Windows Vista Beta 1 and Tiger

[the-fish]

If vista is as close to OSX as it looks, Apple could be in trouble. We could be in for another 1985 where Apple develops a great operating system, chooses not to license it and MS comes along implements of all Apple's good ideas and ends up reaping the rewards of Apple's hard work.

Yeah... I know back then the courts ruled that Microsoft could copy Apple's GUI elements in order to prevent Apple getting a monopoly (ironic, eh?) but surely they have to step in: Microsoft has had 20 years to innovate in a way different to Apple's way, but they're still copying - surely that means they're abusing the courts' ruling.

 

[Mac Dummy]

I read an article at ZDnet UK that there are already scripts that could be turned into malicious code (aka viruses,trojan horses and worms) for Vista.

I'm going back to Win '98!

To bad Virtual PC is so slow.

 

[PCMacUser]

If vista is as close to OSX as it looks, Apple could be in trouble. We could be in for another 1985 where Apple develops a great operating system, chooses not to license it and MS comes along implements of all Apple's good ideas and ends up reaping the rewards of Apple's hard work.

Don't worry - Vista is not really anything like OS X. It's still Windows, just with a few changes to folder navigation (something Windows has always been better at than OS X anyway IMHO), and some other bits and pieces. The things I've read from people complaining about Vista copying stuff are misleading - the reality is that there is very little similarity between the systems - even if the search icon is a magnifying glass like Spotlight's...

 

[the-fish]

Awesome. I agree, Finder is pretty bad.

 

[BGil]

venue is a standalone system and does only run on digidesign system. it can be operated in a live venue without a computer, and that's where it got its name. it is an embedded system.

The embedded system that Venue uses is XP.

I was a Beta tester of Windows XP, Windows 2003, and Office 2003. All cost around $35 and were shipped in Beta Kits that included product keys, cds, and instructions. Microsoft allows a certain group of enthusiasts (http://beta.microsoft.com) and other individuals that are rewarded for their participation on their message boards (MVPs and such) to beta test flagship products for free. However, I wouldn't expect them to just up and completely open Vista Beta 2 to everyone.

Only the shipped packages cost money. The downloads through the preview programs are free of charge.
http://www.google.com/search?q=windows+server+2003+preview+free
http://news.com.com/Microsoft+launches+64-bit+preview+OS/2100-1016_3-5153259.html

Don't worry - Vista is not really anything like OS X.

Correct. The function of almost everything is totally different. Searching is totally different, the file metaphor is different etc.
It's kinda weird that people would say vista looks or acts like OS X because they said the same thing about Luna when XP came out. I think we can all see that Luna is nothing like Aqua.

And Monad has been pulled from Vista.

Monad wasn't ever in Vista. It has always been an administrative tool like all the stuff ships in the "valueadd" folder on an XP CD. Monad along with all the deployment and development tools were never part of a Vista install.

Maybe you mean Monad was cut from Longhorn (Server) or will not be available before Vista ships or something but what you said is not true. All indications are that Monad will ship with Exchange 12 before Vista ships.

Now you're name calling?

Wow.Okay.
From your own link
http://www.winsupersite.com/showcas...review_2005.asp
'WinFS Beta: Mid-2006'
Notice the 'Beta' there.
Beta!
The completed version of WinFS won't be available until 2007.
Just like I said before.

First, calling you ignorant isn't "name calling". Name calling is something like me calling you "poopy pants" or "sissy boy". I didn't use the term ignorant in place of your name.

Second. Yes, the completed version won't be available until 2007 but that's not what you said.

3.) Windows long touted WinFS, won't be available until 2007.

It will be available next year when Vista RTM's (next summer).

WinFS will be available for use (and no doubt public preview) next year when Vista RTM's or hits retail shelves. Similarly, Microsoft Desktop Search was a beta/preview when it became available last Dec., Gmail is still in beta but available, SQL Server Express and Visual Studio Express are beta and available, as are Avalon and Indigo.

Plus, your link hasn't been updated since April.

Nothing has changed since April.

Microsoft has had 20 years to innovate in a way different to Apple's way, but they're still copying

Task-based folders that are context sensitive, windows with menubars attached to them, three buttons in the corner of a window, DirectX (most anything in the APIs), anything Server related, Windows Media, Media Center, Tablet, Smart Display, Windows Embedded, Windows CE, Windows Mobile, Virtual Folders, hardware accelerated video and image processing/decoding/playback etc. are all areas that Microsoft was innovating in although Apple was not. When OS X came out Apple changed course and now they are moving towards some of those areas.

Tiger wasn't innovative at all (except for Automator) and was clearly a "beat Longhorn out the door thing" than a "quality of experience thing" IMO. It was so ridiculously insipired by Longhorn that the "Introducing Longhorn" and "Redmond, start your photocopiers" banners were actually contradicting.

Automator was clearly the most innovative thing they had to offer but it caught a marketing backseat to the "heavily-inspired" Spotlight and Dashboard. Apple isn't going to gain a ton of marketshare from Microsoft and they aren't going to die no matter what they do so why even bother trying to counter Windows? They should just do what is best for their users which now means fixing Spotlight, fixing all the stupid bugs, and giving us a new Finder. If that's all that Leopard had then I would be happy (although hardware acceleration of HD-DVD would be nice).

