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...I must say so is the software, its not a seamless experience any more...

What are you talking about? Are you in a parallel universe? :)

Apple software and services are the epitome of seamlessness. Have you not used any recently? iWork apps, Notes, Calendar, Music, Photos, iCloud, and on - all seamless between macOS, iOS, and now ipadOS. They are why people stick with Apple.
 
Even when it comes to hardware, Apple has been overshadowed. My Surface Book 2 is the laptop Apple should have designed. It's a MacBook Pro and iPad Pro combined, but then with with much better graphics performance, better battery life, better keyboard and a better pen (minus the awful iOS file system).

A lot of people will be disgusted by my statements (even me three years ago). But let's face it, Apple has lost its edge. And I wonder if there is a way back.

The Surface Book 2 is by no means a replacement for the iPad Pro because it is a terrible tablet. It weights about double as much as the 12.9 iPP and Windows is an awful tablet OS.

I am complaining often in this forum about the missing productivity features of the iPads (which finally improves with iPadOS 13) but the Surface is a much worser tablet than the iPad is a bad notebook....
 
Yeah, let's have Jony run the company. A fashion accessory? Thousands unsold? What a talentless hack.

And thanks, Jony, for eliminating the Home button. My iPhones have routinely missed gestures, which wouldn't happen if I had a Home button. And I hate having to look at the screen so the iPhone will unlock rather than using Touch ID, which was both faster and more reliable.

No Home button. Macs so thin they have anemic battery life and lackluster features. By now it should be obvious to everyone that Steve was the real design talent in that partnership.

Is there designer on Earth with less talent than Jony? Sure doesn't seem like it.
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However it happened, I think Steve's death just took the wind from his sails, and he never really recovered.
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Uh, unless you want accuracy, which is the primary job of a watch. Thanks, but I'll eschew my Breitling for my Apple Watch's timekeeping.

Accuracy is just nonsense and unless you are losing minutes per day. No real world users needs such accuracy and perhaps you should get your watch COSC calibrated and certified as mine are. Otherwise just a regular yearly service should be considered.

If you're seriously telling me you need better than 99.9977% (at worst +6/-1s loss, at best +-1s per day), perhaps you should be walking around with a caesium 133 clock on your wrist?

Here's one just for you: https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/introducing-the-bathys-cesium-133-atomic-clock-watch

:D
 
What are you talking about? Are you in a parallel universe? :)

Apple software and services are the epitome of seamlessness. Have you not used any recently? iWork apps, Notes, Calendar, Music, Photos, iCloud, and on - all seamless between macOS, iOS, and now ipadOS. They are why people stick with Apple.

take a second look. Apple Notes, iTunes, Finder, iOS Files, Apple Music, iTunes U, Safari on iOS, Safari on Mac, Weather, Stocks, Maps.. Do they even look like they were made by the same company? You have to go back to iSuite, iWeb, iDVD days to see how things seemed so much more seamless.

If you are just saying they work together, then so does Android+Firefox+DropBox+Instagram+Amazon app+Twitter... they all work together nicely.
 
It's going to be interesting to see who will take over af Ive .... the congenial co-operation and understanding between Jobs and Ive gave us all a lot of small miracles .... I hope Ive will find a new palce to work his wonders and that keeps on focusing on form and not "only" function!!!
 
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It's going to be interesting to see who will take over af Ive .... the congenial co-operation and understanding between Jobs and Ive gave us all a lot of small miracles .... I hope Ive will find a new palce to work his wonders and that keeps on focusing on form and not "only" function!!!
Totally agree.

That said, "form" and "function" are inseparable qualities when it comes to mobile devices. I disagree with the copious (and IMHO, shallow) online debate implying it is somehow an "either/or" relationship. If a personal mobile device is not "thin" or "small" then is it a good personal mobile device?

I'd say no, it's not. If it's too big or bulky, it stays home! Or it stays in the car. Or it stays in the overcoat pocket in the cloakroom. Or it stays in the purse/handbag. Either way, the user keeps it a distance, not on their person. "Compactness" (which "thin-ness" aids) is a functional requirement for mobile devices, IMHO.

So an obsession with thinness is, in this context, a commendable obsession with satisfying a user's needs.

Who wants to go back to this brick:
ppc-6700-htc-apache15.jpg
 
That said, "form" and "function" are inseparable qualities when it comes to mobile devices.

If you're making tools then function is form. If not, you're making jewellery (which is maybe what Ive would prefer to do). With a couple of exceptions (...Dalmatian-skin iMac anybody?) most of Apple's designs have been minimalistic, spartan and functional.

True, one function of a phone is to be thin enough to fit in a pocket - but other functions include being robust enough to withstand being carried in a pocket, being big enough to contain an adequate battery or have the connections you need. There's no point making a phone thin enough to carry in a trouser pocket (they've been thin enough for shirt/jacket pockets for years) if it can't survive being sat upon, can't afford to miss a single daily charge or doesn't have the single most common audio connection. There's no function in making the phone so thin that it needs a bulge for the camera lens. There's no function in making a laptop so thin that it can't accommodate the wonderful low-profile keyboard that you already have, or so thin that it can't be cooled effectively without throttling the expensive high-performance CPU.

