Windows 8: Is It A Disaster?

[blackhand1001]

I like Windows 8 but feel its more of a Windows 7 skin for tablet devices, and brings very little to the general desktop & laptop devices. In fact in those instances, some of it's mechanics are a little more cumbersome to quickly adjust.

Dragging with a mouse, items which are clearly meant to be dragged directly via touch just somehow feels wrong / alien.

Also simple things like powering down your machine now takes longer (having to sign out and then press power rather than just hit start and power).


Windows 8 is not a VISTA as it's built on a more solid Windows 7 foundation, but it certainly is going to be VERY divisive.

For many desktop and laptop owners, I imagine there will come a point where they may prefer to turn the new windows shell off and return to more familiar territory albeit with access to marketplace and such, however this is not an option with Windows 8 currently...

Just wanna clear this up that the foundation is from Vista. Windows 7 is 99% the same for the most part. Contrary to what most people think Vista was a large step in the right direction. The problem was that it had a new driver module and manufacturers lagged behind in getting drivers made. After a few months these issues were fixed but the damage was done and it got a bad reputation hence why windows 7 came so quickly afterwards. Windows 7 used the same driver module which is why it already had a mature driver pool. Another thing that microsoft did later on in vista and during windows 7 was make stricter requirement on how much bloatware was preinstalled on certified machines.

 

[colour]

I really really love the UI of metro and the "tiles" UI they have on windows phones. I like the simplicity of it and how bold and different it is, in saying this its a bold move by windows and I think once more work is done on the windows tablets we will see more of a synchronization of their products.

Like someone said it is more of a touch interface, I personally love the UI used on the new windows phones and am going to try out metro this week. But, I don't know if it will be as successful as apples iOS / Mountain Lion although I can see that they are trying to make it much more uniform apple has.

 

[hakuryuu]

Windows 8 is awful for enterprise. We've been evaluating off and on and it just isn't going to work. Training users on how to use it is a terrifying prospect. We'll probably have a small number of non iPad tablets running it eventually, but none of our engineering software will run well on the hardware and I don't know how well it will handle the interface. The ARM devices are right out due to no AD management. Much remains to be seen.

Windows 7 and Linux will continue to be the bulk of our computing (largely engineering) with OSX and a few hundred iPads doing the rest.

At home I think Windows 8 will be a great HTPC solution for those that need more than what the AppleTV/Roku provide. But for general purpose computing it just appears to be a disaster. Again on non touch devices it just has no reason to exist.

Long run I do actually see a use for what Microsoft is doing and I expect that the same will happen to OSX. Eventually most things will be on a tablet that will dock (maybe with external graphics) for when you need to do desktop work/gaming. You'll switch from a touch focused GUI to a desktop GUI based on whether docked or not.

 

[whiteonline]

Interesting perspective. If this is the case, and Windows 7 is the new XP, then M$ should say so. Will Win 7 still have DirectX support? Are they going to continue to improve it for powerusers? That's the issue.

I'm speaking in generalization regarding Windows 7 being the new XP of the enterprise. Of course, MS is not going to announce they don't expect enterprises to deploy Windows 8 -- it's just something they accept as they chase money elsewhere. They will be held by their customers to support 7 long term just like XP.

As far as improvements? No. Just fixes for security and bugs.

 

[Renzatic]

The question has nothing to do with Apple fanboyism. To the contrary, some of us want a robust Windows 8. As I initially said, PC hardware has gotten pretty good of late, and frankly is now pretty far ahead of the Mac Pro line. If M$ can release a good OS, I see it driving more sales. Good for them.

But I hate this desktop "app"-ification. I don't want ios on my Mac Pro (or even iMac). I don't want apps. I don't want pinned screens. Give me some damn programs and a free flow desktop.

Also, give us some reasonably priced hardware and software where I can swap out and upgrade parts (CPU, GPU, RAM, SSD), update the latest drivers, and tweak the system as I see fit. Windows 7 and Lion are decent. But don't dumb it down further, sick of this lowest common denominator crap.

See, it's not really...er...appifying the desktop. Metro and the bog standards Windows desktop are kept separate, with the new Start menu being the equal opportunity interface between the two. You don't have to use the Metro apps if you don't want to. In fact, you can wipe them all off your comp completely if you feel the need to do so.

This is the way I see Windows 8.

You've got the desktop, which is actually a nice, albeit incremental improvement over Windows 7. It's faster, snappier, has a (finally) halfway decent file transfer setup, and a really nifty task manager. If you could give less of a crap about the apps, then don't bother with them.

