Work Problem

[Scepticalscribe]

I agree. It all comes down to trust and it's sad how many employers don't trust their employees enough to do their jobs without being constantly monitored like school children. In my case, my boss is in another state so he has no choice but to trust me (although, I'd like to think that my telecommuting privileges would be exactly the same if he were here ).

I'm not sure what has changed in the OPs situation, but my guess is that he is being viewed as a poor cultural fit. He has indicated that the company has changed a lot since he's been there and he's not pleased with where things have gone and are heading. Usually, it's hard to hide these feelings; they come out and I have a hunch that his superiors are aware of his disenchantment with the company.

An excellent, and well reasoned post, especially the last paragraph, which amply repays re-reading several times.

 

[puma1552]

I'm not sure what has changed in the OPs situation, but my guess is that he is being viewed as a poor cultural fit. He has indicated that the company has changed a lot since he's been there and he's not pleased with where things have gone and are heading. Usually, it's hard to hide these feelings; they come out and I have a hunch that his superiors are aware of his disenchantment with the company.

This is a good post, and that very well may be true. We've gotten so corporate and the morale in the office has slipped so far that hardly anyone that I actually talk to (I do get along well with all coworkers, turning out good product is certainly part of the reason why I would imagine) is happy anymore, and hasn't been for some time. So I figure management is either completely oblivious which would be pretty bad, or is aware and just doesn't really care - not sure which would be worse, but probably the latter. Again, reactive management and not proactive management - assuming management did know quite a few employees aren't happy, it might not be a bad idea to try and find out why and rectify the situation.

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

Forget my previous advice then. Just ignore the email, keep your head down and join as many recruitment agencies as you can to find a new job. Get your LinkedIn profile up to date and just get out of there.

I would certainly explain your grievances in your resignation letter. I resigned from a job earlier this year after only being there 3 months as my employer thought nothing of paying people 2 weeks late each month and sometimes split pay into 2 payments. I secretly found a new job and resigned on the day I finally got all my pay. The cheeky bugger threatened to take me to court for giving no notice to which I responded that I would happily attend. I never got a court summons lol.

 

[deany]

Hi OP

Late, but just chipping in.

"Dealing with inclement weather has never been a problem at this company; if you awoke to foul weather, you were always trusted to make your own adult decision about working from home."

• Why was this policy changed?

• Has the policy changed for all 100 employees in all three locations.?

• You mention your 'boss' is the Office manager. Who does your boss report to?
Does the owner(s) work at your location or one of the other two?

• Contract of Employment assumed, after 5 years I hope so! was -

" Earlier this year a severe weather policy was developed, which is a pretty incoherent policy that fails to stay on message. It's not entirely clear what the policy really is anymore - it's like nobody proof read it"

was this added and ammended to your Contract of Employment and filed ie the copy you got was added and updated to your Contract of Employment?

• with respect, is there a reason you refer your employer as ".....at this company"

I'd be upset if a member of staff used that expression with regard to the company they are a part of, especially if the member of staff had been with us for 5 years - rather than say "my employer" "my place of work" "the company I work for" - or were you seething when you wrote it, and no longer felt valued and trusted?

• Has the feeling of trust and being valued 'gone'?
I have a feeling you will say 'yes'
if so what would it take for you to feel valued and trusted again?

 

[5105973]

Good luck, to you. A work environment can go south pretty badly and pretty fast when managers start dating each other and if that in turn leads them to start screwing over their subordinates as well, pardon the expression, but pun intended. Some people can date without disrupting the workplace...but others...yikes.

It's never happened to me, thank goodness, but I've seen friends have to put up with it. Things just start deteriorating, especially if the happy couple starts ganging up on people that one or the other half of the couple has even the tiniest grievance with. I don't know for sure if that's what's going on here, but if it is...run Forrest, run!

