Xeon vs i7?

[adamkun]

Wouldn't it be even better if everyone just ripped off OS X and ran it on their own hardware, putting Apple out of business?

Awesome man.

This is already a reality

Check out the following piece of hardware available for PC Based motherboards looking for running multiplatform software Natively
http://www.efi-x.com

At the end of the day the biggest difference between Mac and PC Is the operating GUI
i7 or eight core platforms are the same for all intense purpopses there is Absolutely no software available built for more than 2-4 core processors at this point in time.

Mac Users - congratulations you have a piece of Hardware that is exceptionally designed althought you've had to pay for the privelege or taken a small mortgage you house to get one.

Pc Users - don't worry i7 is already available for newer x58 MB's the next level will be server boards running dual socket 1366 processors shortly as displayed at the CeBIT show and then potentially you can play with 16 cores...?? (at the end of the day you simply have the ability to upgrade at a more competitive price point)


For hardware manufacturers it's becoming a never ending contest with continuously moving goal posts @ six month intervals between Mac + PC. In reality there are no winners just reasons to upgrade and pay more money for the B side of what you already have? Seriously if OSX was really Gods choice of OS then why invent Boot Camp - that being said it's a damn attractive OS and doesn't crash at the drop of a hat. With Mac moving to intel based processors the difference between the two is diminshing daily with the same Chips, Graphic Cards and other hardware being utilized by both~!

PC users, running one of these Efi-x bpu's and you have the same option as a Mac in reverse = PC to OSX or Linux natively (it's the opposite of OSX to Boot Camp for Mac Users)

Before people start claiming this piece of hardware is a hack, take a step back and look - its a real physical component. How do i know - actually have all of the following at home, the fact is that motherboards coming out shortly will be able to run both BIOS and UEFI platforms on the same MB is an upcoming reality - MSI as an example Folks. . .

Apple Imac 2.0g 2gb ram OSX 10.5
PC Q6600 core, 4gb ram, 4.5TB
EFI-X BPU (@$200 best money ever spent)

The way this is topic seems to be going back and forth is getting a bit long in the tooth - hardware comparisons are like talking about the Sony walkman or 8 track in its heyday while everyone else is watching Blueray or DVD time marches on as we spend it arguing. lets use both OS and move on to something more exciting~? It's ultimately as frustrating as buying the first memory stick from Sony then finding it didn't fit any other device that you had duh..

Extremists = Make the change and buy either unit - for a Mac POV(bootcamp) or PC POV (use efix) become enlighted and enjoy the features of both at the same time

your choice of hardware is up to you, but in the long run it will be more or less the same won't it??

 

[Wotan31]

If all that separates them is ECC, shouldn't i7 be faster because the ECC slows the computer down as it checks for errors.

Please do tell - how exactly does ECC "slow the computer down" as it "checks for errors"? lol.

ECC has no impact whatsoever on performance. None. Zero. It's an extra bit on the memory bus that's read by the chipset.

Registered memory has a slight performance hit. It has nothing to do with ECC. Registered memory will have the same throughput as non-registered memory, but it will have just a tiny bit higher latency.

That tiny difference in latency can barely be identified in synthetic benchmarks. Not you or anyone else on this planet will be able to detect the difference when running your application / game / whatever it is you use your computer for.

 

[jmpage2]

This is already a reality

Check out the following piece of hardware available for PC Based motherboards looking for running multiplatform software Natively
http://www.efi-x.com

At the end of the day the biggest difference between Mac and PC Is the operating GUI
i7 or eight core platforms are the same for all intense purpopses there is Absolutely no software available built for more than 2-4 core processors at this point in time.

Mac Users - congratulations you have a piece of Hardware that is exceptionally designed althought you've had to pay for the privelege or taken a small mortgage you house to get one.