The new Start menu, which is the biggest change as far as desktop usage goes, is only superficially different from the old one. I find it to be a huge improvement, personally. You can pin far more apps, bookmarks, etc. to it, while keeping things clean and easy to follow. File searching? Same situation. More onscreen, easier to follow. Once I got used to it, I couldn't imagine myself going back to the old jankity-ass pop-up Start menu. It's so much more cramped and difficult to navigate in comparison.

Then you've got the fullscreen Metro apps. See, I just think of it less about OMG TABLET ON DESKTOP WINDOWS RUINED FOREVER, and more about as having access to your apps no matter which platform you're on. If you're on your desktop/laptop, and want to goof around in one of your tablet based apps, it's readily available. Like, say you want to organize your WindowsRT calendar events from the desktop. You can launch the app from your desktop, move everything around, add a few entries here and there, and watch the changes you make there sync to the tablet.

So is it perfect in every conceivable way? Hardly. Even in the Release Preview, it's still sporting a few weird issues that arise from having two separate program environments living in the same space. It sometimes feels a little goofy and counter-intuitive. But it's most definitely not the end of the world scenario everyone is making it out to be.

 

[Nostromo]

I like the Metro UI and I'm glad Microsoft is trying to reinvent the operating system. However, IMO it just doesn't work on a desktop PC that's not touch enabled.

It's very clunky with the mouse and keyboard,

I'm using a graphics tablet, where you use a pen instead of a mouse.

It's very similar to tapping with your fingers, only you are more precise.

This could lead to the beginning of the end of the mouse.

For paginating, one can use a trackball, or just drag and drop.

In regards to the quoted article, you can't judge Windows 8 after reading it -no facts, just opinion.

Yes, that article was that bad. And it might even put a risk to the whole future writing career of its author.

See... it's that easy to play Cassandra.

 

[roadbloc]

People moan about how Windows 8 is too tablet-y, but tbh, it is only tablet orientated when you use Windows 8 apps. Ignore them and it is the same desktop experience again with a metro-esske Start Menu.

I don't see what all of the complaining is about to be honest.

 

[DingleButt]

See, it's not really...er...appifying the desktop. Metro and the bog standards Windows desktop are kept separate, with the new Start menu being the equal opportunity interface between the two. You don't have to use the Metro apps if you don't want to. In fact, you can wipe them all off your comp completely if you feel the need to do so.

This is the way I see Windows 8.

You've got the desktop, which is actually a nice, albeit incremental improvement over Windows 7. It's faster, snappier, has a (finally) halfway decent file transfer setup, and a really nifty task manager. If you could give less of a crap about the apps, then don't bother with them.

The new Start menu, which is the biggest change as far as desktop usage goes, is only superficially different from the old one. I find it to be a huge improvement, personally. You can pin far more apps, bookmarks, etc. to it, while keeping things clean and easy to follow. File searching? Same situation. More onscreen, easier to follow. Once I got used to it, I couldn't imagine myself going back to the old jankity-ass pop-up Start menu. It's so much more cramped and difficult to navigate in comparison.

Then you've got the fullscreen Metro apps. See, I just think of it less about OMG TABLET ON DESKTOP WINDOWS RUINED FOREVER, and more about as having access to your apps no matter which platform you're on. If you're on your desktop/laptop, and want to goof around in one of your tablet based apps, it's readily available. Like, say you want to organize your WindowsRT calendar events from the desktop. You can launch the app from your desktop, move everything around, add a few entries here and there, and watch the changes you make there sync to the tablet.

So is it perfect in every conceivable way? Hardly. Even in the Release Preview, it's still sporting a few weird issues that arise from having two separate program environments living in the same space. It sometimes feels a little goofy and counter-intuitive. But it's most definitely not the end of the world scenario everyone is making it out to be.

Said perfectly

 

[Dr McKay]

Ironically for me, that's the aspect of Windows 8 I strongly dislike. Preferring a clean desktop devoid of any icons or tiles is what I like.

This is why I love Windows 8 in a large respect, I too love a clean desktop, however I do pin my favourite apps to the taskbar. I really don't like having icons on my desktop. Now with Windows 8 I can pin apps that I use often enough to pin, but not often enough that they would be pinned to the taskbar. I think of it like OS X's Launch Pad.

Heres my desktop.

 

[MRU]

I just went back to 7, a number of my Applications had issues with 8, so I reverted. Will upgrade once more closer to its release when all my software has updates to fully support the new OS.

 

[Grannyville7989]

I just went back to 7, a number of my Applications had issues with 8, so I reverted. Will upgrade once more closer to its release when all my software has updates to fully support the new OS.

