much easier for Apple to wholesale update the UI of their OSes (though they have been known to leave a few things behind from time to time).

That said, nixing the Control Panel entirely in favor of the Settings app really can't be done overnight as the number of apps that it would break that are mission critical for businesses would be way larger than that of any change that Apple has ever made for macOS, including the current Apple Silicon transition (as well as the immediately preceding push to deprecate 32-bit Intel app support).

It HAS to be done in phases. But it's definitely happening more and more. The removal of the "System" page in Control Panel is a (I'd argue mostly symbolic) change towards that. We're going to slowly see more and more of that happen over time. But, in the meantime, the idea is that if you need a function that's in one app, but not the other, redirection between the two is still pretty seamless, even if it is confusing initially.
There's a difference between doing it in phases and slow-walking it over. Windows 8.0 was originally released in August 2012... that's over 8 years ago. That is plenty of time to "phase in" a conversion over to the new UI paradigm.

It seems to me that Microsoft doesn't have a plan that they have confidence in with regard to the UI. It's almost as if they dip their toe in with a change and gauge user reactions and based on that response, determine what the next step is. Just look at how they've handled the Start button/menu changes over the years.

The Windows UI has been a mess since the introduction of Windows 8. I've recently been spending some extended screen time with my ThinkPad X230 running Windows 7 (with classic theme activate). Clean, crisp, good contrast, high density information presentation.

It's taken a while, but Win 10 has grown on me (as I've been able to take more control over it). The UI is the only thing about Windows 10 that I don't have control over and the final hurdle.
 
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maflynn

macrumors Haswell
Original poster
May 3, 2009
73,483
43,408
It seems to me that Microsoft doesn't have a plan that they have confidence in with regard to the UI.
In all honesty, I don't think they have a plan, I think their culture is such that they focus on bug fixes and rolling out new features. There's no incentive to go back and fix UI items or make the system more consistent with the UX.
 

sracer

macrumors G4
Apr 9, 2010
10,287
13,021
where hip is spoken
In all honesty, I don't think they have a plan, I think their culture is such that they focus on bug fixes and rolling out new features. There's no incentive to go back and fix UI items or make the system more consistent with the UX.
Fair enough. But they DID have a plan to do away with the Start menu, but then brought it back in some half-baked fashion.
 

TomOSeven

Suspended
Jul 4, 2017
571
699
I'm so petty, but my biggest annoyance is that the weather app now has these "realistic" backgrounds in the thumb nails and it's way harder to read the actual weather information.
 

mmomega

macrumors demi-god
Dec 30, 2009
3,879
2,089
DFW, TX
I have 50 + clients that connect to a domain server. So no one has personal Microsoft accounts logged in. Microsoft Store is disabled because bored people just want to browse and try to install things then give justification on how important syncing their fitbit at work is.... No.
Everyone gets a username and create their own password then they have personal shared drives, etc.
No problem.

Until they make an app like CALCULATOR that required a Microsoft account to be able to open.

I have about 20 people that daily use the calculator app built in to Windows since who knows when that all of a sudden after an update can not open Calculator. Or notepad. OR any BUILT-IN Windows 10apps. Everything needed to connect to a Microsoft account in the Microsoft Store to check if it was ok to open.

Something little like this was such a PITA.
First was just figuring out why calculator wouldn't open on one persons computer. Then someone else complains...Then 5 people. And the app didn't mention any of this, it just wouldn't open.

Still Windows 10 is 'better' than whatever Windows 8 was trying to be.

Once they completely remove control panel, device manager, etc, old school controls, I'll be ready to hang it up and let some fresh young buck come in to handle it.
 

Serban55

Suspended
Oct 18, 2020
2,153
4,343
Still Windows 10 is 'better' than whatever Windows 8 was trying to be.
it should be since its released 5+ years ago....updates after updates....and still i have few issues but i can managed them
But again, windows Xp and windows 7 was kind of better without having 5+ years of updates
Its clear Bill Gates was all about windows and the new CEO is all about cloud services
 

ian87w

macrumors G3
Feb 22, 2020
8,704
12,636
Indonesia
I had it installed on my laptop not too long ago. I don't really notice any significant changes, other than the control panel thing. Imo that's a good step forward. Control Panel, despite its critical importance, ruins the whole Windows Aesthetics since Windows 8.
 

ian87w

macrumors G3
Feb 22, 2020
8,704
12,636
Indonesia
it should be since its released 5+ years ago....updates after updates....and still i have few issues but i can managed them
But again, windows Xp and windows 7 was kind of better without having 5+ years of updates
Its clear Bill Gates was all about windows and the new CEO is all about cloud services
I would disagree. WinXP was quite bad until SP2. During the early days of XP, many would rather stick with win2k. Windows 7 was only "good" because of Vista's marketing failure (which was not as bad as people made it out to be). In reality, Windows 10, and even Windows 8, is much better than Windows 7/XP.

Too much credit is given to Gates. Satya is a lot better CEO, making Microsoft more open, focussed, and platform agnostic than ever.
 
