Workflow

[dsemf]

I might get in trouble for posting this. If so, I apologize.

Even though it refers to the Green Button thread, specifically post #310, it is not about the Green Button or any button for that matter.

In post #310, bladerunner describes his workflow. Although I have read every post in that thread, I don't recall seeing a clear description of the workflow. It did become very clear with post #310.

My interpretation is: His requirements are that each application use the entire desktop space but also display the menu bar and dock. The productivity gains come from maximum screen real estate for current application combined with easy application switching using the dock. To me, this scenario is optimized for mouse based activities.

My workflow, while very different, works for me.

The Dock is always hidden, and with El Capitan the menu bar is also hidden (I like a minimalist desktop). All applications are full screen with a couple of exceptions. Application switching is done using cmd-Tab, 3 finger swipe or Mission Control. I also use a lot of keyboard short cuts. I really like the cmd-# for tab switching in Safari. By using pinned tabs, I now only have 1 Safari window instead of 3.

DS

 

[leman]

If your is a comment on an existing thread, why don't you post it there? I fail to see any significant message here that would warrant opening a new thread.

 

[redheeler]

If your is a comment on an existing thread, why don't you post it there? I fail to see any significant message here that would warrant opening a new thread.

That thread is closed.

 

[redheeler]

My workflow, while very different, works for me.

The Dock is always hidden, and with El Capitan the menu bar is also hidden (I like a minimalist desktop). All applications are full screen with a couple of exceptions. Application switching is done using cmd-Tab, 3 finger swipe or Mission Control. I also use a lot of keyboard short cuts. I really like the cmd-# for tab switching in Safari. By using pinned tabs, I now only have 1 Safari window instead of 3.

DS

What size screen do you have? I use fullscreen apps all the time on my 13" rMBP where screen space is a premium. Switching between them using the Trackpad is very fluid.

On the 27" iMac I prefer to keep the menu bar and dock visible, and have altered the green button with BetterTouchTool so it doesn't go fullscreen like on the rMBP.

 

[dsemf]

What size screen do you have? I use fullscreen apps all the time on my 13" rMBP where screen space is a premium. Switching between them using the Trackpad is very fluid.

On the 27" iMac I prefer to keep the menu bar and dock visible, and have altered the green button with BetterTouchTool so it doesn't go fullscreen like on the rMBP.

2013 13" MBA. Before that was a 15" MBP so I have used only laptops since 2007.

DS

 

[bladerunner2000]

My interpretation is: His requirements are that each application use the entire desktop space but also display the menu bar and dock. The productivity gains come from maximum screen real estate for current application combined with easy application switching using the dock. To me, this scenario is optimized for mouse based activities.

Yes, but also easy editing of whatever project I'm working on with the ability to have the menu bar visible at all times and the ability to quickly select the drop down menus. Ie; when working in Indesign I need fast access to Edit, Layout, View, etc;

Those being hidden makes it a pain in the ass to work with the creative suite.

The dock being visible lets me *immediately* switch to another application, like Photoshop and make adjustments to a document thats linked to from the Indesign document I'm working on. A lot of times I'll have other files linked from illustrator as well. Some people like to use spaces, but I don't use a touchpad and even if I did, no chance in hell would I be flipping back and forth through multiple spaces of full screen apps. Having said that, drag and drop DOES NOT FUNCTION WELL EITHER when you have so many elements linked together between all the apps.

Apple NEEDS to fix the green button disaster; just add the option of whether or not we want the have menu bar and dock still visible and turn off that ridiculously slow animation too, it's pointless.

Also, the old way of having the green button work would expand the working documents window to an unpredictable size, often times omitting the the areas outside of the canvas which I typically use to quickly click on to deselect or select from the outside and highlight other items, happens all the time otherwise i need to zoom out in the documents windows seeing LESS of the canvas area and the objects and then GUESS where I'm selecting (dumb). MS Windows Maximize does it right.

 

[azpc]

"My workflow, while very different, works for me.

The Dock is always hidden, and with El Capitan the menu bar is also hidden (I like a minimalist desktop). All applications are full screen with a couple of exceptions. Application switching is done using cmd-Tab, 3 finger swipe or Mission Control. I also use a lot of keyboard short cuts. I really like the cmd-# for tab switching in Safari. By using pinned tabs, I now only have 1 Safari window instead of 3."


Some students where I teach really like your workflow. Interestingly, they all are using laptops where screen space is precious. The students using the iMacs on the other hand really dislike full screen mode except for viewing pictures and videos.