What kind of apps were you have issues with? I had problems with certain games not starting up correctly or crashing on the Developer Preview and Consumer Preview. So far everything seems to be working fine on the Release Review for me

 

[dusk007]

I agree with Renzatic there is a lot of complaining but it is actually really good.

Even working in Metro desktop style with two monitors is pretty decent. Usually you don't want to use more than 4 Windows in front at any time anyway. Now you can easily split a screen in half. Quite useful for some stuff with all the 16:9 monitors. The only thing that is missing is a status bar with clock and stuff. There should be some small thin bar in a desktop OS with the more than big enough screens. Fullscreen is for small Displays or TVs. And you can still work all in standard Windows desktop they even finally offer a proper multi display task-bar.

I don't see anything significantly wrong but lots of possibilities. (Convertibles, Sync work on Tablet, Desktop, Notebook, TV) Many improvements that matter rather than like Lion or Mountain Lion with lots of worse battery life and mostly useless stuff. It will be a great OS and there is way too much unnecessary complaining about stuff MS wants people to test in the new OS but they don't have to use it.

 

[Velin]

Well these are some interesting points on Win 8. Seems opinion is pretty evenly divided here and elsewhere. Users seem to love it or hate it.

 

[thekev]

Just wanna clear this up that the foundation is from Vista. Windows 7 is 99% the same for the most part. Contrary to what most people think Vista was a large step in the right direction. The problem was that it had a new driver module and manufacturers lagged behind in getting drivers made. After a few months these issues were fixed but the damage was done and it got a bad reputation hence why windows 7 came so quickly afterwards. Windows 7 used the same driver module which is why it already had a mature driver pool. Another thing that microsoft did later on in vista and during windows 7 was make stricter requirement on how much bloatware was preinstalled on certified machines.

You apparently know way more on the subject than me. Less bloatware is great though. Bloatware to a large degree is there to influence you to buy more stuff. I wonder if MS had to negotiate their oem pricing to get this through.

I'm using a graphics tablet, where you use a pen instead of a mouse.

It's very similar to tapping with your fingers, only you are more precise.

This could lead to the beginning of the end of the mouse.

For paginating, one can use a trackball, or just drag and drop.

In regards to the quoted article, you can't judge Windows 8 after reading it -no facts, just opinion.

Yes, that article was that bad. And it might even put a risk to the whole future writing career of its author.

See... it's that easy to play Cassandra.

I definitely don't see graphics pens going away. Having a fine tipped tool like that is quite advantageous. My fingers are pretty normal in size, yet a finger tip covers a much wider area. Graphics tablets are a smaller market either way. Wacom has basically owned the market for many years. While that could change, I don't think it will be replaced by finger painting anytime soon. The only thing I dislike is that their quality and designs have been dropping off since the Intuos3. The new features don't matter much, and the sense of control improves very little. I just buy a new one when I break the old one (this time it's a fraying usb cord). I test them by drawing an rendering a sketch on paper, then doing the same thing in PS. I basically tune the settings to feel as similar as possible.

I just went back to 7, a number of my Applications had issues with 8, so I reverted. Will upgrade once more closer to its release when all my software has updates to fully support the new OS.

I'm wondering how it will shape up. I doubt I'll go back to Windows after so long, but OSX has been getting a little bleh in terms of performance. With Windows I just keep a known good configuration on backup. If something goes weird with behavior, I restore the disk overnight. Data is on other drives. I do the same thing with OSX, so it's not really any different.

 

[KevinN206]

Maybe it's me, but I think having Windows 8 in the business is actually a *good* thing in the long run. I can see a company can easily disable the Windows Store and disable ALL of the Metro app and pin ONLY internal business-related programs such as Words, Excel, PowerPoint, Outlook, and any other internal software. In fact, they can then group each of the programs according to their function (Office, inventory, statistic, etc...).

Users now don't have to dig through the long list of programs in the tiny space of the old start menu. Instead, everything is big and clearly visible and categorized at all time. The only time they'll see the metro start screen is when they need to launch a program, so their productivity is not hindered. If Metro apps is NOT used at all, then all the training that's need is simply the bottom-left corner and the "Desktop" tile. Even the Desktop tile might not be needed. Or at the worst-case, use the "Flag" key to get out from the menu.

Nevertheless, I don't see much uptake in Windows 8 for businesses not so much because of the new Start Screen but because it's a NEW version of Windows. Why use something that's not been tested while Windows 7 has been available for 3 years?

 

[MRU]

What kind of apps were you have issues with? I had problems with certain games not starting up correctly or crashing on the Developer Preview and Consumer Preview. So far everything seems to be working fine on the Release Review for me

Well my cyberlink powerdvd blu-ray suite just crashes, and Kingdoms of Amalur wouldn't work for me at all, and Sims : Medieval & Rage would crash randomly. The games that did work had noticeably poorer frame-rates.

