[WW] Battle of Plains d'Abraham - see results of DAY 4!

[Sythas]

yes and no.

first, they played well, so that counts a lot

second, we started without the guard (melrose) that is too much. the role is core for a reason and it should have been reassigned.

in addition, the confusion with the swap greatly helped the wolves. if the swap had been done correctly, raven would have been stranded without an official answer and therefore would have had a 'wholla lot of splainin to do', consider that i suppose i wasn't the only one who suspected him.

on top of that they did get a few more lucky breaks, with the necromancer gone on night one, me being the seer, the collapser inadvertently helping them and the swapper doing the same

Yes, I should have reassign the Guard, but I got the information really just before the start, I thougth, that maybe I should had put 3 ww, so I thought it was a fair compromise.

Rick send me a PM to swap Raven and DP's power. I took it as a do it now, (send a PM to ravenvii and DP), but then seeing that Rick really was waiting to the answer, send him a PM to confirm it was now and not after. he wanted it to be after the answer.

With all the vote modifying powers, it's hard to know when a power will change something. I did majority locked QoS because Plutonius already votes, thus I understood he will not used his power. But maybe it was a mistake.

I did struggled behind the scene and those mishap did gives some break to the wolf.

I will run another game, with less story telling tho. It's hard to change the story. (I had no WW kill 10 minutes before deadline on the first day, so already constructed another story for the night)

 

[Moyank24]

Unlucky, bad calls, you name it.

The thing is with these extra powers the ability to PM becomes even more powerful. The stuff you can plan, coordinate and execute now - paired with a good bluff here and there - is hard to come by. I can't really recall how the other games of this type went - bit more balanced I guess, but tampering a bit with the roles after they got assigned (but not announced) could be beneficial - althouhg I guess some GG are strictly against this.

Or maybe a nightwatch could be reintroduced.

Definitely. There were a lot of roles in play, some which involved needing good timing. Different time zones, maybe some rustiness, may have stunted that a bit. And Melrose being the Guard was just a dagger in the whole thing.

I've always liked the nightwatch, and depending on the number of players, do think it should be in play!

 

[Plutonius]

I was quite sure of either him or Pluto being a WW.

Every game people (especially you) think I'm a WW. That's why the WW never bother killing me at night .

I consider this game a victory since I survived past day 2.

----------

I did struggled behind the scene and those mishap did gives some break to the wolf.

You did very well and there will always be some discussion at the end of a game no matter who runs it.

 

[chrmjenkins]

probably i should have. i was planning on doing it on day 3 after getting the second night scan

That way, you could have been swapped silently before your imminent demise

 

[Sythas]

BTW, from the way my PM was written, I thought I had been blocked for the day, not leeched.

Wolves did a good job keeping everyone confused too. Hats off.

Yes, me being French mostly (Beside here, I almost don't write in english ) did not help, hehe.

----------

You did very well and there will always be some discussion at the end of a game no matter who runs it.

I know this and don't worry I do think I did a good job for a first time. I do want to know how to do better next time and what part of the game we can change if need to be changed.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Yes, me being French mostly (Beside here, I almost don't write in english ) did not help, hehe.

No, you did very well. And, again, thanks for running the game and holding & keeping the show together.

The WWs got some breaks, yes, but they rode their luck exceptionally well, too, so all kudos and praise to them; they played a great game.

My only quibble - with hindsight - would be the failure to bring the Guard role into the actual game, after Melrose's late and abrupt departure; there is a reason it is a core role, and it ought to have been reassigned.

However, apart from that, the WWs were exceptionally good, and were able to maximise the effect of the mistakes of the other side.

 

[twietee]

Sythas, great game - you did very well!

 

[chrmjenkins]

Sythas, great game - you did very well!

Yes, a complex game for your first is a lot to manage.

 

[Don't panic]

Unlucky, bad calls, you name it.

The thing is with these extra powers the ability to PM becomes even more powerful. The stuff you can plan, coordinate and execute now - paired with a good bluff here and there - is hard to come by. I can't really recall how the other games of this type went - bit more balanced I guess, but tampering a bit with the roles after they got assigned (but not announced) could be beneficial - althouhg I guess some GG are strictly against this.

Or maybe a nightwatch could be reintroduced.

it is possible that with only 12 players and no guard, the wolves were overpowered (the other games had many more players and thus more powers, plus the good powers diluted in a larger pool so at least some of them would last longer) but it is actually quite hard to gauge how things will work out.

the only thing I am convinced of is that i think that the guard power should have been reassigned at the beginning of the game. this is not a criticism on Sythas, i think he did fine as a GG on his first game, and a player pulling out at the beginning is not something that usually happens.

but as far as balance of powers, the leech is a gamble, and you can get something good or something just ok.
The oracle power to the wolves is a double edged sword as it forces them to not use it or expose one of the wolves.
even the way it was used in this game, which was extremely effective, was so because it apparently somehow 'cleared' ravenvii in the eyes of the village. but that was a mistake by the village (which likely will not be made again), not an intrinsic extra strength of the wolves role.