Pc Users - don't worry i7 is already available for newer x58 MB's the next level will be server boards running dual socket 1366 processors shortly as displayed at the CeBIT show and then potentially you can play with 16 cores...?? (at the end of the day you simply have the ability to upgrade at a more competitive price point)


For hardware manufacturers it's becoming a never ending contest with continuously moving goal posts @ six month intervals between Mac + PC. In reality there are no winners just reasons to upgrade and pay more money for the B side of what you already have? Seriously if OSX was really Gods choice of OS then why invent Boot Camp - that being said it's a damn attractive OS and doesn't crash at the drop of a hat. With Mac moving to intel based processors the difference between the two is diminshing daily with the same Chips, Graphic Cards and other hardware being utilized by both~!

PC users, running one of these Efi-x bpu's and you have the same option as a Mac in reverse = PC to OSX or Linux natively (it's the opposite of OSX to Boot Camp for Mac Users)

Before people start claiming this piece of hardware is a hack, take a step back and look - its a real physical component. How do i know - actually have all of the following at home, the fact is that motherboards coming out shortly will be able to run both BIOS and UEFI platforms on the same MB is an upcoming reality - MSI as an example Folks. . .

Apple Imac 2.0g 2gb ram OSX 10.5
PC Q6600 core, 4gb ram, 4.5TB
EFI-X BPU (@$200 best money ever spent)

The way this is topic seems to be going back and forth is getting a bit long in the tooth - hardware comparisons are like talking about the Sony walkman or 8 track in its heyday while everyone else is watching Blueray or DVD time marches on as we spend it arguing. lets use both OS and move on to something more exciting~? It's ultimately as frustrating as buying the first memory stick from Sony then finding it didn't fit any other device that you had duh..

Extremists = Make the change and buy either unit - for a Mac POV(bootcamp) or PC POV (use efix) become enlighted and enjoy the features of both at the same time

your choice of hardware is up to you, but in the long run it will be more or less the same won't it??

Not necessarily. All it takes is a new OS update, etc, and your Hack can't be upgraded, or a driver or EFI update renders things unworkable.

A hack is fine for someone who views building and running the machine as a hobby and is willing to put up with driver/software issues, etc, that might render the machine unusable for a while.

For anyone who counts on the PC for production or other work type activities it's totally foolish to save some coin and risk such things happening.

 

[duck apple]

Almost all personal computer users game. Everyone, raise your hand if you haven't played any games at all on a personal computer in the last 12 months...

One up!
I never played a PC game in my 25 years of computing life (my first Mac is Mac Mini 2007). I did played one or two Apple games on Apple II clone.

 

[Tesselator]

Wow! Just WOW!

Go download Quake Live. It's free. Then you'll have something to tell your grandchildren.

 

[duck apple]

Wow! Just WOW!

Go download Quake Live. It's free. Then you'll have something to tell your grandchildren.

But I have Nintendo consoles of generations to play with; the life is short.

 

[Tesselator]

But I have Nintendo consoles of generations to play with; the life is short.

Quake on a console?

That's like having freedom in jail!

 

[nateDEEZY]

Not necessarily. All it takes is a new OS update, etc, and your Hack can't be upgraded, or a driver or EFI update renders things unworkable.

A hack is fine for someone who views building and running the machine as a hobby and is willing to put up with driver/software issues, etc, that might render the machine unusable for a while.

For anyone who counts on the PC for production or other work type activities it's totally foolish to save some coin and risk such things happening.

Anyone who is serious about production, doesn't click update the second it pops up. For example, the IT department at the company I work for waits months before pushing an update through the rest of the company.

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

 

[nanofrog]

Anyone who is serious about production, doesn't click update the second it pops up. For example, the IT department at the company I work for waits months before pushing an update through the rest of the company.

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

It can take that long to properly test it first. Before implementing it company wide, and causing all kinds of problems.

 

[awulf]

I don't agree with the whole Mac Pro is a luxury car and the Hackintosh is made out of parts from the junk yard. There are decent minimalistic PC cases out there from Antec an Lian Li as posted earlier. You can get quality hardware components, the X58 chip set motherboards aren't exactly and bargain basement, neither is the i7.