I booted back into OS 9 a few days ago and I can't believe that Apple ditched that interface.

Tiger users can rest assured that Spotlight kicks Vista's backside when it comes to searching!

How so?

But Vista does look considerably more modern than Tiger, but obviously we'll see Leopard before Vista makes it to final release
The fancy new graphics in the core windows system are very nice - dare I say it - more impressive than Tiger

I don't see how it looks any more modern than Tiger. It doesn't look any more impressive either IMO. Sure, the underlying technology behind WGF is far more impressive but the look of Vista doesn't display that.

even if the search icon is a magnifying glass like Spotlight's...

That same icon is in every XP and 2000 install, on the start menu, and also very similar to the icon that debuted in Windows 95.

 

[JFreak]

The embedded system that Venue uses is XP

you must back this up with facts. nothing that i have read, seen or used points in this direction. venue also supports some such plugins that are very crash-prone in XP platform (digidesign reverb1, eventide h949, line6 amp farm) but work wonderfully in OSX.

i have nothing to add until you can provide facts that clearly show that the underlying core of a venue system is a windows.

 

[BGil]

you must back this up with facts. nothing that i have read, seen or used points in this direction. venue also supports some such plugins that are very crash-prone in XP platform (digidesign reverb1, eventide h949, line6 amp farm) but work wonderfully in OSX.

i have nothing to add until you can provide facts that clearly show that the underlying core of a venue system is a windows.

The VENUE SR desk was developed on a parallel path with Digidesign's new ICON integrated production console and DAW. "We knew that we'd be able to share some technology between both products since they'd both be large control surface products," said Gibbons. But, he is quick to add that the products are quite independent and different. Unlike ICON, VENUE does not run in conjunction with Digidesign's Pro Tools software. "We knew that the Pro Tools application was not the right starting point for a product that would make live sound possible," says Gibbons, "and therefore we started from scratch architecturally with a new piece of software that was built from the ground up for reliability and for the kind of functionality that you'd want from a live product." Nor does VENUE use the same hardware interfaces and DSP engines as other Digidesign products, but is built around a dedicated computer running Windows XP Embedded, a customizable version of XP designed for application specific computing. "That gives you the kind of latitude you need to be able to make an extremely high reliability product because you can eliminate parts of the operating system that aren't essential to the services you're trying to provide." Gibbons explains. With XP Embeded, Digidesign could control boot time, prioritize processes, and protect the console operation from other software that might run on the system.

The VENUE FOH [The CPU and DSP] box communicates with the D-Show and the Venue STAGE box, and houses redesigned HD ACCEL cards for processing—all equally equipped with RAM so there's no plug-in swapping, according to Peterson. The FOH box boots Windows XP embedded from an ordinary hard drive, which could be field replaced with the operating system reloaded from CD. Upgrades and updates could come from CD or via the USB ports.

http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache...tory_id=1567+protools+venue+xp+embedded&hl=en

http://www.digidesign.com/news/details.cfm?story_id=1568

Mackie uses it too
http://www.mackie.com/products/digitalxbus/index.html

Here's there intor movie where the guy says it's running on XP embedded.
http://www.mackie.com/products/digitalxbus/movie3.html

Tascam uses it in a number of their products too
http://www.sanewave.com/prod_x48.htm

 

[beatle888]

http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache...tory_id=1567+protools+venue+xp+embedded&hl=en

http://www.digidesign.com/news/details.cfm?story_id=1568

Mackie uses it too
http://www.mackie.com/products/digitalxbus/index.html

Here's there intor movie where the guy says it's running on XP embedded.
http://www.mackie.com/products/digitalxbus/movie3.html

Tascam uses it in a number of their products too
http://www.sanewave.com/prod_x48.htm

it looks like RacerX taught you something. if your gonna have a big mouth you need facts. keep it up, people might start listening to you.

 

[azrussell132]

Looks cool...but doubt I would upgrade.

 

[csubear]

Dude, you are sounding like a bit of a fan-boy...

Task-based folders that are context sensitive.

I work on windows 2003 every day, where are these task-based folder ?? I don't think windows has this yet.

windows with menubars attached to them

Is this really a good thing? For me its one of the most annoying things about windows. A window should be responsible for its content, and a menu bar is responsible for actions. Why should they be one in the same? If you think about the relationship between actions and content, its a many to one relationship. A menu bar can act on many views, and view has one defined set of actions that they respond to.

three buttons in the corner of a window

Please see Xerox's original GUI, or X windows

DirectX (most anything in the APIs)

Please see OpenGL. OpenGL(1992, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenGL) predate DirectX(1995, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DirectX) by a few years.

anything Server related

Microsoft invented server? I don't think so please see UNIX http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UNIX

Windows Media

Quicktime. 1991 Window's media player 1992

Video for Windows was first introduced in November 1992 as a reaction to Apple Computer's QuickTime technology which added digital video to the Macintosh platform

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_for_Windows

Media Center

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mythtv, 2002
Windows media center 2003

Tablet

This wasn't a big hit. Apple invented the handheld computer with hand writing recognition, the newton

Smart Display

What is a smart display?