Not a total disaster but as I only use my Bootcamp partition for the small bit of pc gaming, and watching the odd blu-ray, those few things crashing were my prime activities so that's why I reverted.

 

[GMTGuy]

I think Microsoft removing the start menu is a mistake, there's no logical reason for that other than they're trying to force the hand. In terms of metros apps they're safer than regular desktop apps because they have file/networking restrictions and hence won't be good for some apps(like torrent programs or similar) so one can't expect everything to be ported over. I also don't like the fact Microsoft isn't giving much love to Desktop apps in their store, I read they at first wouldn't allow them and now they just allow links to them. Microsoft is too focused on markets they barely have a footing in yet are ignoring the one they have a monopoly in...contrary to popular belief laptops are still selling like hot cakes, and I don't see tablets nor mobile replacing them anytime soon, if ever. I also don't like the secure boot stuff which is locking Linux out of newer computers that naturally come with win8. Fedora has bought a license to allow you to install but others you have to disable the secure boot to get them on there. For ARM versions you won't be able to disable secure boot.

 

[TSE]

Could Microsoft be possibly be going back to the separate Consumer - Professional operating system model?

I personally like Windows 8, but I can see why many people don't like it. It boots up a lot faster, uses a lot less RAM, takes up a lot less space, looks a lot cleaner, etc.

 

[Tmelon]

I'm not going to lie; the metro apps do look nice. My issue with them is the poor integration with the non-metro apps as well as the difficulty of using them with a mouse and keyboard as opposed to a touchscreen.

Like many have said since the early Developer Preview, it's nice for a tablet, but it'll be a pain to use with a mouse. Maybe this could be improved if they added some trackpad gestures similar to what Apple has done in Lion and Mountain Lion.

I wouldn't say it's a disaster, but power users will look at these fullscreen metro apps as a joke.

 

[throAU]

I agree with him.

there is no way in hell this is hitting our network any time soon.

There are no benefits what so ever for enterprise, but a massive re-training/re-learning/support cost if we were to roll it out.

Metro offers NOTHING, we have no metro apps, the apps we do have will run in the legacy desktop, which simply doesn't work as well as Windows 7.

Sure the system requirements are slightly lower and it is more responsive, but the problem is that any PC we purchased in the past 5 years is more than capable of running Windows 7 just fine - and any PCs over 3 years old we have here have already been scrapped or will be scrapped shortly for the upgrade to 7 (which we're 60% through).

Windows 8 simply will not go anywhere in the enterprise - there's no way any sane person would roll it out without their end users having had several years of it at home first.


And yes, both 7 and 8 are mostly Vista. Vista was a big step that needed to be made, and pain that needed to happen. Business skipped it anyway, and waited for 7, by which point the applications had caught up.

8 is a similar pain level (well, worse due to teh UI changes), but zero benefit.


edit:
I'm an enterprise network admin (Windows/vSphere/Cisco/Unix) and have been doing this stuff for the past 18 years. I've never seen such an epic failure in the making.

All windows 8 will do is push people to upgrade to 7 while it is available, so they have a supported platform post 2012.

 

[throAU]

Dvorak is a giant fossilized douchebag -- typical opposition to change..

be that as it may, this time, he's right.

Even a broken clock is right twice per day.

if we have to go through the level of re-training that Windows 8 requires, and develop new apps in web standard technologies - here's a big hint to microsoft: we will just up and change camps.

I swear, putting our end users in front of KDE or Gnome would be far less of a re-training exercise, and those are free.

Plus, once you know how to use one of those environments they are MORE POWERFUL than Windows. Metro? its crippled. Try to stack 2 metro apps side by side like you can with 7 to copy/paste between them.

Try to do something in an application whilst browsing a howto in (Metro) IE. It doesn't work.

I can't believe that even basic usability testing such as this slipped through the cracks. A tablet UI is no fit for a desktop.

People moan about how Windows 8 is too tablet-y, but tbh, it is only tablet orientated when you use Windows 8 apps. Ignore them and it is the same desktop experience again with a metro-esske Start Menu.

I don't see what all of the complaining is about to be honest.

In that case, why bother using Windows 8? The new shiny start menu blocks your entire screen so you are distracted from whatever you were doing.

Never mind attempting to do remote support via remote desktop and trying to hit crappy little hitboxes in the edge of your windows and waiting for an entire screen repaint over some crappy satellite connection for remote support.

 

[Renzatic]

I swear, putting our end users in front of KDE or Gnome would be far less of a re-training exercise, and those are free.

