Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.

Are you moving back to MBP 16" because of the dead of the butterfly keyboard?

  • Yes

    Votes: 12 21.1%
  • No

    Votes: 25 43.9%
  • Maybe. Need to see how the new keyboard behaves in the next few months

    Votes: 18 31.6%
  • Open to suggestions

    Votes: 2 3.5%

  • Total voters
    57

hajime

macrumors 604
Original poster
Jul 23, 2007
7,688
1,187
With the new type of keyboard and the dead of butterfly keyboard, how many of us are moving back to MBP?
 

JamesMike

macrumors 603
Nov 3, 2014
6,473
6,102
Oregon
I'm considering getting the 16 inch, I like what I have read about it, it might be a Christmas present for myself.
 

kazmac

macrumors G4
Mar 24, 2010
10,086
8,627
Any place but here or there....
I did. The 16" MBP keyboard is much more comfortable to type on, but it's more than the just the keyboard. The display, speakers and responsiveness are wonderful too.

Looking forward to getting mine later next week.
 

Expos of 1969

Contributor
Aug 25, 2013
4,741
9,253
No need to replace my 2013 MBP 13" yet. When (if) Apple puts the "new" keyboard in the MBP 13" (or 14") and it is proven to be extremely reliable I will then seriously consider it.
 

c0ppo

macrumors 68000
Feb 11, 2013
1,889
3,264
Nope. I do think it will probably be a great device, but touchbar is still there, and the 14nm Intel CPU. Will wait for 10nm, and then decide between probably Lenovo and Apple. Until then, my current device will do just fine.
 

LeeW

macrumors 601
Feb 5, 2017
4,121
8,919
Over here
Undecided, however, I doubt I will jump on the 16", I used the 13" as the size was more appropriate so I will likely wait and see if they do the same to that. I am in no rush and have changed the way of working to utilize Windows way more than before. I have lost trust/confidence in Apple they have a way to go before I consider any new purchase of a laptop from them.
 

maflynn

macrumors Haswell
May 3, 2009
73,308
43,134
I'm in the no camp.

I won't lie, I was (Sill?) tempted, but once the effects of the RDF and excitement wore off, I felt the new MBP still isn't the best fit for me.

What I like:
The 16" screen
New keyboard
living in the Apple ecosystem
MacOS scaling and other refinements

What I don't like
Sealed system (still cannot repair/upgrade/replace, much)
T2 and all of the hassles surrounding that
Touchbar
No 4k
Lack of ports (minor inconvenience due to owning a hub)
Keyboard while better isn't up to Thinkpad quality
Lack of operating system support (other then macOS) - I have two drives in my X1E, and I can dedicate one for Linux, I cannot do that with the MBP

Overall, I'd be giving up on windows, and for my workflow, windows is a better solution. I'm also enjoying the fact that I can play just about any game that interests me. I'm not a huge gamer, but the wealth of games means there's something for everyone. YEs, I can load windows on the MBP, but that means I'd probably need a larger SSD (read more $$$$) and I found splitting my time with two operating systems, I tended to just stick with macos. Plus, while you can run windows, it seemed more likely to run into driver issues with a mac then on a dedicated windows machine.

Finally, I just bought my Thinkpad a year ago, it doesn't make too much sense to drop another 2 to 3 grand on another laptop when it really won't materially improve my situation. It will give me macOS and back in the ecosystem

To summarize, the new Mac is a bit tempting to be sure, and the price point is decent, but why spend the money when I already have a solution on my desk, and I'll be giving up on a number of efficiencies and abilities with the switch
 

Queen6

macrumors G4
No, too little too late. Still suffers from being overly locked down solely for the benefit of Apple. I'm happy to wait and review the MBP in 2020, new 16" is simply a stopgap likely due to the negativity drawn by the hopeless Butterfly Keyboard and other issues.

For the MBP to be remotely considered usable as a professional device for many the SSD's need to be removable, hence the new stance by Microsoft with some Surface lines likely to encourage more corporate sales.

Q-6
 

LeeW

macrumors 601
Feb 5, 2017
4,121
8,919
Over here
as a professional device for many the SSD's need to be removable, hence the new stance by Microsoft with some Surface lines

Despite my initial enthusiasm with the new approach from Microsoft I am not so keen, taken from a review I read recently. Replace, not upgrade? It's something, I will give you that but..

"Microsoft Store service agents told the tech site that the SSDs inside the Surface Laptop 3 and Surface Pro X are replaceable, but not upgradable. Any practical difference between replacing and upgrading a drive is lost on us. Regardless, this means you can't buy a base model Surface Laptop 3 and avoid Microsoft's crazy-expensive storage upgrades by swapping in your own drive because doing so puts you at risk of voiding warranty should anything go awry."
 