Windows Embedded, Windows CE

Linux, free BSD? Palm OS? These existed before any embedded version of windows.

Windows Mobile

Palm OS?

Virtual Folders

You mean a symbolic link? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbolic_link

hardware accelerated video and image processing/decoding/playback etc.

has nothing to do with windows. this is a hardware device. heck even the driver for the device is not written by microsoft.

are all areas that Microsoft was innovating in although Apple was not. When OS X came out Apple changed course and now they are moving towards some of those areas.

Clearly if you do a little research you can see that microsoft is not an innovator. They are reactors. They react to other peoples innovations....

Now, about apple changing course, yes they did. They changed course when the moved there entire user base to an OS based on NEXTStep. NEXTStep has not changed course, and neither has steve jobs. Innovators will always be ahead of reactors.

 

[BGil]

I work on windows 2003 every day, where are these task-based folder ?? I don't think windows has this yet.

There are task specific folders for music files, specific artists, compressed files, FTP's, images, shared drives etc.

Notice how the tasks in the task pane change and the column in details view (or the critera you can sort by when you right click) change depending on the content of the folder. Some types of folders even default to specific views.

Is this really a good thing? For me its one of the most annoying things about windows. A window should be responsible for its content, and a menu bar is responsible for actions. Why should they be one in the same? If you think about the relationship between actions and content, its a many to one relationship. A menu bar can act on many views, and view has one defined set of actions that they respond to.

Menubar-app disconnect is one reason I prefer the the Windows and typical Linux way of doing things. The larger your screen gets the worse the single menubar gets. I have two 24 inch monitors and there's no reason why I should have to move the mouse all the way to the other screen to use the menubar. Even just working on one large screen it starts to get ridiculous. I can spread both Reason and two other apps on one screen yet the Mac makes me go click on the app then go find the menu item (which is in another place entirely) as opposed to just going straing to the menu item I want.

Microsoft invented server? I don't think so please see UNIX http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UNIX

Okay, backup for a second. No where did I say Microsoft invented any of those things. I said they were innovating in those areas not innovating the area.
The quote I was responding to was:

Microsoft has had 20 years to innovate in a way different to Apple's way, but they're still copying

All the things I listed are areas where Microsoft went a different direction from Apple. Apple left PDA's (tablets) long before Microsoft decided to move in that direction. Likewise for
But for the sake of arguement you're wrong on several things

Please see Xerox's original GUI, or X windows

Do you have screenshots of three buttons in the corner of the Xerox UI or X Windows before Windows 95 (Chicago)?
http://arstechnica.com/articles/paedia/gui.ars/1

Please see OpenGL. OpenGL(1992, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenGL) predate DirectX(1995, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DirectX) by a few years.

1. I didn't say they invented the concept but innovated within it.
2. DX has millions of things that OpenGL doesn't even begin to cover. Maybe you've heard of DXvA or Direct X video acceleration. It's what allows many PC High-def TV tuners, with no dedicated encoder/decoder to do full-size full-framerate HD on a P3 750 with a DX9 card while Mac tuners generally require a dual processor G5 PowerMac to accomplish the same task. It's also what allows PC's to do WMV-HD or MPEG-2 HD while staying under 10-20% CPU utilization while Macs get no where near that. Do you remember hearing about how ATI is giong to accelerate H.264 on their RS520 (next gen) cards? Guess who's spec they're using. It's part of DXVA2.0 and Longhorn/Vista.

Quicktime. 1991 Window's media player 1992

Again, Microsoft has moved in directions with Windows Media that Apple never did with QT (or did later). Windows Media 9 and it's DRM officially debuted in 2002. That's 24-bit, 96kHz, 5.1 or 7.1 sound and lossless encoding. Windows Media Video fully supported HD content and the entire HD spec (720p and 1080i) whereas Apple still doesn't AFAIK. The T2 High-Def DVD was release in 2003 along with at least a dozen more HD DVD's. Microsoft is on both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD in addition to supporting a red-laser format with Warner Bros.
Janus, the subscription DRM, doesn't have an equal on Apple's side (although I think it will in the coming years). Video stores, portable video devices, video on PDA's etc. are all things Apple hasn't gotten into yet but many think they may.

This wasn't a big hit. Apple invented the handheld computer with hand writing recognition, the newton

Tablets sell a lot better than PowerMacs now and last year they sold about the sale amount. So I guess the G5 PowerMac isn't a hit either. I wouldn't be surprised if Tablet PC's outsold all Apple laptops this year or next. They've already seen a 64 percent increase (year over year) in the first quarter of this year and IBM hadn't even released their model yet.
But anyway... obviously Microsoft is innovating in an area that Apple is not because Apple doesn't have a Tablet PC (although many people are hoping they come out with one).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mythtv, 2002
Windows media center 2003

MCE was introduced and shown off on Jan. 7th 2002. The first Media Center PC's shipped in Sept of 2002. MythTV didn't even exist until April of 2002. FYI, Balmer (IIRC) said the reason for keeping Aero secret until Beta 2 is to stop others from copying it because that's exactly what happened with the Media Center interface. It's everywhere now and people copied it before they could get a patent on it. Maybe they were talking about MythTV?

