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Clearly you haven't used Apple Remote Desktop.

You're right. I've used the Microsoft client for Mac and CoRD but never Apple Remote Desktop since it was designed to connect to Macs. I believe you can make it work by running VNC on the server but again, Windows does not play nice with multiple users wanting to connect to the server at the same time.
 
Well i do IT at a large governmental body, we mainly have Windows PCs with the occasional pockets of Macs (they account for just under 1% of our network) the network itself is mainly ran on Windows servers with over 10000 client machines.

In my experience i've found both Windows and Mac systems have their pros and cons for business. Getting Macs to play nice in your typical Windows network environment (Active Directory/Exchange/Citrix/VMware etc) can be a real pain to set up if your needs are specific. Unsurprisingly they work much better with their own OS X based servers and once setup you're technical support needs will be less (on average per machine) than your typical Dell PC running Windows.

My advice would be this: Go Mac, you seem to have your heart set on it, it'll be easier to setup and you'll probably have less hassle with support. You may also save on electricity costs lol You obviously still need Windows to run some apps but i'd keep this running on a separate machine from your main network admin server (which preferably would be OS X over Windows for the points already mentioned)
 
You're right. I've used the Microsoft client for Mac and CoRD but never Apple Remote Desktop since it was designed to connect to Macs. I believe you can make it work by running VNC on the server but again, Windows does not play nice with multiple users wanting to connect to the server at the same time.

Apple Remote Desktop allows remote updating without needing to take mouse control of a computer. That's one of the many features. Used to be $300. Now $80 for admin. Clients are already in each Mac.

http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/apple-remote-desktop/id409907375?mt=12

Also, updating OS X is much faster than Windows. Why does it take so long to update pcs?

Philadelphia international airport uses Mac + ARD
http://obamapacman.com/2009/10/philadelphia-international-airport-uses-macs-to-reduce-cost/
 
Apple Remote Desktop allows remote updating without needing to take mouse control of a computer. That's one of the many features. Used to be $300. Now $80 for admin. Clients are already in each Mac.

http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/apple-remote-desktop/id409907375?mt=12

Also, updating OS X is much faster than Windows. Why does it take so long to update pcs?

Philadelphia international airport uses Mac + ARD
http://obamapacman.com/2009/10/philadelphia-international-airport-uses-macs-to-reduce-cost/

What the TS is talking about is connecting to Windows - not Macs.

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My advice would be this: Go Mac, you seem to have your heart set on it, it'll be easier to setup and you'll probably have less hassle with support. You may also save on electricity costs lol You obviously still need Windows to run some apps but i'd keep this running on a separate machine from your main network admin server (which preferably would be OS X over Windows for the points already mentioned)

Just out of curiosity: What kind of hardware do you use for your OS X servers and have you had any problems migrating to Lion's Server Tools? I'm told it's very different from the discontinued dedicated server version.
 
Thanks for the advice. What I will probably do is start using Mac machines...and see how it works out. Luckily, I don't have to buy too many machines to begin with. As we expand and grow I will see if the Macs are working well and adjust accordingly.
 

What's your point? It's certainly possible to integrate macs into a Windows environment but that's not the issue. The issue is that the strategy JasonR has laid out with multiple users connecting to one server running windows won't work.

I've been trying to explain that to you but you ignore it. Am I missing something?

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Thanks for the advice. What I will probably do is start using Mac machines...and see how it works out. Luckily, I don't have to buy too many machines to begin with. As we expand and grow I will see if the Macs are working well and adjust accordingly.

Is there any possibility of steering clear of the Windows only application?
 
Is there any possibility of steering clear of the Windows only application?

I wish there was...but I don't think so. I plan on using Stone Edge Order Manager (http://www.stoneedge.com/) which integrates with Quickbooks and my shopping cart software. I've looked long and hard for an alternative solution, but right now that's all I've been able to come up with.
 
I wish there was...but I don't think so. I plan on using Stone Edge Order Manager (http://www.stoneedge.com/) which integrates with Quickbooks and my shopping cart software. I've looked long and hard for an alternative solution, but right now that's all I've been able to come up with.

Will more than one user need to access the application at the same time?
 
Will more than one user need to access the application at the same time?

Yes...if you read up on Stone Edge a little bit it has a whole HOST of features. At Stone Edge's price point I can't find anything that will come close to replicating what it can do.

CSRs will use it for order taking, we will use it for ordering, inventory management, reports, shipping, etc. I wouldn't hesitate to say that almost every employee will touch it at some level.
 
