Xbox 360 - Backwards Compatible

[orangedv]

Microsoft's response to the PS3 specs;

Apologies if this is covered elsewhere;

This is fairly detailed

Microsoft compares 360 specs with PS3 specs

What do you guys make of this?

Just to get you going, here is the opening salvo;

Now that the Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3 specifications have been announced, it is possible to do a real world performance comparison of the two systems.

There are three critical performance aspects of a console:
Central Processing Unit (CPU) performance.
The Xbox 360 CPU architecture has three times the general purpose processing power of the Cell.
Graphics Processing Unit (GPU) performance
The Xbox 360 GPU design is more flexible and it has more processing power than the PS3 GPU.
Memory System Bandwidth
The memory system bandwidth in Xbox 360 exceeds the PS3's by five times.

 

[Bonte]

How can you say that? This thing is using stripped down G5's and a next gen graphics card (a $200 next gen graphics card should give performance like $500 current gen, throw in bulk discount...), I doubt it will cost $1000. People are taking Microsoft's hype at face value.

Apple sells tons of computers but those G5 chips aren't getting cheap, nor will it be for MS. They plan on selling 3 mil boxes in the dec quarter but with a loss of about 500$/machine its going to take ages to get out of the red. Wait and see, it all depends on the PS3 price of course.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/...

i'm going to buy one and don't play games on it

 

[savar]

How about the XBox 360 compiles the game on first launch of an old XBox title, instead of having the general consumer do the task of searching for and downloading a re-compiled game? Seems like an offal waste of time and money to have to send out the millions of copies of re-compiled games. Perhaps make it manditory to buy the HD in order to play backwards compatible games. It could be a patch of sorts.

I've always wondered why this kind of emulation isn't possible. Instead of translating instructions on the fly, why not translate an entire application or library all at once? Endianess is a problem, perhaps, but PPCs have been built with psuedo-little-endian modes.

Can somebody explain in more detail why it can't be done?

 

[daveL]

Apple sells tons of computers but those G5 chips aren't getting cheap, nor will it be for MS. They plan on selling 3 mil boxes in the dec quarter but with a loss of about 500$/machine its going to take ages to get out of the red. Wait and see, it all depends on the PS3 price of course.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/...

i'm going to buy one and don't play games on it

So let's start a campaign to get as many people as possible to buy xbox 360 and bankrupt M$!

 

[AidenShaw]

good idea - so good that it's already been done

I've always wondered why this kind of emulation isn't possible. Instead of translating instructions on the fly, why not translate an entire application or library all at once? Endianess is a problem, perhaps, but PPCs have been built with psuedo-little-endian modes.

Can somebody explain in more detail why it can't be done?

It has been done.

Digital built a subsystem called FX!32 for Windows NT on Alpha.

When you ran an Intel x86 application, it would emulate the application, and save a profile of what code paths you used. Upon exiting the x86 application, it would translate and optimize those codepaths into a native Alpha NT DLL. One could even call it a "re-compile", since the x86 code was converted to compiler intermediate language and run through the back-end of an optimizing compiler.

The next time you ran the app, FX!32 would run the native code section from the DLL rather than emulate. As you hit new code, it would emulate and profile those - and then optimize later.

Before too long, most of the code that you used had been converted to optimized native code.

See Digital's FX!32 is the key to running Win32 software on Alpha/Windows NT or Yahoo! for "Alpha NT FX!32".

ps: And for the sharp guy a few back who talked about branching code, FX!32 optimized at the basic block level - preserving the semantics of spaghetti code.

pps: And for the rumours that one guy says "emulate" and another guy says "re-compile" - if Microsoft is using something like FX!32 *both* rumours would be true! Since FX!32 is already built to emulate and translate Win32 (NT/2K/XP/2K3) code, all you need is to replace the Alpha compiler backend with a PPC compiler backend and you'd be all set. (And the hard drive could hold the optimized DLLs for the games that you've run.)

 

[Jmac87]

I Like It

 

[nsjoker]

to those wondering if nintendo will let you download NES, SNES, and N64 games for free... the answer is no.