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maflynn

macrumors Haswell
Original poster
May 3, 2009
73,483
43,408
Its clear Bill Gates was all about windows and the new CEO is all about cloud services
Apples and oranges, its like saying Steve Jobs was all about Macintoshes and Tim Cook is all about music/tv services.

When Bill gates was running MS, the computer industry was a lot less mature and growth was meteoric, i.e., each upgrade was significantly huge and major reasons to upgrade. When Nadella took over, MS was not growing, its products were stagnant.

Windows is still a major part of Microsoft, just as Macs are to Apple, but they're not the only revenue stream, and both products are very mature so feature wise there can only be small improvements (especially compared to the early days). Saying that, makes the lack of consistency in the UI and UX even more galling imo.

Unlike the April update, I'm finding 20H2 to be a lot more solid and less problematic. As I mentioned in my OP, I had video driver issues that were included in 1909 that caused problems but there were some other niggling headaches nothing major just kind of annoyances. So far I've not found anything that annoys me
 
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mmomega

macrumors demi-god
Dec 30, 2009
3,879
2,089
DFW, TX
it should be since its released 5+ years ago....updates after updates....and still i have few issues but i can managed them
But again, windows Xp and windows 7 was kind of better without having 5+ years of updates
Its clear Bill Gates was all about windows and the new CEO is all about cloud services
Bill Gates was about money.
Satya Nadella is about money.

Same monster. The monster is just feeding itself in a different way.

A company with a board of directors and shareholders cares when profits slide, not quality. They will only care about quality when quality affects profits. If profits are through the roof with minimal quality assurance, well, keep doing that until profits begin changing.
 
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mmomega

macrumors demi-god
Dec 30, 2009
3,879
2,089
DFW, TX
I got news for you.

Tim Cook is about the money.
The very next line I stated that was left out of the quote would apply to a Tim Cook as well.

Same monster, feeding itself in a different way.

Then the line after that applies as well to Tim. He is currently the head of a company with a board of directors and shareholders. They are about the profits. Same as the man that came before Tim. And the person that will come after Tim.
 
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maflynn

macrumors Haswell
Original poster
May 3, 2009
73,483
43,408
The very next line I stated that was left out of the quote would apply to a Tim Cook as well.
I'm sure but I was addressing the point that you were focusing only on Gates and Nadella's attention to the bottom line and I wanted to point out that Tim Cook is no different.
 

mmomega

macrumors demi-god
Dec 30, 2009
3,879
2,089
DFW, TX
I'm sure but I was addressing the point that you were focusing only on Gates and Nadella's attention to the bottom line and I wanted to point out that Tim Cook is no different.
It is a Windows discussion thread.

I did not see the reason to point out Elon or Bezos, Zuckerburg, the WalMart family, or any other leader of a multimillion to billion or even trillion dollar corporation with the focus of the topic being about Windows in the alternative to Mac section.
 

maflynn

macrumors Haswell
Original poster
May 3, 2009
73,483
43,408
You don't see Microsoft installing solar panels to help themselves make more money, do you?

First let me say I'm not a Microsoft fanboy, they're not perfect and their OS is not either, but what I find is some folks here (I'm not saying you) tend to put on a holier then thou attitude and make pronouncements about how bad MS can be (and they can be), but yet ignore the very same thing (or nearly the same thing) that Apple does.

With that said, Yes, MS is moving in the same direction carbon wise as Apple - Microsoft will be carbon negative by 2030
I will also say that its my belief and opinion that Apple's eco-stance is more marketing then sincere concern: The model for recycling our old smartphones is actually causing massive pollution

But we're venturing away from the topic of 20H2, and back on topic, I'm enjoying the small but nice features. I know someone complained about the weather tile now showing the a weather background, I'm not finding it distracting Also the background color of the tiles is nice, and the small but polished look of highlighting apps as I did with acrobat. Now longer do you see the square color around the icon


1608199943026.png
 
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bousozoku

Moderator emeritus
Jun 25, 2002
15,727
1,897
Lard
First let me say I'm not a Microsoft fanboy, they're not perfect and their OS is not either, but what I find is some folks here (I'm not saying you) tend to put on a holier then thou attitude and make pronouncements about how bad MS can be (and they can be), but yet ignore the very same thing (or nearly the same thing) that Apple does.

With that said, Yes, MS is moving in the same direction carbon wise as Apple - Microsoft will be carbon negative by 2030
I will also say that its my belief and opinion that Apple's eco-stance is more marketing then sincere concern: The model for recycling our old smartphones is actually causing massive pollution

But we're venturing away from the topic of 20H2, and back on topic, I'm enjoying the small but nice features. I know someone complained about the weather tile now showing the a weather background, I'm not finding it distracting Also the background color of the tiles is nice, and the small but polished look of highlighting apps as I did with acrobat. Now longer do you see the square color around the icon


View attachment 1696037
I'm still recovering from several Windows 10 updates that deleted everything, but I'm on 2004 now. I'm just hesitant to update quickly. The 1909 update left me in-between 1903 and 1909. The initial 2004 update did something similar.

I would think that Microsoft would be praised, if they would just bring all of their user interfaces to one recent year's interface, instead of four of them.

holier than thou*

I'm not saying that Apple is all light and no darkness, but Microsoft for the longest time was all darkness.
 
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