Speaking of worrying about appearances, is there any chance that your former schoolmate cooled toward you because she's picked up on the fact you're kind of implying or giving off the vibe she's the office darling because she's dating someone up a rung or two on the corporate ladder? If she's worried about appearances, well she'd better look to her own situation and how things can look to other coworkers when you do start dating up in the office. Maybe she is legitimately popular because she is really just that awesome. And maybe you're assuming stuff about her success there that isn't true. Or maybe it is true and she's faring well there because of who she's romancing. Either way, you're oozing vibes there. Make sure you keep a lid on them at work.

I'd guess that's why the military has so many regulations on fraternization, to avoid this sort of messy destabilizing psychological crap. You seem reasonable enough and have taken speculation on your motivations and behavior and critiques of your responses fairly calmly, even when I was bristling on your behalf. So I'm guessing even if you're no longer fitting in there, it's not entirely your fault, and perhaps not at all.

Especially if the boss responds basically with RTFM when you already explained you read it and need clarification. Oh I suppose he thought you were challenging his decree and didn't want to be stuck arguing it over with you. But jeez, you're not a toddler and don't deserve to be dismissed like one. Good Lord...people like that...If you'd like, I'd be happy to go over there and smack him upside the head with the employee handbook.

Lol, did you notice that on this thread you attracted responses from people with member names like Old Codger, Curmudgeonette, and GrumpyMom?

The grump is strong in this thread.

 

[Plutonius]

Funny, there's no policy against intra-office superior/subordinate relationships. This is a prime example of why most companies don't allow it

I have never seen a company that doesn't allow it.

 

[Apple fanboy]

I have never seen a company that doesn't allow it.

Wouldn't it be against your human rights to dictate who you can and can't see.
We have a policy of only employing ugly women where I work so it's not an issue!

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Good luck, to you. A work environment can go south pretty badly and pretty fast when managers start dating each other and if that in turn leads them to start screwing over their subordinates as well, pardon the expression, but pun intended. Some people can date without disrupting the workplace...but others...yikes.

It's never happened to me, thank goodness, but I've seen friends have to put up with it. Things just start deteriorating, especially if the happy couple starts ganging up on people that one or the other half of the couple has even the tiniest grievance with. I don't know for sure if that's what's going on here, but if it is...run Forrest, run!

Speaking of worrying about appearances, is there any chance that your former schoolmate cooled toward you because she's picked up on the fact you're kind of implying or giving off the vibe she's the office darling because she's dating someone up a rung or two on the corporate ladder? If she's worried about appearances, well she'd better look to her own situation and how things can look to other coworkers when you do start dating up in the office. Maybe she is legitimately popular because she is really just that awesome. And maybe you're assuming stuff about her success there that isn't true. Or maybe it is true and she's faring well there because of who she's romancing. Either way, you're oozing vibes there. Make sure you keep a lid on them at work.

I'd guess that's why the military has so many regulations on fraternization, to avoid this sort of messy destabilizing psychological crap. You seem reasonable enough and have taken speculation on your motivations and behavior and critiques of your responses fairly calmly, even when I was bristling on your behalf. So I'm guessing even if you're no longer fitting in there, it's not entirely your fault, and perhaps not at all.

Especially if the boss responds basically with RTFM when you already explained you read it and need clarification. Oh I suppose he thought you were challenging his decree and didn't want to be stuck arguing it over with you. But jeez, you're not a toddler and don't deserve to be dismissed like one. Good Lord...people like that...If you'd like, I'd be happy to go over there and smack him upside the head with the employee handbook.

Lol, did you notice that on this thread you attracted responses from people with member names like Old Codger, Curmudgeonette, and GumpyMom?

The grump is strong in this thread.

View attachment 681320

Excellent and beautifully argued post, @GrumpyMom and very well said.

I have never seen a company that doesn't allow it.

Agreed.

Wouldn't it be against your human rights to dictate who you can and can't see.
We have a policy of only employing ugly women where I work so it's not an issue!

Sigh. @Apple fanboy that is a silly post, and one that - completely - misses the point.