 

[Eric_Z]

@orangedv

# The Xbox 360 CPU architecture has three times the general purpose processing power of the Cell.

No it doesn't, it's got three PPE'esque core versus one for the Cell wich is != x3 the preformance, aspecially as things like mem bandwidth, cashe and latencies are different.

Not that it matters though, a gaming console isn't a general purpose device. If that was the case all the companies would have been using Athlons or similar. The preformance of a gameing consloe isn't awfully dependant on general purpose code, it is nice though to have powerfull SIMD units to do physic calculations and help keep the GPU fed. Something that the PS3 clearly outshines the Xbox360 at.

# The Xbox 360 GPU design is more flexible and it has more processing power than the PS3 GPU.

We allmost don't know anything about the PS3 GPU, "we" here includes Microsoft.

There are some areas that they are obviously wrong in though. The GPU in the PS3 will do more shaders (50%) per clock and clocks 10% higher for example. Then there is the retardo bench with the Tflops, where the GPU in the PS3 outshines the one in the Xbox360.

Then there are other issues like 128bit coulour depth and programmabillity, wich we'll have to wait and see to find out which is best, wich has/hasn't got feature "x" and so on.


# The memory system bandwidth in Xbox 360 exceeds the PS3's by five times.

Link

Scroll down to Vaan's post

 

[bishopdante]

Emulation not a problem

Just imagine running VPC on a G5 twin 2.5GHz machine, and then compare the performance to a 733MHz P3. I suspect that the G5 might just kick it's little bottom. And the XBox 360 is even tougher in terms of power.

PS: Microsoft have a habit of making deliberately shoddy products for Apple. Eg: Word 98 takes about 3 or 4 minutes to create a new, blank document. On a 1.2 GHz twin processor G4. Suspect.

PPS: Did you know that Bill Gates at one time worked for Apple? The BASIC programming language played such a huge role in the success of the Apple II that Steve Jobs encouraged Bill Gates in 1982 to make a version of BASIC for the yet-to-be-released Macintosh. Gates was a little too anxious to release Microsoft BASIC in time for it to ship at the time of the introduction of the Mac, and therefore it was a really bad implementation. Don Denman was also creating a version of BASIC for Apple called MacBASIC which even in beta releases was much better than Microsoft's product. Gates knew their version was much better, so when it came time to renew Apple's license for Applesoft BASIC, Gates said he would only renew it if Apple killed the MacBASIC project. The Apple II could not live without Applesoft BASIC, and Apple could not live without the Apple II which was bringing in the majority of Apple's profits, so they killed the project. The Apple II became one of the most successful machines in computing history, and Microsoft BASIC was eventually discontinued in disgrace. Bill Gates later goes on to say that this was "one of the stupidest deals I have ever done".

You see! He's dodgy!

 

[swissmann]

The update to the rumor seems to squash the idea of good emulation. This is a bummer to me. I would really like to see Virtual PC be a lot faster than it is.

 

[bit density]

I've always wondered why this kind of emulation isn't possible. Instead of translating instructions on the fly, why not translate an entire application or library all at once? Endianess is a problem, perhaps, but PPCs have been built with psuedo-little-endian modes.

Can somebody explain in more detail why it can't be done?

Anything can be done. The question is, who pays for it? The fact is, there are very few games that NEED to be backwards compatible. Having the Xbox be on-line by default, and having a 20 Gig harddrive by default makes for a reasonably elegant solution of shipping with the most popular games by default on the hard drive, and the rest of the important ones to be transferred on demand.

The ones on the hard drive will make no-noticeable difference for the owner of the old game, the ones that have to be downloaded will be pretty small. The smallest part of a game is the code. New customers of old games will have disks that contain *both* the xbox, and xbox 360 version of the game, avoiding the download. The graphics, logic, and scripts live on the original disk.

The amount of effort to get emulation *right* in this case is a MUCH larger task than getting the few games that need to be working well, working well.