Workflow seems to be a very personal thing, a personal taste if you will. I am convinced workflow styles are related to personality types.

See the link below for information on how personality types influence perception and decision making.

http://www.myersbriggs.org/my-mbti-personality-type/mbti-basics/

Some people need the Menu Bar and the icons on the Dock as visual cue. For them more icons equal greater productivity. Others require the Menu Bar and Dock for copying and pasting and switching programs. Other ways seem clumsy and cumbersome to them.

Interestingly, as you mentioned mouse verses trackpad preferences seem to play a roll in this also. In my academic environment, mouse users tend to shun full screen, whereas trackpad users are not as adverse. Of course, this is not a perfect correlation. Exceptions certainly exist!

From what I can tell, Full Screen is popular with some groups while a Maximized Window with the Dock and Menu Bar visible is popular with other groups. Therefore, I believe both options should be standard in the operating system. The user can make his or her choice.

 

[dyn]

There is much more to workflow than personality alone. Workflow is defined by the software you use (or have to use), your personal preferences, what you've been taught (in school, by colleagues, friends, etc.), size of the display and so on. This is something you see with apps like CRM, ERP, etc. as well as smaller apps for GTD, note taking, etc. Workflow is always a personal thing but you can still standardise part(s) of it. Same applies to input device (mouse vs trackpad vs trackball vs tablet).

Fullscreen is mostly used by people on devices with smaller displays because of what fullscreen is: it allows you to use the most screen estate you have available. The problem is that on bigger screens there is usually a surplus of that and thus things are quickly too big. Safari is the best way to demonstrate it since most sites are not meant for resolutions like 2560x1440 but for smaller ones like 1024x768 (to name something). This changes with photo/video editing software due to the size of the content that you are working with. In that case another advantage of fullscreen mode comes in to play: being able to focus on that one task as everything else is obstructed by the fullscreen app. Maps is another good example of an app that benefits from running fullscreen on any display.

For fullscreen Apple has opted to autohide the menubar+dock to give you more screen space. Apps should take better use of that. The same applies to using the menu; the menu shouldn't be the only place where you can do things. People with larger screens (27" and up) probably know where this is going: that menubar is a problem on large screens because of the distance. It is extremely annoying if you have to move the mouse across the desk to get to the menubar in order to activate that one option. That's why the keyboard is so important as well as inspectors, buttons and so on.

If the menubar is the only option to do something then clearly the company who made the app messed it up. OS X isn't the only part that has to allow for multiple workflows, apps themselves have to do that too (or at least have a workflow, some don't even have that...). Just because Adobe messed up the interface doesn't mean Apple has to fix it. I like apps like Visual Studio Code from Microsoft because they've clearly thought about the workflow (you're using the keyboard to create code so why should you move from keyboard to mouse to operate the app? why not use 1 input device to do it all?). More app builders should take an example of that.

So the real question is: shouldn't app makers have a proper GUI so we users don't have to rely solely on 1 interface element (like the menubar)?

 

[bladerunner2000]

If the menubar is the only option to do something then clearly the company who made the app messed it up. OS X isn't the only part that has to allow for multiple workflows, apps themselves have to do that too (or at least have a workflow, some don't even have that...). Just because Adobe messed up the interface doesn't mean Apple has to fix it. I like apps like Visual Studio Code from Microsoft because they've clearly thought about the workflow (you're using the keyboard to create code so why should you move from keyboard to mouse to operate the app? why not use 1 input device to do it all?). More app builders should take an example of that.

So the real question is: shouldn't app makers have a proper GUI so we users don't have to rely solely on 1 interface element (like the menubar)?

No, because the green button's full screen debacle has screwed things up, not the other way around. Just make it an option to turn off the full screen crap and everyone is happy.

 

[azpc]

So the real question is: shouldn't app makers have a proper GUI so we users don't have to rely solely on 1 interface element (like the menubar)?

Yes, I agree. However, that does not to address user preferences. Not everyone likes to use keyboard commands. Over half of the students at the college use the menu bar for nearly everything. Yes, more advanced users develop their favorite short cut keys. Good software should be designed to accommodate both users.

As an aside, I'm glad both keyboard and trackpad options are available, otherwise my paralyzed friend wouldn't be able to use his iMac. He uses a combination of keyboard / trackpad commands to accomplish work on his iMac. It depends on which is easiest for him to use. Incidentally, voice commands without a visible menu or a dock is very difficult. Because of this he would also appreciate an option to change the default away from full screen.