But again, Apple has no Media Center nor have they expressed any intention on making one so Microsoft can't be copying them.

And before you say MCE's don't sell they sold over 600,000 units in the first quarter this year which is about as many desktops as Apple sold in the same period. MCE's should sell a lot more this quarter due to all the $850 dual core MCE's on the market.

Palm OS?

Have you been following the PDA scene? If you had you'd know that the Palm OS hasn't done much of anything since, well, ever. They've been stagnating and Windows Mobile leads the way on the PDA platform, especially when it comes to multimedia, wireless networking, multitasking etc.
Hell, even the hardware company (Palm) is contemplating moving to Windows Mobile.

And again, Apple doesn't have a PDA and Microsoft's isn't copying them in that area. If anything you could say the iTunes phone is trying to follow Windows-based Smartphones but whatever.

You mean a symbolic link? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbolic_link

Nope. Longhorn was using Virtual folders and a virtual heirarchy (which Apple still deosn't have) since at least 4015. Apple saw the PDC 2003 keynote and decided to follow. $50 says 10.5 has a virtual file system similar to the one in Vista.

Like Balmer said, Apple basically copied the code directly out of Longhorn Alpha's to get Spotlight. Talk about reactionary.

has nothing to do with windows. this is a hardware device. heck even the driver for the device is not written by microsoft.

It's a hardware device and driver that conforms to Microsoft (DirectX) specs. Apple doesn't have anything in that area yet either.

Microsoft invented server? I don't think so please see UNIX http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UNIX

You use Windows Server 2003 everyday? Then you should know what Microsoft has innovated on the server. I'm sure you've hear of Volume Shadow Copy, Active Directory and the like.

Clearly if you do a little research you can see that microsoft is not an innovator. They are reactors. They react to other peoples innovations....

If you'd do a little research then you'd see that Microsoft is an innovator. Sure, not everything is innovative but niether is what Apple does (especially lately). Today Microsoft, by simply having their feet in more markets, innovates more than Apple does.

Now, about apple changing course, yes they did. They changed course when the moved there entire user base to an OS based on NEXTStep. NEXTStep has not changed course, and neither has steve jobs. Innovators will always be ahead of reactors.

Seriously, how long ago did Jobs announce that they where switching to Intel and X86? You know, the house that Wintel built? Sorry but that's not just a change of course but a complete 180. LOL, I can't wait for Mactels to come out so we can see them lie about how much faster they are than AMD and (the same exact) Intel procs running Windows.
http://www.apple.com/powermac/performance/
That site will be interesting to see around the WWDC next year.

And since when did NextStep or the Mac OS have 3 buttons in the corner of the window?

 

[sambo.]

whatever the result, it'll be interesting.

 

[BGil]

whatever the result, it'll be interesting.

Result of what?

 

[csubear]

Hey dude whatever. You drink your kool-aid, and I'll drink mine, Okay? I don't have time to respond to your post sorry, I also can't find my Apple Holy Warrior Outfit at the moment.

I am quite happy with my personal computing platform choice, and there are many reason for that. I write windows software for a living, and I have a degrees in computer science, and computer engineering. I know a well designed, innovated system when I see it. And it is not windows. Sorry to break it too you. COM sucks, it solves a problem that isn't there. The registry, which is a product of COM, sucks. .Net is a java clone, ontop of COM. Windows is a giant kludge built on a kludge.


Okay so i Guess I respond to a few....

There are task specific folders for music files, specific artists, compressed files, FTP's, images, shared drives etc.

Fancy name for folders? Again there is no way in windows for me to set up a folder where I can say "get all music with import date=blah". Great you have a my music folder, and a my documents, funfun/

And ftp sites or shared drives???? I am sorry those aren't folders those are mounts. Even in windows... Been around forever.

. DX has millions of things that OpenGL doesn't even begin to cover. Maybe you've heard of DXvA or Direct X video acceleration. It's what allows many PC High-def TV tuners, with no dedicated encoder/decoder to do full-size full-framerate HD on a P3 750 with a DX9 card while Mac tuners generally require a dual processor G5 PowerMac to accomplish the same task. It's also what allows PC's to do WMV-HD or MPEG-2 HD while staying under 10-20% CPU utilization while Macs get no where near that. Do you remember hearing about how ATI is giong to accelerate H.264 on their RS520 (next gen) cards? Guess who's spec they're using. It's part of DXVA2.0 and Longhorn/Vista.

I would love to see a P3 750 doing HD(MPEG 4) without some hardware acceleration. I don't want to say this again. HARDWARE acceleration is NOT part of windows. Its part of the hardware, and is supported on any platform that the vendor choses to write drivers for

Again, Microsoft has moved in directions with Windows Media that Apple never did with QT (or did later). Windows Media 9 and it's DRM officially debuted in 2002. That's 24-bit, 96kHz, 5.1 or 7.1 sound and lossless encoding. Windows Media Video fully supported HD content and the entire HD spec (720p and 1080i) whereas Apple still doesn't AFAIK.

Hun? Last time I checked I can edit and play HD video in my FREE copy of iMovie. Apple has the best .h264 implementation on the market.