 

[bit density]

PS: Microsoft have a habit of making deliberately shoddy products for Apple. Eg: Word 98 takes about 3 or 4 minutes to create a new, blank document. On a 1.2 GHz twin processor G4. Suspect.

This was NOT an intentional making of shoddy product.

This is actually a kinda proof that emulation can suck in ways that you don't expect. Around the time of word 98 the popular concept that the major software houses were trying to do, was to create cross platform frameworks. So that you only had to write the code once. It turns out that this just makes bad code on all platforms, and has been the thorn in the Java's side from day one.

Microsoft abandoned cross-platform frameworks and now make code specifically for the Mac. And the Office suite is one of the largest and best coded products for the Mac often ahead of the Window's version. Love or Hate Microsoft.

 

[bit density]

Microsoft compares 360 specs with PS3 specs

What do you guys make of this?

It probably doesn't matter, unless they make something like a chess program for the platforms. (And I actually hope someone does...)


MOST games will be cross platform and will look and play exactly the same on each platform.


The question is going to be the "exclusives" and how important they are going to be.

Microsoft's major advantage appears to be Halo 2, the Doom3 engine, and the Direct X API.

It is flat out going to be easier for developers to create better exclusives for Microsoft than Sony out of the gate.

Sony developers will have a bit more difficult time, as they will either have to program to the PS2 (which they will do to start) with better graphics, or learn how to better utilize the machine, which they will but will not show up until second generation games.

This will come down to resource utilization, which comes down to potential Audience size and Market Share. The Doom 3 engine is ready to go for the platform for whoever wants to pony up the cash, and the engine is VERY sweet. The Halo 3 engine will probably be very nice as well and create competition between engine vendors...

Back to Chess.

The consoles are likely going to be *the* best pieces machinery available to chess program manufacturers. As they currently stand they will massively kick the ass out of any comparably priced PC and possibly any AVAILABLE PC. 1 Tflop and 2 Tflops are NOTHING to sneeze at.

If they do start creating chess monsters for the consoles, there *will* be a war of sorts, and I think that Sony will have to win here. And because Sony will have to win here, I think Sony will put some money into it. But at the same time, the best programs are written for the Windows, so we may find that the "unfundeds" may win the early rounds for the Xbox. I think this will be a fun war to watch...

 

[Mac-Xpert]

Microsoft abandoned cross-platform frameworks and now make code specifically for the Mac. And the Office suite is one of the largest and best coded products for the Mac often ahead of the Window's version. Love or Hate Microsoft.

Haha, you where kidding right?
If you run Word 98 or 2001 on OS 9 or even in Classic its Much faster than Word X. And the 2004 version is even worse!.

So much for great coding

 

[bit density]

Haha, you where kidding right?
If you run Word 98 or 2001 on OS 9 or even in Classic its Much faster than Word X. And the 2004 version is even worse!.

So much for great coding

Hmmm... I do not have this problem at all with word. But you do know to turn off auto-word count which *is* a system hog, right?

Cheers

 

[ECLombardo]

xbox and mac - what the hell??

What's going on? First I hear that microsoft's xbox won't be using intel chips, but using a powerpc instead, then I hear that apple is considering using intel chips (considering again, since this has been a rumor before).

Feels like we're living in an alternate universe. Could there be something deeper going on between microsoft and apple that I hadn't really taken notice of before (or maybe I have, only I've chosen not to pay attention to it??) It just seems to me that this criss-crossing of technology is a pretty strange thing, given that apple was always so proprietory before and kept their technology to themselves.

I don't give a rats ass about xbox. In the end, it's a gaming machine. What I am worried about, however, is how this may affect the mac later on. I'm a power user and a designer - my work relies heavily on my mac, I couldn't dream of using a pc. I hope that apple doesn't forget what it's about, and who their customer base is. I hope they don't lose sight of what's most important.

 

[Mac-Xpert]

Hmmm... I do not have this problem at all with word. But you do know to turn off auto-word count which *is* a system hog, right?