@GrumpyMom has it right, and I have seen such situations play out where the putative lovers can indeed gang up on - quite unfairly - individuals who might have crossed one of them in the past.

Very sensible and thoughtful post, on theta the OP should read closely.

 

[BeeGood]

Wouldn't it be against your human rights to dictate who you can and can't see.

Um. You can date whoever you want, but employment is not a human right. So no, if you get canned for dipping in the company ink the U.N. is not going to get involved.

 

[Plutonius]

Um. You can date whoever you want, but employment is not a human right. So no, if you get canned for dipping in the company ink the U.N. is not going to get involved.

Do you actually know any company that restricts dating among employees ?

 

[BeeGood]

Do you actually know any company that restricts dating among employees ?

All companies that I've worked for (post-college) prohibit dating your direct manager. I'll have to check tomorrow when I go back to the office, but I'm pretty sure that my employer (a large US commercial bank) prohibits dating a superior of any kind.

The thing is, companies don't typically enforce this because it's usually kept quiet. If you're HR, the last thing you want to do is go through the seedy legwork of proving employees are secretly dating (especially if they're going through the effort of hiding it). You're just asking to get sued when you start snooping around in employees' private lives. So its not addressed until it becomes an obvious problem.

 

[puma1552]

Most companies that I know of - in my discussions with peers about this issue - do not allow it; I get a sense of a general trend for most companies to require one person to leave the company, or at the very least leave that group/division so there is no conflict of interest.

I think I mentioned this before but i should say again that for the last couple years, it hasn't been a problem - they've kept it out of the office and handled it pretty well - but it becomes an issue when the subordinate has (or perceives) an issue with someone else in the office, as seems to be the case now.

In any regards, back to work tomorrow.

 

[kschendel]

I have never seen a company that doesn't allow it.

I've never been in a company that DID allow it, and I've worked for Microsoft, CA, and about a half-dozen small companies.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Dating someone of your own grade is one thing, and can carry its own issues but it need not be a problem.

The problems tend to arise when you have two people dating who are at different grades, - especially if the junior of the pair has already just been elevated - and - as @GrumpyMom has already pointed out, that is when workplace personal dynamics can become a bit problematic.

 

[D.T.]

I've never been in a company that DID allow it, and I've worked for Microsoft, CA, and about a half-dozen small companies.

Yeah, in my (and close friends) fairly diverse experience, it is _way_ less common to allow it (vs. not), from large public/private enterprises to small < 20 people shops.

 

[yaxomoxay]

Here (municipal), same level or different dept is frowned upon but nothing that will attract much attention. Different levels, esp. if someone is a supervisor is a big no-no and might be grounds for nepotism investigations.

 

[Tomorrow]

I've worked for several companies and never heard of a policy prohibiting workplace romance/relationships. It would theoretically only come into play if one person was in the other's chain of command.

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

I used to work for a company that had in the handbook that office relationships were not advised. If it became a problem that overspilled into the work environment they would get rid of one person in the couple. That happened on one occasion.

 

[BeeGood]

So I scanned through my employee handbook and I actually didn't see anything explicitly prohibiting workplace relationships, but I did see a lot of things that would make it extremely difficult, like rules against gift giving at certain amounts, nepotism and the "appearance" of a conflict of interest. I think the last one is what basically prohibits it. You can't be in a relationship with a superior without it looking like you might be getting favors.

In any event, I believe that regardless of what your employer says officially, it's just not a great idea. There are just too many ways for it to turn very uncomfortable.

 

[yaxomoxay]

So I scanned through my employee handbook and I actually didn't see anything explicitly prohibiting workplace relationships, but I did see a lot of things that would make it extremely difficult, like rules against gift giving at certain amounts, nepotism and the "appearance" of a conflict of interest. I think the last one is what basically prohibits it. You can't be in a relationship with a superior without it looking like you might be getting favors.

