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Women vs men in music

leekohler

leekohler

macrumors G5
Original poster
Dec 22, 2004
14,164
26
Chicago, Illinois
I've always found it fascinating that women tend to emulate men in popular music. When they don't, it's made difficult for them, or at least "challenging".

Let me clarify. Women dominate Broadway and country music- two genres not considered "serious" by most folks in music.

But when it comes to rock, blues and what a lot of people consider "serious" music, women tend to fall by the wayside. The rarities are Billie Holiday, Janis Joplin, Diamanda Galas and... who?

I guess my point is this- women tend to try to emulate men in rock, when they should just be themselves.

I think many women have a very distinct voice that they silence in the interest of being popular. I find that disappointing. We need more Janis Joplins, Billie Holidays and Amy Winehouses. Original voices that have never been heard before. Case in point being Portishead.

That's just my own rant. I would like to see more ladies like Siouxie Sioux step up and make us listen.

Ladies- music needs you.
 
leekohler said:
I've always found it fascinating that women tend to emulate men in popular music. When they don't, it's made difficult for them, or at least "challenging".

Let me clarify. Women dominate Broadway and country music- two genres not considered "serious" by most folks in music.
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I do not quite agree. I mean there are people like Garth Brooks, Rascal Flatts, Lonestar, Kenny Chesney, Tom Petty, Keith Urban, etc. In fact, I can name more men country/folk stars than women ones
But when it comes to rock, blues and what a lot of people consider "serious" music, women tend to fall by the wayside. The rarities are Billie Holiday, Janis Joplin, Diamanda Galas and... who?
Click to expand...

Alicia Keys, Mary J. Blige, Fiona Apple, Jennifer Hudson , many more in that genre that I could state

I LOVE Fiona Apple's music. Totally awesome with a sweet voice
I guess my point is this- women tend to try to emulate men in rock, when they should just be themselves.

I think many women have a very distinct voice that they silence in the interest of being popular. I find that disappointing. We need more Janis Joplins, Billie Holidays and Amy Winehouses. Original voices that have never been heard before. Case in point being Portishead.

That's just my own rant. I would like to see more ladies like Siouxie Sioux step up and make us listen.
Click to expand...


I am not sure I quite agree with your assumption tbh though it does make me think about it more than I oherwise would have
 
I'm a big fan of Rammstein. You tell me which women even make that kind of music and I'll gladly listen to them.

On the other hand, isn't there a bunch of girlie rockers that are quite individual such as L7 and Pat Benatar? Also, there are lots of girls that sing Euro Dance/House music very well and don't emulate men of that genre much.
 
leekohler said:
That's just my own rant.
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Women emulate men?

Both sexes "emulate" each in so many ways. David Bowie made a career out of androgyny. Hair and make-up have been a part of rock and roll for decades. Men and women constantly influence the choices and styles that each other affects. It's never as simple as your OP seeks to make it.

It's a quiet Friday night. Have one last one and go to bed. In the morning you'll have a hard time remembering the deep insight that gave birth to this rant.
 
dukebound85 said:
I do not quite agree. I mean there are people like Garth Brooks, Rascal Flatts, Lonestar, Kenny Chesney, Tom Petty, Keith Urban, etc. In fact, I can name more men country/folk stars than women ones


Alicia Keys, Mary J. Blige, Fiona Apple, Jennifer Hudson , many more in that genre that I could state

I LOVE Fiona Apple's music. Totally awesome with a sweet voice


I am not sure I quite agree with your assumption tbh though it does make me think about it more than I oherwise would have
Click to expand...

Fiona Apple blew it with her last one. The original recording was so good.
 
I don't really see that at all. Music emulates itself. Hearing something new is a rarity and the biology of the musician has very little to do with it. Naming what is truly original is difficult. Off the top of my head, the two that come to mind for me are:

Captain Beefheart

Laurie Anderson

I am sure others could name more, and I am sure that there will be disagreements. But those above and anybody else you might name have plenty of musical roots themselves.

If you are arguing that women are forced to conform to a small number of particular roles in order to get ahead in the music business and be successful, then I think that would have a bit more traction. On the other hand, something similar applies to male musicians as well. But that is a property of the modern music business, not of music itself.

There is also the question: is it better to do it first, or to do it best? Originality, in itself, may not be worth as much as we might think. After all, if you look at the structure of music itself, what seems most pleasing to our brains are variations on a theme; exposition, development, recapitulation; verse, chorus, verse.

To my mind, there is nothing wrong with emulation in the slightest.
 
Peace said:
Bonnie Raitt is a great blues guitarist/singer.
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Yes, she is. I just guess I'm lamenting what makes women and men different from each other in music. I think women have a unique voice, and that voice is NOT Christina Aguilera. Or Madonna. Or anything even close.

It's original and interesting.
 
leekohler said:
Yes, she is. I just guess I'm lamenting what makes women and men different from each other in music. I think women have a unique voice, and that voice is NOT Christina Aguilera. Or Madonna. Or anything even close.

It's original and interesting.
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I would agree. There are plenty of good and interesting female voices out there though I guess musical tastes come into play. Miss me some Portishead and Siouxsie. Karen O off the top of my head.
 
jecapaga said:
I would agree. There are plenty of good and interesting female voices out there though I guess musical tastes come into play. Miss me some Portishead and Siouxsie. Karen O off the top of my head.
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Exactly. I just feel like there are certain things women can do musically that men can't. And I feel that women hold themselves back.
 