Cheers

Thanks for the tip, I didn't know that. It does seem some faster now, although I'm sure I never turned it off in 98 or 2001, apparently it doesn't affect the performance quite as bad in those versions.

P.s. Sorry for being off topic.

 

[orangedv]

What's going on? First I hear that microsoft's xbox won't be using intel chips, but using a powerpc instead, then I hear that apple is considering using intel chips (considering again, since this has been a rumor before).

Feels like we're living in an alternate universe. Could there be something deeper going on between microsoft and apple that I hadn't really taken notice of before (or maybe I have, only I've chosen not to pay attention to it??) It just seems to me that this criss-crossing of technology is a pretty strange thing, given that apple was always so proprietory before and kept their technology to themselves.

I don't give a rats ass about xbox. In the end, it's a gaming machine. What I am worried about, however, is how this may affect the mac later on. I'm a power user and a designer - my work relies heavily on my mac, I couldn't dream of using a pc. I hope that apple doesn't forget what it's about, and who their customer base is. I hope they don't lose sight of what's most important.

Well I think the xbox is very relavant now. The current xbox 360 is 2 very fast powermacs joined at the hip. This power will be in your living room for a few hundred, not multi thousands. It beggars the question; Will we see cheaper processing power delivered to Apple now?

 

[cubist]

The update to the rumor basically means that the backward compatibility requires recompilation - which basically means it's a lie. That stack of games in the corner, that you paid so much for, will not work on your new machine.

 

[AidenShaw]

still rumours....

The update to the rumor basically....

It's still a rumour, even if updated.

There's a lot of time between now and the release of the Xbox 360 for engineering plans to change.

Microsoft may have plans for emulation/automatic translation, but won't commit to them at this point in development due to too much risk in the schedule. The differing stories that are coming out could easily be due to people with different views of the development and marketing processes.

Come November, we'll know the true story.... 'til then, hold off on calling people "liars"!

Remember when the "makeup mirror" iMac was introduced, and Apple explained why nobody would want the computer behind the flat panel display ("the CD won't work vertically", or some such nonsense)?

 

[bit density]

The update to the rumor basically means that the backward compatibility requires recompilation - which basically means it's a lie. That stack of games in the corner, that you paid so much for, will not work on your new machine.

???!?!
Ok, when I put in my faithful xbox game, and it "works" on the new machine (but lets say the binary shipped on the harddrive), does that count? Surely the picture your painting, the useless games in the corner, is the lie.

The fact is, that most of the important games, which will matter to most of the customers, will in fact "work".

The ones that won't will be the ones whose market share was too small (cuz the game sucked, usually), or had some custom hardware associated with it. And for those, there will be the EXISTING xbox.

And shortly after the new xbox comes out, for NEW customers of good xbox games, when they go to the store to buy thier copy of the game, it will have both binaries on it.

So chill dude, just because they are not doing in a way that you expect, or want, hardly makes it a lie, and more importantly hardly makes that stack of games worthless.

 

[Symtex]

???!?!
Ok, when I put in my faithful xbox game, and it "works" on the new machine (but lets say the binary shipped on the harddrive), does that count? Surely the picture your painting, the useless games in the corner, is the lie.

The fact is, that most of the important games, which will matter to most of the customers, will in fact "work".

The ones that won't will be the ones whose market share was too small (cuz the game sucked, usually), or had some custom hardware associated with it. And for those, there will be the EXISTING xbox.

And shortly after the new xbox comes out, for NEW customers of good xbox games, when they go to the store to buy thier copy of the game, it will have both binaries on it.

So chill dude, just because they are not doing in a way that you expect, or want, hardly makes it a lie, and more importantly hardly makes that stack of games worthless.

Will you stop already with the binairies. ITS NOT TRUE. Microsoft has officially stated that xbox game will NOT NEED TO BE RECOMPILE. period.

They have say "top xbox games" because they don't want to promise something they can't deliver : all xbox games. You can bet that game likes Forza Motorsport, Halo and Ninja Gaiden will work out of the box.