In any event, I believe that regardless of what your employer says officially, it's just not a great idea. There are just too many ways for it to turn very uncomfortable.

This 1000x.
Last year we had a case of a divorce that ended up in two colleagues going out together, then she decided to date another co-worker, then she decided to get back with the now ex-husband just to find out that she was pregnant by no one really knows who. Turned out pretty ugly.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Do you actually know any company that restricts dating among employees ?

The US military has strong opinions on dating between officers and enlisted personnel, and - from what I have read - actively discourages it.

Some police forces will transfer personnel once they start dating, especially if there is a difference in rank, or grade.

Again, if the happy couple work in different departments in an organisation, or hold the same grade/rank, potential problems are a lot less pronounced.

I used to work for a company that had in the handbook that office relationships were not advised. If it became a problem that overspilled into the work environment they would get rid of one person in the couple. That happened on one occasion.

Something tells me that the less senior individual is the person let go, or transferred, or who has been got rid of in this situation.

 

[ProjectManager101]

I am having the same problem at work. here is the things, there are battles that you can win right away and there are other battles that are about resistant, like boxing, you can keep hitting each other until one falls.

In my case I was assigned two upper managers with no experience because each was a friend of an investor. Within the first week I sent a report saying they were incapable. They want everybody else to look bad so they can look good. The thing is that they are having such mess with providers and clients almost hitting lawsuits.

So, I realize this was just a matter of resisting and let them screw themselves and they have bene doing it very well. It seems they will be out this month.

So, you have tow choices, you can look for another job where you will face the same problem or you can just ignore her or outsmart her and let her fail with someone else, eventually she will gain a reputation of a trouble maker.

Take those emails where she was ignoring the rules, and start taking notes of all the troubles she is creating. You will be bullied as long you like to be the target.

 

[Plutonius]

The US military has strong opinions on dating between officers and enlisted personnel, and - from what I have read - actively discourages it.

Some police forces will transfer personnel once they start dating, especially if there is a difference in rank, or grade.

Again, if the happy couple work in different departments in an organisation, or hold the same grade/rank, potential problems are a lot less pronounced.



Something tells me that the less senior individual is the person let go, or transferred, or who has been got rid of in this situation.

As far as the military, that's also what I hear. I have just never seen it in private industry.

For those in private industry that have the rule against dating other employees, is it written down as company policy in the HR handbook or is it just an unofficial rule that is followed ?

 

[Scepticalscribe]

As far as the military, that's also what I hear. I have just never seen it in private industry.

For those in private industry that have the rule against dating other employees, is it written down as company policy in the HR handbook or is it just an unofficial rule that is followed ?

I have never worked in the private sector - only education, and government (or for international bodies).

Thus far, the discussion on dating has focussed on firstly, the possible negative effects for others (as expressed so well by @GrumpyMom - and I have seen this played out in practice) if one party of the happy couple dislikes a subordinate, 2) by the perception - as mentioned by several - that the junior partner of the subordinate couple may be considered to have been the recipient of unfair favour, and 3) as correctly pointed out by @yaxomoxay - if and when the happy couple fall out, the damage they can leave in their wake - especially if jointly they allowed abuses of power or authority to exist - can be considerable. (This, too, I have witnessed).

There is a fourth dimension which I have seen also play out in some international contexts and it is this: An individual holding a senior position - usually male and middle aged, or older - seeks to date a (younger, female) subordinate who reports to him. (And I have seen that one play out, too).

In truth, it is exceptionally difficult for her to turn him down, not without adverse consequences, or repercussions.

 

[BeeGood]

There is a fourth dimension which I have seen also play out in some international contexts and it is this: An individual holding a senior position - usually male and middle aged, or older - seeks to date a (younger, female) subordinate who reports to him. (And I have seen that one play out, too). In truth, it is exceptionally difficult for her to turn him down, not without adverse repercussions.

Another great point. If you don't discourage office relationships, you're creating an environment that makes coercion and sexual harassment much harder to identify and deal with.