Yes...if you read up on Stone Edge a little bit it has a whole HOST of features. At Stone Edge's price point I can't find anything that will come close to replicating what it can do.

CSRs will use it for order taking, we will use it for ordering, inventory management, reports, shipping, etc. I wouldn't hesitate to say that almost every employee will touch it at some level.

That means that you will need a number of Windows installations. You can either run them virtually or on the iron but the bottom line is that at least 80% of you machines will need Windows on them in some form or another. For no apparent reason, you want these machines to run OS X as well. That means you'll need to hire staff comfortable in each environment and you won't get any benefit out of it. In any case the Windows environment will need to be managed.

I would buy 80% PCs and then have the last 20% choose whether they want PCs or macs with a virtual machine running Windows for when they infrequently need to use the order app. You'll probably also find that the programmers and designers prefer 24" monitors whereas people taking orders can make due with less.
 
That means that you will need a number of Windows installations. You can either run them virtually or on the iron but the bottom line is that at least 80% of you machines will need Windows on them in some form or another. For no apparent reason, you want these machines to run OS X as well. That means you'll need to hire staff comfortable in each environment and you won't get any benefit out of it. In any case the Windows environment will need to be managed.

I would buy 80% PCs and then have the last 20% choose whether they want PCs or macs with a virtual machine running Windows for when they infrequently need to use the order app. You'll probably also find that the programmers and designers prefer 24" monitors whereas people taking orders can make due with less.

Damn...I was hoping for a better solution.

Your logic makes sense...totally. I will take your advice when purchasing new machines. Thank you. :D
 
Do you ever write anything that isn't full of Apple bashing? Your above statement makes no sense. Have you even used a Mac?

To the OP, it depends what you do. What kind of business are you running? How many computers? What type of software will you be using?

I personally, as someone who works in IT with Windows machines daily would suggest going Mac if you can (but again, I need more information). Why? Lots less downtime, easier to set up, networking is a breeze, and you don't have to worry about people in the office sharing viruses and malware. I know many people have stated go Windows or Linux because its cheaper, and while that is true initially, you have to look at things in the long run and decide if you want to spend more up front and less later, or less up front and more later.

In one of my previous jobs I used to go around to small businesses and recommend and set up equipment for use. Sometimes the customer already had equipment ordered and I would just go set it up. I will tell you one thing, I never once had to return to a customer using Macs (and there were quite a few) but the customers using Windows I always had to go back out, fix things, fix OS installs, and numerous other things. It comes with using Windows and there is no way around it. If your stuff works great, excellent, if it doesn't you'll be racking up bills for someone to come out and fix your equipment. I'm not saying your macs can't have problems, but it is far less likely. Most of my calls on Windows machines were software related.

That being said its hard to make a recommendation without knowing more of what you will be doing, how many machines you need, will you need a server, how much do you want to spend on equipment, etc etc. If you are a company doing programming using Visual Studio for example a Mac based setup would not be a good idea.

I have tried using a mac. I have used macs since the 1.25ghz G4 came out. and when I tried setting a mac up in an office, I was on the phone with a tier-two tech support agent who ultimately told me to return my mac and buy a refurb that didn't have the newest OS.

Ask any video editor if they'd trust Apple after Apple left them with 0 upgrade path for Final Cut. Ask the DropBox team if Lion is backwards compatable with Snow Leopard. Ask the Quicken team if Apple supports their own software for more than one or two OS revisions. The sad truth is that if you need your software to work outside of a bubble, you can not depend on Apple.
 
Holy crap people, it's not like apple is holding a gun to your head telling you that you have to update to the new os, oh wait you ant, you have to buy a new computer, oh your software doesn't run on it? Oh well. But seriously apple never forces anyone to upgrade. Plenty of companies I've worked with are just upgrading from xp to w7. Companies should be upgrading hardware every 3-4 years anyways. All tax write offs are used by then. Again, You DON'T have to upgrade!

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Ask any video editor if they'd trust Apple after Apple left them with 0 upgrade path for Final Cut. Ask the DropBox team if Lion is backwards compatable with Snow Leopard. Ask the Quicken team if Apple supports their own software for more than one or two OS revisions. The sad truth is that if you need your software to work outside of a bubble, you can not depend on Apple.

Final Cut, yeah I guess it's apple's fault for giving editors a heads up to familiarize themselves with a completely different way to edit. Honestly, it was partly apple's fault, but the same time, editors are FOOLS if they switch over to a 1.0 release and expect to do pro work on it.