Oh and check out i7 vs Mac Pros with CineBench 10: https://forums.macrumors.com/posts/7287121/

What would be really good if a motherboard manufacturer would make like an OS X edition motherboard, where EFI is built in, with components that are known to work with OS X straight out of the box. Would be 100% legal too, because the Mac OS X wont be included and will just state its' Mac Compatible, like in the olden days with IBM Compatible.

 

[jmpage2]

I don't agree with the whole Mac Pro is a luxury car and the Hackintosh is made out of parts from the junk yard. There are decent minimalistic PC cases out there from Antec an Lian Li as posted earlier. You can get quality hardware components, the X58 chip set motherboards aren't exactly and bargain basement, neither is the i7.

Oh and check out i7 vs Mac Pros with CineBench 10: https://forums.macrumors.com/posts/7287121/

What would be really good if a motherboard manufacturer would make like an OS X edition motherboard, where EFI is built in, with components that are known to work with OS X straight out of the box. Would be 100% legal too, because the Mac OS X wont be included and will just state its' Mac Compatible, like in the olden days with IBM Compatible.

If it were this easy in all likelihood someone would already offer it. In all likelihood Apple does have legal rights to the EFI that they develop or co-develop for use in the Pro and other companies can't legally offer it or a variant of it on their own mainboards.

 

[adrianr]

I don't agree with the whole Mac Pro is a luxury car and the Hackintosh is made out of parts from the junk yard. There are decent minimalistic PC cases out there from Antec an Lian Li as posted earlier. You can get quality hardware components, the X58 chip set motherboards aren't exactly and bargain basement, neither is the i7.

Oh and check out i7 vs Mac Pros with CineBench 10: https://forums.macrumors.com/posts/7287121/

What would be really good if a motherboard manufacturer would make like an OS X edition motherboard, where EFI is built in, with components that are known to work with OS X straight out of the box. Would be 100% legal too, because the Mac OS X wont be included and will just state its' Mac Compatible, like in the olden days with IBM Compatible.

There are certainly some severe delusions of grandeur with regards to the hardware that goes into Mac computers. You hear these phrases like "server-grade" being thrown about as if they're supposed to improve the end user desktop experience. I only had to read the first 2 pages to get a good thoroughly misinformed giggle about Xeon cpu's and their 'superiority'

 

[sneezymarble]

There are certainly some severe delusions of grandeur with regards to the hardware that goes into Mac computers. You hear these phrases like "server-grade" being thrown about as if they're supposed to improve the end user desktop experience. I only had to read the first 2 pages to get a good thoroughly misinformed giggle about Xeon cpu's and their 'superiority'

There is certainly some misunderstanding about the benefit of server/workstation parts. Specifically with respect to raw performance. However, there are some genuine benefits to server parts. Error checking for one. Error checking is not that big a deal if you'r photoshoping or doing encodes or renders that don't take days. But if you're doing something like running scientific calculations that go on for days, or doing a really long render or something, you would be pretty pissed to find that your data or final render is corrupted or the process was halted altogether because of an uncorrected error at some point in the process.

So, yeah, maybe the actual performance that we see in benchmarks or a lot of commonly used applications don't show any obvious benefit of server grade components, however, there is a legitimate advantage, and I'd say for some workloads it's a critical advantage, of server grade components. I love my Hacks. I get great value out of them. They perform wonderfully and with what I use them for they perform just as well or better than similar manufactured workstations with server parts. But, I wouldn't hesitate an instant of going with server grade components if I needed the specific sort of reliability those parts offer. Now, whether I would go about building that sort of machine myself or just buying a ready made system is another issue.

 

[nanofrog]

I don't agree with the whole Mac Pro is a luxury car and the Hackintosh is made out of parts from the junk yard. There are decent minimalistic PC cases out there from Antec an Lian Li as posted earlier. You can get quality hardware components, the X58 chip set motherboards aren't exactly and bargain basement, neither is the i7.