Expos of 1969

Contributor
Aug 25, 2013
4,741
9,253
Despite my initial enthusiasm with the new approach from Microsoft I am not so keen, taken from a review I read recently. Replace, not upgrade? It's something, I will give you that but..

"Microsoft Store service agents told the tech site that the SSDs inside the Surface Laptop 3 and Surface Pro X are replaceable, but not upgradable. Any practical difference between replacing and upgrading a drive is lost on us. Regardless, this means you can't buy a base model Surface Laptop 3 and avoid Microsoft's crazy-expensive storage upgrades by swapping in your own drive because doing so puts you at risk of voiding warranty should anything go awry."
LeeW....Do you know if the battery in the Surface products is easily replaced or is it the same as Apple?
 

Expos of 1969

Contributor
Aug 25, 2013
4,741
9,253
So called "self-proclaimed experts" who post regularly about how wonderful Apple is and how Cook has a fiduciary responsibility to shareholders to make every dollar possible, always overlook the, in their view old-fashioned principled view that if a company is honest and upfront with its customers, it will be rewarded by repeat business.

It is no secret that Apple made quite an error with the keyboard it introduced in 2016. And to compound the error, instead of saying that it tried something and it learned that it was not the right direction. it claimed that nothing was a problem and only a minuscule number of customers were encountering issues. So minuscule that it then "tweaked" the keyboard at least twice over the next three years and introduced keyboard repair programs, the last one for a just released laptop!

So now, they have gone back to the old style keyboard which has proven over the years to work very well. Does Apple say honestly why it has changed from the butterfly keyboard? Of course not.

Here is how they justify the "new" keyboard...

New Magic Keyboard
The 16-inch MacBook Pro features a new Magic Keyboard with a refined scissor mechanism that delivers 1mm of key travel and a stable key feel, as well as an Apple-designed rubber dome that stores more potential energy for a responsive key press. Incorporating extensive research and user studies focused on human factors and key design, the 16-inch MacBook Pro delivers a keyboard with a comfortable, satisfying and quiet typing experience. The new Magic Keyboard also features a physical Escape key and an inverted-“T” arrangement for the arrow keys, along with Touch Bar and Touch ID, for a keyboard that delivers the best typing experience ever on a Mac notebook.

What a lot of BS when a simple "we realise that the direction we had taken over the past three years regarding the keyboard was not in the best interests of a substantial number of our laptop customers. As a result we have gone back to the popular and highly reliable scissor version".

Am I the only one who would respect this honesty and would be very likely to give Apple another chance? Or do most customers not give a damn these days and reward companies no matter what lies, mistruths and spin comes from the firm?
 

LeeW

macrumors 601
Feb 5, 2017
4,121
8,919
Over here
Am I the only one who would respect this honesty and would be very likely to give Apple another chance? Or do most customers not give a damn these days and reward companies no matter what lies, mistruths and spin comes from the firm?

Well no, but, show me more than an odd example of any tech company owning up to doing something wrong. There have been lots of real ****-ups across a range of providers over the years and I have never seen apologies from any of them. Not saying it is right, but not going to say this is something Apple alone does.

The only element that gives me some hope with the latest MBP is that something, significant has changed at Apple. To maintain a price point with the previous generation whilst bumping up several specs in a number of areas is unheard of, even letting the device be thicker and heavier. That is not the Apple of the last 10 years.

Sure, it's not perfect, SSD/RAM upgrades are still pricey, still difficult to service and so on but it's not just a step in the right direction, its a leap.

I get criticized for suggesting that the key change to achieve what they have in the 16" is mainly allowing the device to be bigger, in all ways. Who was the real architect behind thinner and lighter at every single opportunity? Ives. Who is not there to continue forcing the designs down that route? And look at what they have released!

I will hold on to some hope, but they already lost my trust after the MBP keyboard fiasco so I am not about to embrace them for this release, but I will give them some credit. The question is whether good things like this will continue.
 

Expos of 1969

Contributor
Aug 25, 2013
4,741
9,253
Well no, but, show me more than an odd example of any tech company owning up to doing something wrong. There have been lots of real ****-ups across a range of providers over the years and I have never seen apologies from any of them. Not saying it is right, but not going to say this is something Apple alone does.

The only element that gives me some hope with the latest MBP is that something, significant has changed at Apple. To maintain a price point with the previous generation whilst bumping up several specs in a number of areas is unheard of, even letting the device be thicker and heavier. That is not the Apple of the last 10 years.

Sure, it's not perfect, SSD/RAM upgrades are still pricey, still difficult to service and so on but it's not just a step in the right direction, its a leap.

I get criticized for suggesting that the key change to achieve what they have in the 16" is mainly allowing the device to be bigger, in all ways. Who was the real architect behind thinner and lighter at every single opportunity? Ives. Who is not there to continue forcing the designs down that route? And look at what they have released!