Tablets sell a lot better than PowerMacs now and last year they sold about the sale amount.

You got numbers, and real source's for those number?

MCE was introduced and shown off on Jan. 7th 2002. The first Media Center PC's shipped in Sept of 2002. MythTV didn't even exist until April of 2002. FYI, Balmer (IIRC) said the reason for keeping Aero secret until Beta 2 is to stop others from copying it because that's exactly what happened with the Media Center interface. It's everywhere now and people copied it before they could get a patent on it. Maybe they were talking about MythTV?

But again, Apple has no Media Center nor have they expressed any intention on making one so Microsoft can't be copying them.

And before you say MCE's don't sell they sold over 600,000 units in the first quarter this year which is about as many desktops as Apple sold in the same period. MCE's should sell a lot more this quarter due to all the $850 dual core MCE's on the market.

Lots of fun till you have to clean you first virus and/or spyware off your media center.

Please stop quoting Balmer, he is nothing but marketing. Never listen to marketing.

Have you been following the PDA scene? If you had you'd know that the Palm OS hasn't done much of anything since, well, ever. They've been stagnating and Windows Mobile leads the way on the PDA platform, especially when it comes to multimedia, wireless networking, multitasking etc.
Hell, even the hardware company (Palm) is contemplating moving to Windows Mobile.

And again, Apple doesn't have a PDA and Microsoft's isn't copying them in that area. If anything you could say the iTunes phone is trying to follow Windows-based Smartphones but whatever.

And Microsoft is following symbian's lead then?

Nope. Longhorn was using Virtual folders and a virtual heirarchy (which Apple still deosn't have) since at least 4015. Apple saw the PDC 2003 keynote and decided to follow. $50 says 10.5 has a virtual file system similar to the one in Vista.

Like Balmer said, Apple basically copied the code directly out of Longhorn Alpha's to get Spotlight. Talk about reactionary.

Virtual file system eh? What are those smart folder that I have? Please define virtual file systems. Still sounds like a symlink to me.

It's a hardware device and driver that conforms to Microsoft (DirectX) specs. Apple doesn't have anything in that area yet either.

Please say it with me every one: Its a driver. Apple has those to, there called kernel extensions. There also that whole core video thing, or core image. You know realtime image processing on the graphics card.

You use Windows Server 2003 everyday? Then you should know what Microsoft has innovated on the server. I'm sure you've hear of Volume Shadow Copy, Active Directory and the like.

Sorry dude open source beat Microsoft to the punch on this one. NIS,LDAP,NFS, and the like. Active Directory is LDAP. Please please please drop your assertion that Microsoft is a huge innovator in the Server arena. It is simply not true. With windows 2003 that have moved from being a complete joke, to something that for the most part works. *nix has been doing this for years.
Never mind the fact the nt used BSD tcp/ip stack. Maybe there was a reason why Microsoft ported a .Net runtime to freeBSD?

Dude please learn to stop using the buzz words, and learn the technology. Microsoft historically is a reactor to the market not an innovator.

I am not here to defend apple. I like my computers, and i like the framework that apple built with OS X.

Longhorn is apple's copland. Windows is this giant mess of interdependent modules, and it is a giant pain to create new features because so many apps are dependent on particular windows behavior or APIs. For gods sake many part of you browser is running in kernel space. GDI, directX, and may other things are running at kernel privileges. Your really don't know where they heading with there development api. Will .net forms be there in vista? .net 2? .net 1.1? Right now we just don't know.

Microsoft needs to embrace unix. If you noticed some windows tech has been moving towards the unix way of doing things for few years now. NT is a unix wanabe. There is a reason why *nixs have been around for so long. They have dealt with the problems of how to make a good OS years ago. Windows is a reinvention of the wheel driven by market reactions.

okay i'm done. you can go back to overclocking you cpu and running your anti-spywayre-virus ect.. and thinking about how l33t windows is.

 

[JFreak]

And again, Apple doesn't have a PDA and Microsoft's isn't copying them in that area.

ever heard of the newton? apple invented the pda's, but dropped them 'cause they didn't want to focus on the concept. even now that people actually know better what pda is and isn't, apple isn't going to make them anymore.

a virtual heirarchy (which Apple still deosn't have)

ever heard of symbolic links of the unix system or aliases of the macintosh? that's virtual hierarchy, and the reason apple doesn't use them much is that it distracts the regular user way too much. the power user can use the underlying tech but not all people will have to get confused.

 

[RacerX]

Seriously, how long ago did Jobs announce that they where switching to Intel and X86? You know, the house that Wintel built?

I guess that would be January 1992.

And that was the house that Intel built.

We shouldn't forget that Windows bullied every other Intel based OS practically out of existence by barring OEMs from installing any other operating system other than Microsoft's.

And Microsoft took aggressive actions against Intel after Intel had made advances that were cross-platform (see The Similar Experiences of Other Firms in Dealing with Microsoft).

You (again) obviously haven't done your research and read much of the DoJ's case against Microsoft (even after I took the time to point you to it).

You know, the house that Wintel built is not a shining example of Microsoft doing anything right (or more importantly, ethical).