Nobody is proposing we go back to the sort of brick in your picture*. If HTC (or whoever) re-made a phone with the same functional spec, it would be smaller than that.

The big step-forward with the iPhone was not its thickness - thinner phones were going to happen anyway as technology improved - but its user interface design: It had a single, primary input device - a large capacitative touch screen - with a bare minimum of physical buttons - and an OS and application suite designed from the ground up to have a purely touch-based interface. Prior to that, conventional wisdom was that a smartphone had to have an alphanumeric keyboard and some sort of joystick/trackball - which accounts for about 1/3 of the thickness of the pictured brick.

Likewise, with the iPod before, beyond technology shrinking anyway, the Unique Selling Point was the unique UI and ease of syncing music (and recognising that syncing is important for the many non-tech users don't know how to copy files - seriously, I've encountered several who could only copy a file by opening it in Word and doing 'Save as...').

In both cases, Jony Ive designed a beautiful case to hold the parts together. I don't think for one moment that it is a trivial job, he is certainly good at it and it undoubtedly contributed to those successes - but he wasn't responsible for the real advance in UI/workflow design that made them more than a flash-in-the-pan. A major reason that he could make the iPhone so thin was because the UI design meant he didn't have to cram in an alphanumeric keyboard.

When Ive took over UI design he totally threw the functional baby out with the skeuomorphic bathwater. The iOS designers had lost sight of the whole point of skeuomorphism (i.e. to suggest functionality**: if a contacts app looks like a desk diary it should work like a desk diary - iOS 'Contacts' failed spectacularly at that) but Ive falsely identified skeuomorphism as the problem and produced (arguably) stylish 'flat' designs which looked cool but lacked the old visual cues to functionality - and certainly didn't fix the actual UI design problems.

* I actually had something similar to the pictured brick, and I can tell you that the size was the least of its problems - it fit in my jacket pocket, a Filofax didn't. However, it had a slide-out QWERTY keyboard, a mini-joystick, a jog-wheel, call accept/hang-up buttons, camera buttons, a resistive touch screen and toothpick stylus (that you needed because the on-screen buttons were tiny - which is why Jobs derided styli) along with a user interface based on desktop Windows and optimised for precisely none of those input methods. It was a usability train wreck.

** Also, with skeuomorphism, you have to accept that it will eventually become self-referential: e.g. the floppy disc icon remains the symbol for 'save' long after floppy discs have gone to silicon heaven - but what's the problem as long as everybody recognises the symbols? If you try to "update" skeuomorphism your toolbar becomes a row of black rounded rectangles...
 
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I do not envy these designers now. With Ive leaving the company and designing from his own company, the in house designers have leadership who barely give a crap, only caring about money. I cannot remember as many class action lawsuits for hardware than over the past few years (and -sadly none- taking on the iPad Pro / iPads touch disease and heat).

I am glad the WSJ is putting pressure on Apple beyond the lawsuits, negative press and returns. The Journal obviously hits a serious nerve for Cook & co. as well they should.

Apple needs to right their hardware, production and quality control. Once they do this and right the software as well, then I think Hollywood will start to take them seriously again.

I hope the scissor keyboards are true, but I also hope the design team AND Cook etc. now know they cannot just coast on past glories, especially at these price points. I'd been complaining a lot less if I had rock solid Mac(s) and decent software.
 
I do not envy these designers now. With Ive leaving the company and designing from his own company, the in house designers have leadership who barely give a crap, only caring about money. I cannot remember as many class action lawsuits for hardware than over the past few years (and -sadly none- taking on the iPad Pro / iPads touch disease and heat).

I am glad the WSJ is putting pressure on Apple beyond the lawsuits, negative press and returns. The Journal obviously hits a serious nerve for Cook & co. as well they should.

Apple needs to right their hardware, production and quality control. Once they do this and right the software as well, then I think Hollywood will start to take them seriously again.

I hope the scissor keyboards are true, but I also hope the design team AND Cook etc. now know they cannot just coast on past glories, especially at these price points. I'd been complaining a lot less if I had rock solid Mac(s) and decent software.
You’re entitled to your opinions and complaints.

However:
- part of a ceo responsibility is caring about money
- class action lawsuits only take $250 to file but winning is another matter
- either wsj is full of it or Apple is. IMO, wsj may have overstated it and deserves the criticism (but ymmv on that)
 
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If HTC (or whoever) re-made a phone with the same functional spec, it would be smaller than that.
You made a lot of good points in your post. I agree with many, but the above point I’m not so sure about.

If Apple hadn’t really pushed the envelope on making their mobile tech really small and compact, would the rest of the mobile industry (companies like HTC) bothered to try? It was neither easy nor cheap to start mass producing precision-engineered aluminum and stainless steel devices. Would the other companies have done that all by themselves? Would they have been able to? And if they did, could they have persuaded their customers to pay the premium prices necessary?

Without Apple’s disruptive influence, I’m not sure the competitors would have stirred. I suspect the industry would have played it safe and continued cranking out “good-enough” plastic phones with conventional (cheap) parts.
 