Oh and check out i7 vs Mac Pros with CineBench 10: https://forums.macrumors.com/posts/7287121/

What would be really good if a motherboard manufacturer would make like an OS X edition motherboard, where EFI is built in, with components that are known to work with OS X straight out of the box. Would be 100% legal too, because the Mac OS X wont be included and will just state its' Mac Compatible, like in the olden days with IBM Compatible.

I agree with the assessment that a Hackintosh can provide a lot of performance from the parts it's made, and can be quite stable. (Depending on the builder's skills). Appearance wise as well, depending on what case is used. Lian Li's aluminum cases would certainly look decent.

On the PC/Windows side, there's a utility called BurnIn that can help immensely with this. Perhaps such a utility exists for Mac, but I'd expect using the Windows version first, then hacking OS X would work.

The EFI issue is another story. Apple's implementation is proprietary, so any board maker that attempted to use it, would require Apple's permission. Otherwise, they'd be in for a legal suit, and would loose. Apple won't give it up, as they'd loose out on sales.

In general though, I'd like to see UEFI 2.1 replace BIOS. Now would be a good time. (Hint, hint, board manufacturers...)

 

[adrianr]

There is certainly some misunderstanding about the benefit of server/workstation parts. Specifically with respect to raw performance. However, there are some genuine benefits to server parts. Error checking for one. Error checking is not that big a deal if you'r photoshoping or doing encodes or renders that don't take days. But if you're doing something like running scientific calculations that go on for days, or doing a really long render or something, you would be pretty pissed to find that your data or final render is corrupted or the process was halted altogether because of an uncorrected error at some point in the process.

So, yeah, maybe the actual performance that we see in benchmarks or a lot of commonly used applications don't show any obvious benefit of server grade components, however, there is a legitimate advantage, and I'd say for some workloads it's a critical advantage, of server grade components. I love my Hacks. I get great value out of them. They perform wonderfully and with what I use them for they perform just as well or better than similar manufactured workstations with server parts. But, I wouldn't hesitate an instant of going with server grade components if I needed the specific sort of reliability those parts offer. Now, whether I would go about building that sort of machine myself or just buying a ready made system is another issue.

Oh certainly advantages to Sever components i'm not disputing that, but generally they're limited to Server environments. And in more cases than not offer only disadvantages for Desktop users (Cost being the main one that springs to mind). As you say unless you're running week long renders or mass scientific calculations (Or want to justify an 09 Mac Pro ) the integrity of desktop components will never be brought into question, and even then i'de be sceptical, especially if the system is not running overclocked. Moreover the quality of components is indisputable.. Anyone thinking they're getting products made from better materials or something is barking!

(We're just agreeing here anyway so i'l leave it at that Heh)

 

[sneezymarble]

Anyone thinking they're getting products made from better materials or something is barking!

Totally agree.

 

[nanofrog]

Moreover the quality of components is indisputable.. Anyone thinking they're getting products made from better materials or something is barking!

That statement's arguable.

If a DIY build is made of the same parts grade, it's not unreasonable to expect the system to perform on par. Desktop parts vs. server would be another story.

Basically, all vendors do, is make a DIY system, locate drivers, and test it. Once they get it working, they begin to manufacture it (reproduced in mass quantities).

Apple, BTW, doesn't make their own components either. No one really does anymore. Every thing's been outsourced. Even designs.

 

[jmpage2]

That statement's arguable.

If a DIY build is made of the same parts grade, it's not unreasonable to expect the system to perform on par. Desktop parts vs. server would be another story.

Basically, all vendors do, is make a DIY system, locate drivers, and test it. Once they get it working, they begin to manufacture it (reproduced in mass quantities).

Apple, BTW, doesn't make their own components either. No one really does anymore. Every thing's been outsourced. Even designs.

That's a gross mis-characterization of how companies like Apple, etc, do this. They might take some parts off the shelf, and for other parts, they will spec it out and get vendors to compete for a solution.

I think it's a pretty safe bet that they don't get an off the shelf motherboard, they have one specc'd out.