I disagree with your entire post. Both men and women make rock and all sorts of other music, and are successful in doing so. I wouldn't necessarily say this is emulating men. It's a style of music, so of course the music women produce are going to sound like the music that men produce in the same genre. Is it 'emulating' because men started 'rock'?

For all the 'good' female musicians you listed, there are lots of bad ones. I don't see how this is different for men. Aren't the talented men making bad music that they hold little control over being 'silenced' for the sake of being popular as well?

Sorry, but I don't understand how you came to the conclusion you did. :confused:
 
Some musicgenres are dominated more by one sexe than the other due to physical differences of the larynx. Rock music used to be about men in tights, screaming in a high pitch voice, while nowadays the trend is a more gruntly type of voice.*

Although there are always exceptions in musictrends like Wolfmother who do the opposite and score hits with that.

*The way the voice develops from childhood ~ puberty ~ Adulthood is hormone driven. Castrate a man before his puberty and his voice will stay childlike. Hence the early days of choirboys when there was not much difference in music than classic (church) music, and the Justin Timerlakes of the golden age were castrated to have the best voice for as long as possible.
 
Lee, I think you need to spend more time with women ::)

I went through my iTunes collection and I'm trying to find a woman pretending to be a man. I couldn't find one, maybe you can:

Alicia Keys, Annie Lennox (OK, maybe her ::) ), Avril Lavigne, the Bangles, Beyonce, Black-Eyed Peas, the Corrs, Dixie Chicks, Fleetwood Mac, Joan Osborne, Kate Voegele, Katy Perry, Kelly Clarkson, Chrissie Hynde, Kim Wilde, Lady Gaga, Mary Chapin Carpenter, Melissa Etheridge, Natalie Merchant, Natasha Bedingfield, P!nk, Regina Spektor, the Runaways, Sarah MacLachlan, Sheryl Crow, the Ting Tings.

These women populate my iPod next to Dylan, Springsteen, Bowie and BTO. (And although I don't have any Christina Aguilera, I've always admired her chops. "Candyman" is cool.)

These women ARE all being themselves and contributing to their own brand of "rock."

Maybe after a good night's sleep it's apparent. ::)

mt
 
I couldn't disagree with you any more Lee.

Some of my favorites off the top of my head you should listen too, and use Pandora to find others:

Sleater-Kinney (on indefinite hiatus since 2006:()
Cat Power
She & Him (Zoey Deschanel)
Lali Puna
XX
The Yeah Yeah Yeahs (It's Blitz! - The best album of 2009 IMO)
Regina Spektor (some hit and miss songs)

EDIT: I'd maybe pull the XX from that list after giving their last album a listen to again.
 
killerrobot said:
I couldn't disagree with you any more Lee.

Some of my favorites off the top of my head you should listen too, and use Pandora to find others:

Sleater-Kinney (on indefinite hiatus since 2006:()
Cat Power
She & Him (Zoey Deschanel)
Lali Puna
XX
The Yeah Yeah Yeahs (It's Blitz! - The best album of 2009 IMO)
Regina Spektor (some hit and miss songs)
Click to expand...

She & Him (Zoey Deschanel)

Their first gig on TV. Conan.
 
mysterytramp said:
Lee, I think you need to spend more time with women ::)

I went through my iTunes collection and I'm trying to find a woman pretending to be a man. I couldn't find one, maybe you can:

Alicia Keys, Annie Lennox (OK, maybe her ::) ), Avril Lavigne, the Bangles, Beyonce, Black-Eyed Peas, the Corrs, Dixie Chicks, Fleetwood Mac, Joan Osborne, Kate Voegele, Katy Perry, Kelly Clarkson, Chrissie Hynde, Kim Wilde, Lady Gaga, Mary Chapin Carpenter, Melissa Etheridge, Natalie Merchant, Natasha Bedingfield, P!nk, Regina Spektor, the Runaways, Sarah MacLachlan, Sheryl Crow, the Ting Tings.
Click to expand...

++

And how come no one has mentioned Kate Bush? A fantastically influential artist... who can rock out when she wants to.

This is pretty unique:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEVMfG8z490
 
Guys, I doubt Lee was saying that there aren't many good female musicians. I think he meant that many female musicians mimic the style of male musicians and don't have their own "thing".

Personally, I disagree with that interpretation as well, but most of the above posts only point out that there are good female musicians.
 
Very few artists really blaze their own trail musically. Most acts are derivative, based on those who came before them. And since women are underrepresented in the musical field, it's not surprising that fewer still have blazed their own way.

That said, no mention of fabulous female musicians would be complete without the name Joni Mitchell.

And Lee, you might want to consider putting The Runaways on your Netflix queue.
 
mactastic said:
Very few artists really blaze their own trail musically. Most acts are derivative, based on those who came before them. And since women are underrepresented in the musical field, it's not surprising that fewer still have blazed their own way.

That said, no mention of fabulous female musicians would be complete without the name Joni Mitchell.

And Lee, you might want to consider putting The Runaways on your Netflix queue.
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Joni Mitchell at The Last Waltz.

Oh and Joan Jett and The Blackhearts Lee.
 
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