I hate Metro and it's full screen apps so much, I'm gonna switch to Gnome 3...which is a desktop environment with an emphasis on displaying apps full screen.

WELL I'M JUST SCREWED, AIN'T I?


Metro isn't that hard to learn, and it won't require huge amounts of training to get people used to it. A little bit? Yeah. A lot? No. It's ultimately just a few extra interface features that look different, but act about the same.

I'll admit that when I first tried out Windows 8 I hate it. Thought all the new wooshes, blurgles, and whatnot sucked a ton of crap. Hell, I'm pretty sure I even posted a blurb on this board about how disappointed I was. But then I figured I'd give it a second chance. See if I could grow to at least tolerate it. Turns out after a day of using it, I realized that, at worst, most things weren't much different than they were before, and eventually started sorta liking it for the improvements it offered.

I think the thing that scares people the most about Windows 8 is that WinRT is the new Windows API, set to replace the old tried and true Win32 standard. WinRT, at least as of right now, is all about full screen. That's all well and good for stuff like Modo, Blender, Zbrush, and Photoshop. I run those full screen anyway, and dancing between them would be just as easy in Metro as it currently is on the desktop.

But what about when I'm writing something in Word? Like, say I'm writing a tutorial. I'll have whatever program I'm writing a tut on open, Photoshop open, a folder to save my pics I cull from it open, and have Word and Chrome open practically side by side overlapping each other. That works great on a desktop. It's what they were designed to do. But in Metro, it would SUCK. It'd take me at least twice as long to jump between apps as it would just having them all open on my desktop.

So no, Metro as it currently stands isn't a perfect replacement for the desktop. But Windows 8 isn't all Metro. It's Windows with the added option of launching tablet apps. If you're on a tablet, you'll use Metro more. On a more traditional computer, you'll use the desktop more. You're able to dip in and out of both of them at will. No matter what platform you're on, no matter the API, all your stuff is there for you if you need it.

Does it work well? Better than Apple's current setup? Hell if I know. We'll all have to see where the MS tablet scene is in a couple of years before we know that. But, once again, despite all the wailing and gnashing of teeth, it isn't nearly as terrible as it's made out to be. When it comes right down to it, Windows 8 is Windows with extra Metro stuff for those who want to use it.

 

[throAU]

Fact remains: if you want to run tablet apps... run them on a tablet?

In the market the windows 8 Metro desktop is competing, it is a non-starter. it loses functionality, offers negligble performance improvement (and hardware is so cheap these days it doesn't even matter for 99.99% of users) and its a paid upgrade. And if you're not running metro, then why bother with 8?

Hell, it isn't even going to be a paid upgrade for us (on software enterprise agreement with MS - can run any MS desktop OS we like, and it is simply counted as 1 license for desktop at the end of the year - we can upgrade to it FREE) and we're still not touching it.

And yes, i've used it and tried to like it.

The only good thing is the application sandboxing, its a damn shame we won't have that on Win7, but can kinda get around it with App-V...

As to re-training - even if it is say, 30 minutes over the course of a few helpdesk incidents, multiply that by 1000 users (which is what we are likely to have here by the end of the year) and you've wasted 13 man-weeks of support time. That is roughly 2 full time support staff doing 8 hr days, 5 days a week, for a year - once holidays and weekends are taken into account.

Just on Windows 8 re-training issues...

We currently manage those users (including all servers and network switching/routing/VM stuff in house) with 5 support staff.



edit:
My viewpoint is skewed from the point of view of the enterprise, because that's the only place I care about Windows 8. Yes I'll end up running it at home no doubt, as most of my gripes about it do not apply there. But for business, it is a disaster.

 

[Renzatic]

edit:
My viewpoint is skewed from the point of view of the enterprise, because that's the only place I care about Windows 8. Yes I'll end up running it at home no doubt, as most of my gripes about it do not apply there. But for business, it is a disaster.

I was going to write up a long reply, but...hey...Ars Technica went ahead and did it for me.

In short, I sort of agree with you. While I don't think it'd be an absolute disaster for enterprise, it doesn't offer enough over Windows 7 to convince businesses to upgrade to it when they're only just now starting to roll out 7 en masse.

Truth be told, Windows 8 is a guinea pig release. It's a transitional, foot in the door OS, much like Vista was between XP and 7, save this time it's more about big interface changes rather than sweeping under the hood improvements. It's not really an OS for enterprise.

 

[erickrfelix]

Apple Wireless Keyboard working with W8?

Hello there,
Someone would know tell me if apple wireless keyboard would be able for work with W8?
What can I do for it?
Thanks! Erick