And since when did NextStep or the Mac OS have 3 buttons in the corner of the window?

Lets look at the Windows 95 widgets that you seem to think was the high point of Microsoft innovation. Attached is an image of Pre-Windows 95 title bars (from Windows 3.1 and NEXTSTEP 3.3) and a Windows 95 title bar (Microsoft's innovation in action).

Yep... they moved those three widgets together. No doubt about it.



Of course, it would have been nice if they hadn't blatantly stolen the design of two of the three widgets from NEXTSTEP. But we shouldn't let that shadow Microsoft's creative genius.

 

[BGil]

Fancy name for folders? Again there is no way in windows for me to set up a folder where I can say "get all music with import date=blah". Great you have a my music folder, and a my documents, funfun/

There's nothing about Apple's smart folders are just saved searches and they only resemble a folder by the name and icon. You can't save to them, drag things into them, etc.
They aren't very folder like at all.

Windows already has saved searches from 2000/XP and the Windows Desktop Search.

And ftp sites or shared drives???? I am sorry those aren't folders those are mounts. Even in windows... Been around forever.

1. Windows actually treats those as folders (as well as compressed files, the control panel, network places, and more) and they are context specific.
2. Each one of those mounts have folders on them (typically) and those are context specific as well.

I would love to see a P3 750 doing HD(MPEG 4) without some hardware acceleration. I don't want to say this again. HARDWARE acceleration is NOT part of windows. Its part of the hardware, and is supported on any platform that the vendor choses to write drivers for

That's like saying hardware accelerated image processing isn't part of Tiger because it's a hardware function.
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/d...ectshow/htm/aboutdirectxvideoacceleration.asp

Again, Nvidia and ATI cards and drivers that accelerate HD using DXVA conform to the Microsoft spec not the other way around. DXVA was released with DX9 in 2002 (actually it was released with DX8 but not the HD stuff). That's a long time before ATI or Nvidia had a card that fully supported it.

Hun? Last time I checked I can edit and play HD video in my FREE copy of iMovie. Apple has the best .h264 implementation on the market.

1. Calling iMovie "free" is like calling Windows free. It came with your computer at no additional charge but it isn't free. There are no free upgrades and it sells as part of iLife. Several companies offer video editing software with their computers (and yes they do HD).
2. AIC sucks.
3. Apple doesn't conform to the HD spec at all. They don't really support 1080i and their default container is mov instead of the mp4 that is designated by the spec.
4. Apple's QT7 player is by far the slowest and uses the most processing power (compared to all the other major players).
5. Apple's H.264 sucks compared to nearly all other implementations. That's Ateme/Nero, x264, Moonlight, Mpegable, VSS etc.
It's not at the absolute bottom but it's pretty close. You can do your won tests with this info here:
http://www.heise.de/ct/05/10/146/tabelle_traktor.shtml
http://lists.mpegif.org/pipermail/mp4-tech/2005-June/005626.html
http://compression.ru/video/codec_comparison/mpeg-4_avc_h264_en.html
http://compression.ru/video/quality_measure/video_measurement_tool_en.html
The best thing to do is to encode it in H.264 (from uncompressed if you have the space) then uncompress it and run it through the various testing programs.
http://compression.ru/video/quality_measure/video_measurement_tool_en.html

You got numbers, and real source's for those number?

http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,119499,00.asp

In 2004, about 48.9 million notebooks were shipped worldwide, according to preliminary IDC numbers. Only about 650,000, or 1.3 percent, of those were Tablet PCs, according to IDC research analyst Alan Promisel.

And Microsoft is following symbian's lead then?

Is it really that hard for you to admit that Microsoft innovated something?

Pocket PC 2000 set the standard for multimedia (and more) on the PDA. No one, including Symbian, had done it well until then. At best, Handspring had a springboard module that allowed you to play MP3's but it sucked by comparison and I think it came out a little later.
Either way, this is an aera that Apple isn't innovating in and where Microsoft is.

ever heard of the newton? apple invented the pda's, but dropped them 'cause they didn't want to focus on the concept. even now that people actually know better what pda is and isn't, apple isn't going to make them anymore.

They dropped them for the same reason they dropped the G4 Cube; it was way too expensive and didn't sell well. PDA's didn't sell well until Palm put out the Palm Pilot and Microsoft put out the Pocket PC. Either way, Apple is not in the PDA game anymore and Microsoft is still innovating there.

Lots of fun till you have to clean you first virus and/or spyware off your media center.

<sarcasm>Right, because we all know Media Center 2005 (SP2) is so susceptible to viruses and spyware. </sarcasm>

I thought you said you used Windows Server 2003 everyday? You should know that IIS 6 is pretty damn secure (especially compared to Apache 2)

How the hell is a virus, worm, or spyware gonna climb through my firewall (I technically have three of them) and past my system that automatically downloads updates?

At least those updates don't break stuff and cause dozens of new bugs like 10.x.x updates do. Damn, I can't even count the number of times an update broke something in FCP Studio or even just the OS itself.

Please stop quoting Balmer, he is nothing but marketing. Never listen to marketing.