 

[hojx]

I'm still trying to get whether the entire discussion is about having
1. zoom function behaving like Windows (i.e. fill up entire screen with dock and menubar visible), or
2. green button default behaviour going back to pre-Yosemite.

 

[dyn]

No, because the green button's full screen debacle has screwed things up, not the other way around. Just make it an option to turn off the full screen crap and everyone is happy.

If you are quoting my reply than at least read it because you failed to do so. There will still be unhappy people because:

1. there is an extra option they don't want
2. you still have to cross a long distance to get to the menubar on large displays.

Your option will only silence a few people like you but it won't solve the problem. The real problem is in how apps define their workflow. Again, we shouldn't be needing the menubar or Apple has to make the menubar like the menus in Windows apps where every window has the menubar. The crappy workflow in apps that heavily or even solely relies on the use of the menubar is what ultimately screwed things up, not the green button. Having to mouse a lot, having to unhide the menubar, etc. are all caused by it.

Btw, repetition of arguments is against the forum rules.

As an aside, I'm glad both keyboard and trackpad options are available, otherwise my paralyzed friend wouldn't be able to use his iMac.

Unfortunately those solutions are more of a hack due to the unavailability of proper APIs/controls in operating systems. At least Apple notices this and is actually doing something about it. If we want to cater these kind of situations we need to have specialised APIs as they require a very different way of interfacing than the ordinary mouse/keyboard way. Quite challenging!

I'm still trying to get whether the entire discussion is about having
1. zoom function behaving like Windows (i.e. fill up entire screen with dock and menubar visible), or
2. green button default behaviour going back to pre-Yosemite.

It is the same old discussion we've had for years: people want the green button to work like the maximise function in Windows. Apples fix is the fullscreen mode which hides menubar and dock automatically without having the option to always show them. People here want to have that option. However, that doesn't solve the problem because the reason why they want is, is because the apps they are using rely too heavily on the menubar. Ultimately it is a workflow issue in apps and maybe the way Apple sees the menubar (as being always on top).

 

[bladerunner2000]

If you are quoting my reply than at least read it because you failed to do so. There will still be unhappy people because:

1. there is an extra option they don't want
2. you still have to cross a long distance to get to the menubar on large displays.

Your option will only silence a few people like you but it won't solve the problem. The real problem is in how apps define their workflow. Again, we shouldn't be needing the menubar or Apple has to make the menubar like the menus in Windows apps where every window has the menubar. The crappy workflow in apps that heavily or even solely relies on the use of the menubar is what ultimately screwed things up, not the green button. Having to mouse a lot, having to unhide the menubar, etc. are all caused by it.

Btw, repetition of arguments is against the forum rules.

Unfortunately those solutions are more of a hack due to the unavailability of proper APIs/controls in operating systems. At least Apple notices this and is actually doing something about it. If we want to cater these kind of situations we need to have specialised APIs as they require a very different way of interfacing than the ordinary mouse/keyboard way. Quite challenging!


It is the same old discussion we've had for years: people want the green button to work like the maximise function in Windows. Apples fix is the fullscreen mode which hides menubar and dock automatically without having the option to always show them. People here want to have that option. However, that doesn't solve the problem because the reason why they want is, is because the apps they are using rely too heavily on the menubar. Ultimately it is a workflow issue in apps and maybe the way Apple sees the menubar (as being always on top).

This is absurd logic.

The menu bar has been a part of nearly every major operating system for 30 years, apple makes a bonehead move to change the way windows expand on top of what already was a mess and you make the move to be apologetic for Apple and claim its not the green button, its the menu bar? This is makes no sense.

Have you EVER worked in Indesign? The menu bar is loaded. And you know why? Because Indesign is loaded with functions. You're in no position to tell anyone how apps should function or HOW people should go about using an application. It's the users CHOICE of how to use an app. And the CHOICE to show/hide the menu bar and dock need to be made available to alleviate the problem.

But seriously, this:

However, that doesn't solve the problem because the reason why they want is, is because the apps they are using rely too heavily on the menubar.

LOL, you can't be serious?

And this:

there is an extra option they don't want

WRONG. Again. Let me give you an example:

When Apple released OS X 10.7, they got rid of Expose and lumped all windows within an application together. This pissed off a LOT of people. They eventually added this:

If you don't have a problem with THAT, then you have absolutely NO REASON to have a problem with a single option to show the menu bar and dock.

 

[maflynn]

[MOD NOTE]
There was a reason why the earlier thread was closed. It looks like this thread has devolved into bickering as well. Closing.