in any of the breaks went in the way of the village, the game would have been much more balanced, and maybe could have gone the other way, even with the exact same role distribution between ww and village.
things that went the wolves way:
- again, guard lost at the get go
- necromancer lost on night one, if someone else instead of techgod was killed, or someone else had the role, it is possible they would have revived me and we would have learned about raven
- collapse inadvertently helps raven
- seer lost on night 2
- swap is applied after the oracle got the answer instead of before
- swap inadvertently helps raven

things that went the village way:
-


that said, especially with small number of player, some adjustments to help the village might be of use. either the nightwatch or protect the core from being transferred to the wolves (in that case the ability that transfers them just fails)

 

[Don't panic]

Yes, I should have reassign the Guard, but I got the information really just before the start, I thougth, that maybe I should had put 3 ww, so I thought it was a fair compromise.

Rick send me a PM to swap Raven and DP's power. I took it as a do it now, (send a PM to ravenvii and DP), but then seeing that Rick really was waiting to the answer, send him a PM to confirm it was now and not after. he wanted it to be after the answer.

With all the vote modifying powers, it's hard to know when a power will change something. I did majority locked QoS because Plutonius already votes, thus I understood he will not used his power. But maybe it was a mistake.

I did struggled behind the scene and those mishap did gives some break to the wolf.

I will run another game, with less story telling tho. It's hard to change the story. (I had no WW kill 10 minutes before deadline on the first day, so already constructed another story for the night)

you did great.
re: guard and initial set up, as i already said, it is hard to gauge the relative strengths before hand.

for the swap, you already know my point of view and i think it should have been left as a 'now' event, since that is what it is, although i understand your perspective.

the rest are just minor things with no effect on the game.

the breaks the wolves got were just game breaks, not something you did or could have done anything about.

 

[twietee]

even the way it was used in this game, which was extremely effective, was so because it apparently somehow 'cleared' ravenvii in the eyes of the village. but that was a mistake by the village (which likely will not be made again), not an intrinsic extra strength of the wolves role.

But how do you want to check on all that?

I mentioned it multiple times how strange it is that ravenvii came out so late, right after he outed himself too. he just ignored it: is he automatically a baddie that way? With such a small pool you can check out (=lynch) just so many players. Tomorrow has as many posts as Melrose has: should we vote him off because of that? Of course it's textbook baddy to fly under the radar but it would've been a crazy thing for us to do to vote for Tomorrow.

I do agree though that a WW being the Oracle is a double edged sword and not overpowered per se. Also, we did suspect raven rather soon I'd think. Too late, but still.

I'm not bitter btw.

 

[Sythas]

I'm not against the idea of a fail transfert for the Village exclusive and core, if it goes to a WW, but in no way the Swapper should know the information.

But then again, I don't think the role or distribution was too bad, just really well played for the Wolfs part and I think it's been a couple of games since the WW won..

 

[Melrose]

I want in on the next one.

Oh hells yeah.

Edit, after reading the thread: I actually didn't sign up for the game. It was a miscommunication. *wags finger at Tweetee*

 

[twietee]

Every game people (especially you) think I'm a WW. That's why the WW never bother killing me at night .

You, good sir, wanted to tell me that raven is clean the very last minute.

I find it amusing that you thought me a WW as much as I did you until the very last second.
Why did you say that abou tthe collapser though, that really bugged me!

 

[chrmjenkins]

Yes, me being French mostly (Beside here, I almost don't write in english ) did not help, hehe.

No worries - glad we can keep you in practice

Regarding night's watch - the morpher has the potential to form one, but it's not very probable. That could change my making it a core role, which would strengthen the village a lot IMO. The village either gets a role they deem critical that's not guaranteed or that role has the bonus of having a confidant.

 

[twietee]

Regarding night's watch - the morpher has the potential to form one, but it's not very probable. That could change my making it a core role, which would strengthen the village a lot IMO. The village either gets a role they deem critical that's not guaranteed or that role has the bonus of having a confidant.

Good idea re Morpher. Downside is that it could lead to a potential and additional infection, but still interesting. Good idea.

I was wondering if the necromancer should become villager exclusive. Also wondering if the amplifier could double the infection-action? If so that'd be too powerful to be wolfie-available.

Let's bear in mind that with only 10-12 villagers not every powerful role will get assigned anyway. Also the less powerful roles, say the collapser , become quite strong in the hands of a WW anyway.

 

[chrmjenkins]

Good idea re Morpher. Downside is that it could lead to a potential and additional infection, but still interesting. Good idea.

I was wondering if the necromancer should become villager exclusive. Also wondering if the amplifier could double the infection-action? If so that'd be too powerful to be wolfie-available.

Let's bear in mind that with only 10-12 villagers not every powerful role will get assigned anyway. Also the less powerful roles, say the collapser , become quite strong in the hands of a WW anyway.