Build 4015, released in April of 2003 @ WinHec

http://www.winsupersite.com/reviews/longhorn_4015.asp
Note the part on "Libraries".

So in the next wave we've got to have those rich views, got to have content indexing, got to unify the storm. We have got to have the schemas allow you to classify things so that things even appear to organize without you getting involved.

We see a little bit of this in the Outlook Client, where you have search folders, so that if you want to see all your mail from one person, you just click on that folder. You don't have to drop something in there, because it's essentially a standing query. And so information can be in many locations; it's just a matter of defining the criteria, not having to move it around.

All right, so let's dive into some of the things Bill talked about. Let me open up this documents window. Now, in some ways this is a pretty straightforward screen. This is essentially the evolution of my document, but a couple of things are different. First of all, we are showing almost 1,100 items in this view, which, frankly, given today's experience, it would be a little not useful. And, in fact, these items are not sitting in one folder. They're located across the system. And this view is actually a dynamic view that is generated for you right in the system, and of course available as part of the platform.

So let's do a simple thing that you think would be simple today, but "WinFS" is going to provide built-in search facilities. So I have 1,100 items. I want to find all the items that have something to do with "Longhorn." So as I type I want you to watch the number right here, 1095, go down to 30, and see how fast that happens. By the time I'm done typing, we're down from 1,110 to 30 items right there in the system. (Applause.)

Now, built-in search capabilities -- this is something you're going to expect. But let's talk about the kind of self-organization that Bill talked about in "WinFS." For example, let's say we want to take these 1,100 items and organize them by a property, a property that is built into the schema. So right here we have author. We click on "author," and we could actually filter down the 1,100 based on who the author is, or we can do this new thing called stack. And when I click on "stack," it actually draws a new view that shows all these items in these stacks by who wrote them. And in fact, if you look carefully at the stacks, they have different heights, depending on how many items are represented in them. And because they are not physical locations, one item can show up in more than one stack. And these are folders that when created this dynamic view being built for me on the fly based on the rich structured meta data that is sitting in "WinFS" on these items. So let's double-click on "Bill."

From the PDC in 2003.

ever heard of symbolic links of the unix system or aliases of the macintosh? that's virtual hierarchy,

Wrong. Show me a hierarchy of symbolic links. It doesn't exist and it's completely different from the virtual heirarchy created in a database-backed app. Look at the heirarchy in WMP or Vista's Document Explorer and notice that you can drill into containers ("folders" and stacks) that don't actually exist. There are no symbolic links created for each folder just like Spotlight isn't creating symbolic links when you open a Spotlight window (or even a smart folder). In Vista the virtual heirarchy can completely replace the traditional one where as Spotlight (because its smart folders are just saved searches and not folder-like at all) makes each smart folder an island. There's no hierarchy of smart folders but I bet there will be in Leopard.

 

[BGil]

and the reason apple doesn't use them much is that it distracts the regular user way too much. the power user can use the underlying tech but not all people will have to get confused.

Apple doesn't use them because they didn't have time to implement them in Spotlight or Searchkit. They barely implemented Spotlight in the time they had. This is all based on the fact that Microsoft Desktop Search, Google Desktop Search, Beagle, and a few others were developed in about the same amount of time that occured between the PDC in 2003 and the WWDC in 2004.
It's basically going to require the Finder be rebuilt on top of the Spotlight datastore not to mention Spotlight needs to be changed quite radically in some areas.

I know a well designed, innovated system when I see it. And it is not windows. Sorry to break it too you. COM sucks, it solves a problem that isn't there. The registry, which is a product of COM, sucks. .Net is a java clone, ontop of COM. Windows is a giant kludge built on a kludge.

Yeah, that can be said about any system. Mach sucks, HFS+ is way outdated and slow, Filevault is horrible, SearchKit sucks, CoreVideo is crap, Quicktime is junk, apple's hardware is slow and overpriced etc.

I guess that would be January 1992.

I knew you were going to bring that up

And that was the house that Intel built.

We shouldn't forget that Windows bullied every other Intel based OS practically out of existence by barring OEMs from installing any other operating system other than Microsoft's.

And don't forget that Intel bullied companies out of supporting other chipmakers like AMD. Anyway you look at it, it's a Wintel platform.
The Microsoft Windows/Office/DOS and Intel Inside (Pentium) marketing campaign and strongarm tactics pretty much killed everyone else.
But Apple is still doing a 180 by adopting that platform and taking advantage of all the hardware that Microsoft and Intel (among others on X86) designed together.

 

[jayscheuerle]

Man, you guys are silly.

Most of the people in these forums use Macs because they just work better as a whole and they don't require as much technical knowledge and they don't get viruses.

Microsoft CAN innovate, but they're more likely to just buy out a company that has done the innovating and add the kitchen sink to that product. The problem is that Microsoft is not interested in elegance or ease of use. They are interested in features, which results in cumbersome products that can do a lot of things if you can figure them out or get them to work at all.

Apple and Microsoft don't even sell the same products. Microsoft is a business that sells software that people use out of default. They make their money from an endless cycle of upgrades and removing competition, not by selling a better product, but by running other companies out of business via shoddy business practices. Apple sells elegant appliances that happen to be PCs and mp3 players. These devices are sought out by desire. Nobody HAS to buy Apple products because their work uses them or Rios won't play their mp3s. Apple sells a lifestyle image.