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If Apple hadn’t really pushed the envelope on making their mobile tech really small and compact, would the rest of the mobile industry (companies like HTC) bothered to try?

Before iPhone:

https://www.gsmarena.com/siemens_cl50-337.php (2002)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorola_Razr
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LG_Prada (2007 - probably at least partly inspiration for the iPhone)

Before Macbook Air - and smaller than an Air:

https://www.pcmag.com/encyclopedia/term/53654/vaio
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asus_Eee_PC

Before Powerbook:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grid_Compass

Before Newton:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharp_Wizard
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psion_Series_3

Before iPod:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rio_PMP300 (not exactly a brick, is it?)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_Jukebox
https://www.theverge.com/circuitbre...-cassette-music-player-portable-mp3-evolution (belated happy birthday!)

NB: Please don't take the following as a "Apple ripped the iPhone off from X...." argument. It isn't. I'm just pointing out that the industry didn't need Apple to tell it to make things smaller. Apple's trick was usually to make them better products and market the hell out of them.

Without Apple’s disruptive influence, I’m not sure the competitors would have stirred.

I wouldn't deny for one second that Apple's disruptive influence has been a - if not the - major driver of change in the mobile and PC industry over the years... but I'm disputing that simply making things smaller was the significant factor - even where portability was an issue. Take the laptop, for example - Apple were way behind the curve in making a laptop, and the first portable Mac was a bit of a laughing stock (but the clue was in the name, it wasn't supposed to be a laptop). Then they produced the Powerbook 100/140/170 and basically invented the modern laptop - not by being smaller than the competition, but by moving the keyboard to the back and adding a wrist-rest with a central trackball... because this was a Mac and in MacOS the pointing device was as important as the keyboard (classic form-follows-function).

With the iPhone, the first envelope they pushed was to make a touch-only GUI that enabled thinner phones. More negatively, they convinced people that it didn't matter if your phone couldn't go 24 hours without a re-charge (I had an early Android phone which was somewhat thicker, esp. when I fitted an extra-large battery, but when I wound up in hospital and it lasted several days until someone brought me a charger, I didn't regret going Android...)
 
you must be dreaming - Apple U program is reserved for TOP 100 talent and they don't change every year...
I didn't say it was a community college for everyone. Apple is training their next generation of designers, engineers and executives. Not sure what's so hard to understand about that.
 
Well I’m just pointing out thinness wasn’t something Apple only became obsessed with after Jobs died..

True. Remember when Steve Jobs pulled the first Macbook Air out of the envelope? Thinness was a thing long before SJs passing...


"We're talking thin here..."
 
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Interesting revelation that thousands of the $17,000 gold watches were not sold.

Really, that’s what makes some of those guys so smart. I’d have never figured a $17K watch that would become electronically obsolete just as quickly as the cheapest models would not sell well.
 
Interesting revelation that thousands of the $17,000 gold watches were not sold.

Really, that’s what makes some of those guys so smart. I’d have never figured a $17K watch that would become electronically obsolete just as quickly as the cheapest models would not sell well.
Too expensive.
 
17k usd gold apple watch edition is the most expensive luxury thing with the shorter life span , there are no precedent in consumer history with this nosense.
An extremely expensive case with same cheap tech inside than the 349usd model.
All we have seen the iphone’s cases covered with gold and diamonds of 2 or 3 eccentric mega rich but
They cant be rhousand unsold because I cant believe Apple is so stupid to make thousand of them. They used that model just for marketing purpose as Audi makes a 1 million prototype every so just to expose it in car conventions
I’m not saying that some spoiled ultra rich didn’t buy the watch just to put it in the drawer as soon the next year edition 2 were released
 
I didn't say it was a community college for everyone. Apple is training their next generation of designers, engineers and executives. Not sure what's so hard to understand about that.

nope, you're wrong - it's company leaders not "designers and engineers "
 
I’m not saying that some spoiled ultra rich didn’t buy the watch just to put it in the drawer as soon the next year edition 2 were released[/QUOTE]

That would be so wasteful....
 
nope, you're wrong - it's company leaders not "designers and engineers "

"Apple University is a training facility of Apple Inc., located in Cupertino, California. This corporate university was designed to instruct personnel employed by Apple in the various aspects of Apple's technology and corporate culture." - Wikipedia

Besides, Apple is a design company so the leaders are also designers in a sense.
 
You mean Scott Forstall, the same guy that brought us that stinking turd of an app called apple maps, or that he hung on skeuomorphism so long that the iOS interface was looking so dated. He brought a lot of positives to the table, but he was no Steve Jobs and he messed up with apple maps. Yes, Cook pushed him out because he didn't need a rival. Steve Jobs personally hand picked Tim Cook to run the show, and its not like Cook hid his abilities and short comings. Jobs knew what Cook was about and chose him.
Yeah but he did a Broadway musical that won multiple awards and now advises the twits at Snap. It's all gravy.

Honestly, anytime people praise Forstall I have to wonder if they're serious or not, or even inebriated.
 
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