As far as dropbox, I have no idea what you're talking about. I haven't had any issues at all since 10.7.0 w/ dropbox and neither has anyone I know.

Quicken team, seriously, that's there problem. Two OS revisions is about 4 years. If you can't get your act together over 4 YEARS then it's your development problem, not apples.

The truth is, 1. apple is not holding you at gunpoint to update. 2. If your lively hood depends on it, it's common sense to not update on 1.0 releases. 3. Don't depend on a company that can't update their product when they have 4 years to do it.

Edit: If you want, you buy something, get it setup just the way you and get it work just fine, then freeze everything. That's all it takes. No updates. Problem solved for most of you here worry and complaining about how apple after 2 os revisions obsoletes your hardware. You hardware works just fine w/ the os it came with, the software you were using when you bought it, and the follow 1-2 OS updates. Come on people, you're asking for the moon + some. "I'm so pissed the computer I bought w/ windows 2000nt can't run w7, wtf ms???"
 
Mac vs PC

I think you have the right idea.
I know the dilemma; you're trying to be selfless in a business setting and save costs. Personally you like the Mac and have two great ones that make you happy.
My company is a small PR firm and just turned 14, and I had the same dilemma back then too. We were 4 people, and my biz partner and I liked Macs so we bought those tall beige towers with subwoofers in em for all four of us. Our guys were young and learned fast.
We later brought in a couple of PC laptops and brought the bookkeeping to them only to begin that downward spiral of having to FIND someone who could work on them and HIRE them to do so. We had never had to hire tech people to work on our Macs, and it ended up costing us years of frustration and far far more money than had we stuck with what we knew and what worked when we took it out of the box. THis took us from OS6 through today.
We finally did away with our last PC when Quickbooks came back to supporting OSX a few years back, and we've never looked back.

Granted, our staff are a very young hipster crowd into modern indie pop music, social media and the works, so to them there is nothing cooler than walking into a "hip", and yes I use that term loosely with my company, atmosphere where everyone is used to using iPhones and iPods and Macs. They all just know them as well as I do after spending 18 years on Macs myself.

I've used em all, and in a small setting with young hip staff you see where I've gone.
Would I do that if I was hiring 50-somethings who had only experience in customer service, on phones, and in databases other than filemaker?
probably not. I'd do a mix and buy the cheapest pc's I could get my hands on.
You'll just replace them in a year or two anyway.

hope this helps. You have gotten some good suggestions before mine. What have you already done since?

would love an update.

Welsnlsnlsn
 
Final Cut, yeah I guess it's apple's fault for giving editors a heads up to familiarize themselves with a completely different way to edit. Honestly, it was partly apple's fault, but the same time, editors are FOOLS if they switch over to a 1.0 release and expect to do pro work on it.

The truth is, 1. apple is not holding you at gunpoint to update. 2. If your lively hood depends on it, it's common sense to not update on 1.0 releases. 3. Don't depend on a company that can't update their product when they have 4 years to do it.

Edit: If you want, you buy something, get it setup just the way you and get it work just fine, then freeze everything. That's all it takes. No updates. Problem solved for most of you here worry and complaining about how apple after 2 os revisions obsoletes your hardware. You hardware works just fine w/ the os it came with, the software you were using when you bought it, and the follow 1-2 OS updates. Come on people, you're asking for the moon + some. "I'm so pissed the computer I bought w/ windows 2000nt can't run w7, wtf ms???"

1) Editors are fools to switch over to a 1.0 release and expect it to work? In your first paragraph, you're making excuses for something Apple shouldn't have done. Period. Everybody has seen the insane backlash Apple received for what they did.

No matter how strongly you support them, you just can't make excuses for something like that. They did it purely to grab a larger profit margin and appeal to more customers. To them, it's great. To us, it's a slap in the face.

2) You're right, nobody is telling you to invest in the ecosystem, buy applications, or update. However, nobody is arguing against that either. What he's trying to say is that it doesn't make sense to want to work with somebody then be restricted the way Apple does.

They have a specific model in which they want to keep people spending: keep people up to date on their newest stuff. Why do you think, and I have never experienced this with ANYTHING else, people buy a NEW MACHINE every year? A new freaking computer, and it's the same damn kind?

Apple creates and markets their material to make you want to buy it. Over and over and over again, even though the one you have is already more powerful than what you need. Doesn't matter; each new model has a gimmick, if you will, that entices people to buy. If you have a 2010 MBP and you upgraded to the 2011 and you don't do heavy tasks, you wasted your money. Simple as that. All you got with the 2011 is a lower grade graphics card and a SNB processor.