I will hold on to some hope, but they already lost my trust after the MBP keyboard fiasco so I am not about to embrace them for this release, but I will give them some credit. The question is whether good things like this will continue.
I agree that something has certainly changed. But I think it speaks volumes about the shortfalls of Cook if Ive did control things to that extent. Who the hell was in charge, the CEO or some lauded designer?
 

Queen6

macrumors G4
Despite my initial enthusiasm with the new approach from Microsoft I am not so keen, taken from a review I read recently. Replace, not upgrade? It's something, I will give you that but..

"Microsoft Store service agents told the tech site that the SSDs inside the Surface Laptop 3 and Surface Pro X are replaceable, but not upgradable. Any practical difference between replacing and upgrading a drive is lost on us. Regardless, this means you can't buy a base model Surface Laptop 3 and avoid Microsoft's crazy-expensive storage upgrades by swapping in your own drive because doing so puts you at risk of voiding warranty should anything go awry."

Drives are removable by competent techs, as for many individuals and companies the content of the drives is not permitted to be passed to third parties. In the event of a failure the drive can be swapped the user continues without any breach of internal security standards and or contractual obligations.

This is why Surface is moving to removable drives, not for the DIY gang. Also the same reason why the MBP is firmly relegated as a consumer product as long as Apple persists with soldered SSD's with the primary benefits being to reduce manufacturing costs and place higher margins on it's own compulsory inhouse upgrades.

If looking for an easily upgradable platform, ThinkPad still remains to be one of the better ones.

Q-6
 

cardfan

macrumors 601
Mar 23, 2012
4,148
5,214
I’m software first then hardware. Catalina is the reason I’m reluctant to upgrade right now. But I am glad to see the new kb. Bodes well for the Mac line.
 

LeeW

macrumors 601
Feb 5, 2017
4,121
8,919
Over here
as for many individuals and companies the content of the drives is not permitted to be passed to third parties. In the event of a failure the drive can be swapped the user continues without any breach of internal security standards and or contractual obligations.

I get that, but it kills all the enthusiasm in several other threads where the vast majority were interested only as it allowed some servicing and upgradeability. The SL3 is not so attractive now for all those people. Nobody is focussing at all on the data breach aspect that I see.

Microsoft played it large with "removable SSD" but their fine print is clear, only by a "Skilled Technician", well we know what means, the same as Apple telling us the RAM is upgradeable in the Mac Mini, only if you take it to them to do it to avoid warranty breaches.

But I don't really buy into the reason being about data breaches although it is a benefit for some, their volume corporates (that is who matters to them most here) don't allow sensitive data on individual devices anymore, it is done through a tunnel, connecting to a VM. None of the devices I see being handed out in large corporates are machines that allow removable drives, if that was a big thing, they would have insisted on it, they never have in my 30 years of working in several.
 

maflynn

macrumors Haswell
May 3, 2009
73,308
43,134
I’m software first then hardware. Catalina is the reason I’m reluctant to upgrade right now. But I am glad to see the new kb. Bodes well for the Mac line.
So many people are coming down on Catalina, is it a bad/buggy OS?
 
  • Like
Reactions: GalileoSeven

Queen6

macrumors G4
So many people are coming down on Catalina, is it a bad/buggy OS?

As long stated Apple needs to do something spectacular to attract people back, fixing issues isn't spectacular, merely expected and of late Apple's track record is sketchy at best.

Apple want's a professional customers Apple needs to learn to serve the customer's need, not solely itself as it currently does.

No changes here...

Q-6
 
  • Like
Reactions: SteveJUAE

LeeW

macrumors 601
Feb 5, 2017
4,121
8,919
Over here
So many people are coming down on Catalina, is it a bad/buggy OS?

With the Mac Mini, there has been a significant issue, HDMI to HDMI with a 4k screen is causing a lot of issues, I ended up having to switch my USB-C cables as the existing ones just wouldn't work. Now that may have been that the cables were old and outdated, I don't know.

Other than that it has been working great for me and I have not personally heard anything in the negative amongst those I know.

Loving sidecar, that I can open an image for editing in Affinity on my Mac and when I need to do some finer work I can just move the window onto the iPad and then use the pencil to do what I want and return to the mac.

It was a bit buggy on first release in some areas, 10.5.1 sorted that, for me at least. Other than that I personally have had no issues with it.
 

LeeW

macrumors 601
Feb 5, 2017
4,121
8,919
Over here
Another direction I have been moving in is using the iPad Pro a lot more, got the keyboard for it and whilst pricey I actually love typing on it. I use it for a lot of things on the go which I would normally use the MBP for then when I get back to my desk continue with the Mac Mini. Actually enjoying doing things that way and again, more portable than the MBP 13" and just as powerful if not more for what I use it for.