If they are worried about infection, they could select from the village exclusive. Then it's only a worry if that person has become directly infected by the wolves already.

 

[twietee]

If they are worried about infection, they could select from the village exclusive. Then it's only a worry if that person has become directly infected by the wolves already.

True. I was less worried about the Morpher him-/herself but the villagers in general. If it's up to the Morpher the role poses a threat of generating up to 4 ww - which may be cool if we're more players but is too much for our player count imo.

 

[chrmjenkins]

True. I was less worried about the Morpher him-/herself but the villagers in general. If it's up to the Morpher the role poses a threat of generating up to 4 ww - which may be cool if we're more players but is too much for our player count imo.

Always choose hunter. That's probably the hardest one for the wolves to use to their advantage, and a successful hunter kill is somewhat rare.

 

[twietee]

Always choose hunter. That's probably the hardest one for the wolves to use to their advantage, and a successful hunter kill is somewhat rare.

Maybe I'm over-complicating things, but I don't really have a problem with being a Morpher myself. It's just that if it's 'possible' that the Morpher becomes a WW (because I can't possibly know what role s/he asked for) it should also be taken into account for to some degree which makes it even more complicated, not just complex. Edit: and because it'd be a core role it would be more prevalent since the role is definitely in play.

Btw, what would you say re amplifier doubling the infection-action? Is it possible? Is it still one infection, but double as powerful (hence overriding possible protection)?

But whatever, crossing fingers that annother game will be announced on Monday.

 

[Queen of Spades]

This was an....interesting game.

At the end there, I was wondering why I wasn't zapped by the Hunter the moment I was outed!

We have to play another one soon now that we have some of the rust off.

I also think it's hysterical that Rick suspects both me and QOS of being a WW in Every. Single. Game.

When I voted for Koodauw, I was a villager so there was no intent there! Sometimes a broken clock is wrong twice a day!

You're a huge douche lord.

And yeah, I can pretty much guarantee that rick will say I'm suspicious in every game.

That was rather stupid. I blame myself for locking it, although I don't think we would have decided any other way. Sorry QoS.

I know we tweak everything to hell constantly, but I wonder if the locking aspect can't be tweaked. It was mega late/buttcrack early on the West Coast when that all went down, and things would have swayed if I could have spoken up. Just a thought, as time zone handicap is lame.

 

[Don't panic]

Always choose hunter. That's probably the hardest one for the wolves to use to their advantage, and a successful hunter kill is somewhat rare.

but that would basically be equivalent of making the hunter a core role, with the possibility of networking. might be too much.
the risk with tinkering after a resounding victory on one side is always overcompensation on the other side

how about the NW being just an additional village power given to two random non-core villagers. Morpher stays as it is, so there are the (low) possibilities of two separate networks or a one with 3 people

 

[chrmjenkins]

but that would basically be equivalent of making the hunter a core role, with the possibility of networking. might be too much.
the risk with tinkering after a resounding victory on one side is always overcompensation on the other side

how about the NW being just an additional village power given to two random non-core villagers. Morpher stays as it is, so there are the (low) possibilities of two separate networks or a one with 3 people

It was a core rule before, and the NW was guaranteed before, whereas now it's just a possibility. Doesn't seem like over-correction to me.

I know we tweak everything to hell constantly, but I wonder if the locking aspect can't be tweaked. It was mega late/buttcrack early on the West Coast when that all went down, and things would have swayed if I could have spoken up. Just a thought, as time zone handicap is lame.

That's why a west coast GM usually works out so well. Even our European friends are usually awake for morning deadlines.

 

[Don't panic]

It was a core rule before, and the NW was guaranteed before, whereas now it's just a possibility. Doesn't seem like over-correction to me.

yes, but before it was one of only a few specials in the village, now Everyone Is Special™.

 

[Don't panic]

Good idea re Morpher. Downside is that it could lead to a potential and additional infection, but still interesting. Good idea.

I was wondering if the necromancer should become villager exclusive. Also wondering if the amplifier could double the infection-action? If so that'd be too powerful to be wolfie-available.

Let's bear in mind that with only 10-12 villagers not every powerful role will get assigned anyway. Also the less powerful roles, say the collapser , become quite strong in the hands of a WW anyway.

the amplifier cannot double the infection, but it could double the other ability of the alpha.

i think necromancer should stay in the general pool.
i would be hesitant to make too many changes at the same time. the only way to fine tune the balance is play test more.
when i originally used this format in the mistborn game (although it has now evolved) i did a number of random test-runs and in general the pretend-teams appeared fairly balanced, with only occasionally a deadly combo on either side.
remember that there are a lot of good roles and the village have access to more of them than the wolves.

what we could do is put a (limited) number of constraint, to avoid too much of a deadly combination 9for example, identify the 'top' abilities and stipulate that no side can have more than a certain number of them. this is done behind the scenes by the GG at the beginning. however, the 'rules' of it should be known, so people can use them for deductions.