Wifi cards are a little better as well but if you aren't taking wifi from another router 100 feet away, then that's negligible

Sometimes they have a legitimate upgrade like the Air; backlit keyboard and the SNB processors really made a difference as the performance is now on par with last gen's MBPs and the old C2D chips were pathetic.

3) The argument is about a new consumer buying machines for his business and these points you are going against are VALID. Period. This isn't about Apple and their want to continue down the line, it isn't about how "you" feel in relation to another in terms of WHY they do what they do, it's about letting the OP know that Apple does NOT care about outside software when a new year rolls around.

They don't. You can argue all you want that they do, and that you can just "deal with it", but at the end of the day, when the OP makes that final decision, he needs to know things like this.
 
What the TS is talking about is connecting to Windows - not Macs.

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Just out of curiosity: What kind of hardware do you use for your OS X servers and have you had any problems migrating to Lion's Server Tools? I'm told it's very different from the discontinued dedicated server version.

We actually use a Mac Pro for our network admin for Mac OS clients. Still running Snow Leopard server too. We haven't even tested Lion server yet as we don't have much reason to upgrade. Your right when you say Lion server is very different, which in a business environment usually means ALOT of testing is needed to make sure it all works as it should.
 
We actually use a Mac Pro for our network admin for Mac OS clients. Still running Snow Leopard server too. We haven't even tested Lion server yet as we don't have much reason to upgrade. Your right when you say Lion server is very different, which in a business environment usually means ALOT of testing is needed to make sure it all works as it should.

So you're pretty much running an EOL'ed server OS on non-server grade hardware. I'm not saying that won't work splendidly for a small business but for a large company it would be fairly risky to use OS X as the main OS for clients (which is probably why you don't do it). What happens if a security flaw is found in one of the products in OS X server? There's no guarantee that a patch will be back ported.
 
So you're pretty much running an EOL'ed server OS on non-server grade hardware. I'm not saying that won't work splendidly for a small business but for a large company it would be fairly risky to use OS X as the main OS for clients (which is probably why you don't do it). What happens if a security flaw is found in one of the products in OS X server? There's no guarantee that a patch will be back ported.

non-server grade hardware? i assume your only talking about the hard discs right? which can be swapped out for server grade ones. The CPU, RAM, Network card are all server grade. Its perfectly acceptable for the less than 100 client Macs which use it.

also, i'm not sure how you can realistically say SL server is "End of Life"? Its still supported, its successor was only launched last month!
 
non-server grade hardware? i assume your only talking about the hard discs right? which can be swapped out for server grade ones. The CPU, RAM, Network card are all server grade. Its perfectly acceptable for the less than 100 client Macs which use it.

Redundant PSU? Easily replacable components?

also, i'm not sure how you can realistically say SL server is "End of Life"? Its still supported, its successor was only launched last month!

Is it? When will it no longer be supported? Where's the documentation?
 
Mac in Business? YES YES YES!

We are all Mac from the Servers to Phones.
More money in hardware, less in support, software licencing, and THEY HOLD THIER VALUE. Less down time.
We Run MS Office, filemaker, CS 5. The guy crying about Rosetta is just too cheep to update old power PC programs.
And for server power, 2 Macmini's With a Promise Thunderbolt Raid for under 3500.00!!! I paid close to 30K for 2 x-serves with fiber on a Promise.
The only place where Apple fails is Email for which we use KERIO/
 
Jason:

Did you end-up going with StoneEdge?
Or, have you found an all-cloud version of what you're looking for?

What have you been using for ecommerce?

-Scot
 
I'm not sure if this has been said yet, but if you are using a windows server, use windows PC's. If you are using a linux server, it barely matters.

I'm in a similar situation. I'm actually considering linux for the typical computer users! To be honest though, windows is a better choice in general as there are more support people that know the system, and most workers will be familiar with it unlike OSX.

If the business is in a creative industry (photo lab, web/graphic design, etc), consider macs.
 
What's your point? It's certainly possible to integrate macs into a Windows environment but that's not the issue. The issue is that the strategy JasonR has laid out with multiple users connecting to one server running windows won't work.

I've been trying to explain that to you but you ignore it. Am I missing something?
Just for future reference, this is a non-issue. You can use Terminal Services (Win Server 2003) or Remote Desktop Services (Win Server 2008+) to allow multiple users access to one server/application, obviously there are licensing fees to do it but it is a solution to the issue at hand.
 
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