You can talk up Microsoft all you want, but it doesn't really matter what they've done as the products they continue to produce create an inferior experience. Apple doesn't have to innovate at all as their talent seems to be in creating a cohesive experience that requires minimal effort and conflict.

Vista will be most disappointing to those who knew what it was supposed to be, but for most people, it will just be the next OS that comes on the PC that they replace every 3 years. Similar enough to the old one to get the job done, but a little purtier to match that stylish Dell case.

- Virus free for 20 years without ever running anti-virus software.. It's nice. Trust me...

 

[matthew24]

BGil: I switched because I was sick and tired of Windows, BGil thank you for bringing back those fond M$ memories.

 

[PCMacUser]

Vista will be most disappointing to those who knew what it was supposed to be

Okay, that's the bit that I agreed with...

 

[willyjsimmons]

BGil

Give it up man.

Everything I originally posted still stands my friend.

No WinFS until 2007.

That's exactly what I said.

Go back and read it.

Everything else you've said has been garbage.

Garbage.

 

[movabi]

Well.. this is my perspective on Apple state of affairs...

I keep having crashes for almost every Apple app. The following is a blurb i sent to Apple in a crash report for Safari....

"SAD... Very sad. I am removing safari from my dock and replacing it with Firefox. I didn't think i'd ever be so underwhelmed with an OS experience ever... Tiger has F A I L E D to hook me. It broke my Classic environment. So now i can't even use 'one of a kind' apps that have no OS X equivalent because talented programers are developing software just to make your OS work. Disappointed. I run more 3rd party apps @ anywhere from $5 upwards just to give me functionality that should have already been part of the OS... Fruitmenu, Windowshade, FontCard, Desktop Manger, Default Folder, DragThing, ASM, iClock, Speed Download, DragonDrop (remember OS 9 tabbed Finder windows), Path Finder, Synergy, Window Dragon, PopCharacter, FinderIcon, LockPop, Konfabulator, PicturePop... And now, i have to add Firefox to the list of apps that you should be excelling at. BOO! I won't even mention Shapeshifter, because its obvious that you don't want your users to have any customization or options."

I failed to include finder freezes and beachballs just opening folders with large amounts of files... It takes less time to copy the folder and files to another drive than to actually move the files from one folder to another on the same drive... general kernelpanics (with absolutely no nice gray curtain or message)... machine lockups (i mean hard lockups) using Spotlight for long periods of time... I feel like i'm in pre X days.

As for Microsoft Windows... Vista... whatever. I just wish Microsoft would move faster and give Apple a better incentive to change.

I don't have time to screw around with bugs and wait on the Finder and other parts of the OS. I photograph, design type, themes, graphics and video. I ideate and create. I'd rather do that than fight with my OS. At this point in the game, I just need results. I'm not a programmer (although, sometimes i wish I was and could) I'm just a dumb designer... I've always been a visual person and learner and that's why I fell in love with Macintosh.

 

[jayscheuerle]

I keep having crashes for almost every Apple app. The following is a blurb i sent to Apple in a crash report for Safari....

"SAD... Very sad. I am removing safari from my dock and replacing it with Firefox. I didn't think i'd ever be so underwhelmed with an OS experience ever... Tiger has F A I L E D to hook me. It broke my Classic environment. So now i can't even use 'one of a kind' apps that have no OS X equivalent because talented programers are developing software just to make your OS work. Disappointed. I run more 3rd party apps @ anywhere from $5 upwards just to give me functionality that should have already been part of the OS... Fruitmenu, Windowshade, FontCard, Desktop Manger, Default Folder, DragThing, ASM, iClock, Speed Download, DragonDrop (remember OS 9 tabbed Finder windows), Path Finder, Synergy, Window Dragon, PopCharacter, FinderIcon, LockPop, Konfabulator, PicturePop... And now, i have to add Firefox to the list of apps that you should be excelling at. BOO! I won't even mention Shapeshifter, because its obvious that you don't want your users to have any customization or options."

I failed to include finder freezes and beachballs just opening folders with large amounts of files... It takes less time to copy the folder and files to another drive than to actually move the files from one folder to another on the same drive... general kernelpanics (with absolutely no nice gray curtain or message)... machine lockups (i mean hard lockups) using Spotlight for long periods of time... I feel like i'm in pre X days.

As for Microsoft Windows... Vista... whatever. I just wish Microsoft would move faster and give Apple a better incentive to change.

I don't have time to screw around with bugs and wait on the Finder and other parts of the OS. I photograph, design type, themes, graphics and video. I ideate and create. I'd rather do that than fight with my OS. At this point in the game, I just need results. I'm not a programmer (although, sometimes i wish I was and could) I'm just a dumb designer... I've always been a visual person and learner and that's why I fell in love with Macintosh.

Any wonder that you're having problems with all that crap you're running?
I'm a dumb designer with a clean system that has NEVER crashed in Tiger. Maybe you need to reinstall and run without all the junk in there?

 

[MBHockey]

i agree, the less haxies the better.

K.I.S.S.