Then for everything else PC.

Sticking with that for now, was nearly impulse buying the 16" but I stopped myself, I wouldn't have kept it, I know I would be like "too big..".
 

hajime

macrumors 604
Original poster
Jul 23, 2007
7,688
1,187
I tried it in store. The Atmos sound system is the best I have experienced. Better than any Thinkpads I tried. Keyboard is like the pre-butterfly ones. The P53's keyboard is a bit more comfortable to type but the new magic keyboard is also good. The laptop is also lighter than my P53. AC adapter is also lighter than that for my P53. Problems I have are: 1. No bootcamp drivers for running Windows natively yet. This is strange as previous ones all had bootcamp Windows support. 2. Cannot install Linux. 3. Does not have Nvidia GPU nor can I use eGPU.

Can anybody think of solutions for these three issues?
 

Queen6

macrumors G4
Another direction I have been moving in is using the iPad Pro a lot more, got the keyboard for it and whilst pricey I actually love typing on it. I use it for a lot of things on the go which I would normally use the MBP for then when I get back to my desk continue with the Mac Mini. Actually enjoying doing things that way and again, more portable than the MBP 13" and just as powerful if not more for what I use it for.

Then for everything else PC.

Sticking with that for now, was nearly impulse buying the 16" but I stopped myself, I wouldn't have kept it, I know I would be like "too big..".

IPP is to too limited for my needs, I by far prefer a solution with a full desktop OS. I use a W10 2in1 UMPC on the go, a diminutive killer solution. The 16" MBP IMO is just a stop gap, a band aid, too little, too late...

Q-6
 

kazmac

macrumors G4
Mar 24, 2010
10,086
8,627
Any place but here or there....
So called "self-proclaimed experts" who post regularly about how wonderful Apple is and how Cook has a fiduciary responsibility to shareholders to make every dollar possible, always overlook the, in their view old-fashioned principled view that if a company is honest and upfront with its customers, it will be rewarded by repeat business.

It is no secret that Apple made quite an error with the keyboard it introduced in 2016. And to compound the error, instead of saying that it tried something and it learned that it was not the right direction. it claimed that nothing was a problem and only a minuscule number of customers were encountering issues. So minuscule that it then "tweaked" the keyboard at least twice over the next three years and introduced keyboard repair programs, the last one for a just released laptop!

So now, they have gone back to the old style keyboard which has proven over the years to work very well. Does Apple say honestly why it has changed from the butterfly keyboard? Of course not.

Here is how they justify the "new" keyboard...

New Magic Keyboard
The 16-inch MacBook Pro features a new Magic Keyboard with a refined scissor mechanism that delivers 1mm of key travel and a stable key feel, as well as an Apple-designed rubber dome that stores more potential energy for a responsive key press. Incorporating extensive research and user studies focused on human factors and key design, the 16-inch MacBook Pro delivers a keyboard with a comfortable, satisfying and quiet typing experience. The new Magic Keyboard also features a physical Escape key and an inverted-“T” arrangement for the arrow keys, along with Touch Bar and Touch ID, for a keyboard that delivers the best typing experience ever on a Mac notebook.

What a lot of BS when a simple "we realise that the direction we had taken over the past three years regarding the keyboard was not in the best interests of a substantial number of our laptop customers. As a result we have gone back to the popular and highly reliable scissor version".

Am I the only one who would respect this honesty and would be very likely to give Apple another chance? Or do most customers not give a damn these days and reward companies no matter what lies, mistruths and spin comes from the firm?

All good points here. Yes, I would appreciate transparency and honesty. Apple has been forced to admit they've screwed up massively recently, but I think the class action lawsuits and bad press have pushed them into doing that.

At the same time, I am under too much stress to make the jump to PCs (and those companies do not always come clean either). So, I jumped. Based on a couple of hours testing several 16" MBPs' keyboards and the overall experience at the 5th Avenue Apple store, I felt like I made the right choice for me.

Do I like that I keep supporting a company that makes some scumbag decisions and keeps things too close to their chests? Not really.

However, my health is way more important than continuously stressing myself out over switching or not. I immediately liked using this new MBP (as compared to previous gens and the current iMacs), so I knew I had to try it. And here I am.

If I was a Windows witch (meaning understanding the OS inside and out), I'd still be wondering what to buy.

Apple has a very long way to go, but they are beginning to understand the financial and other issues of their appeasing the shareholders first.

So no all is not forgiven here, seeing touch irresponsiveness in mom's 2018 iPad is driving me nuts*, so I truly hope they just continue on this path of trying to make things right in all of their hardware and software.

*I think I might trade it in for a 2019 for her.

@hajime why can't you use an eGPU with the 16" MBP?
 
Last edited:
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.