Likewise there's little chance that the chassis is off the shelf, in all likelihood they actually specified the design.

 

[sneezymarble]

That's a gross mis-characterization of how companies like Apple, etc, do this. They might take some parts off the shelf, and for other parts, they will spec it out and get vendors to compete for a solution.

I think it's a pretty safe bet that they don't get an off the shelf motherboard, they have one specc'd out.

Likewise there's little chance that the chassis is off the shelf, in all likelihood they actually specified the design.

I don't think there's any question that manufactures get things like motherboards spec'd to their needs. But all that usually means is getting it in a certain, sometimes proprietary, form factor with things laid out in a certain way. Generally, those motherboards are still using all the same chips that some other off the shelf board uses for things like networking, sound, graphics, and core-logic. And those are the elements that have to do with performance. The point being that the motherboards that come from companies like Apple, HP, Dell and whomever else use the same parts that just about every other motherboard uses.

 

[jjahshik32]

Of course the XEON is MUCH better.

It can do what the I7 can do and THEN SOME.

 

[sneezymarble]

Of course the XEON is MUCH better.

It can do what the I7 can do and THEN SOME.

I'm guessing the "THEN SOME" you're referring to is the 2xQPI versus 1xQPI and ECC.

 

[nanofrog]

That's a gross mis-characterization of how companies like Apple, etc, do this. They might take some parts off the shelf, and for other parts, they will spec it out and get vendors to compete for a solution.

I think it's a pretty safe bet that they don't get an off the shelf motherboard, they have one specc'd out.

Likewise there's little chance that the chassis is off the shelf, in all likelihood they actually specified the design.

I'm not saying that there may not be something custom about it. Custom specs are fairly common. It's one way one company/vendor can separate themselves from their competition.

The case and logic board certainly are. But in terms of electronic components, the logic board, and graphics cards are basically the same functionality wise. What primarily differentiates them from their PC counterparts, is Apple's firmware (proprietary implementation of EFI 1.10). The HD 4870's are apparently nothing more than ATI's reference design with the firmware changed. A larger Flash chip may have been required, but wouldn't require a new PCB, and all other parts would remain identical. Now the fact it's been customized for Apple, makes it a separate P/N than the PC variants, and not open for resale to others (unless explicit permission is granted by Apple).

The logic board has a custom layout + daughter board, but was made by Intel, and uses many of the same parts used on the Intel branded units.

Keep in mind, I'm looking at this from a systems POV. You can take a single reverence design, change not one part, and create multiple board layouts to fit varying space restrictions. Change a part here or there for budget or a change in technical requirements (i.e. chipset for PCIe lane quantities, SATA ports, NIC ports,...), and there's all kinds of "custom design" possibilities.

I don't think there's any question that manufactures get things like motherboards spec'd to their needs. But all that usually means is getting it in a certain, sometimes proprietary, form factor with things laid out in a certain way. Generally, those motherboards are still using all the same chips that some other off the shelf board uses for things like networking, sound, graphics, and core-logic. And those are the elements that have to do with performance. The point being that the motherboards that come from companies like Apple, HP, Dell and whomever else use the same parts that just about every other motherboard uses.

Exactly.

There's limits to the components available, and only so many combinations. That said, it can still make a noticeable difference in the end product, and a user/vendor chooses accordingly.

 

[Corocota]

Mac or PC

I know this might be a dumb question for all of you mac lovers, but I am still on the fence. Which is better for gaming then? mac or pc? I would like to go mac due to the level of customer satisfaction, but I am afraid that I wont be able to play games on it. People are talking about bootcamp, but I am worried that it will slow down the game. can anyone give a struggling decider some info that will help one decide?

 

[HHarm]

I know this might be a dumb question for all of you mac lovers, but I am still on the fence. Which is better for gaming then? mac or pc? I would like to go mac due to the level of customer satisfaction, but I am afraid that I wont be able to play games on it. People are talking about bootcamp, but I am worried that it will slow down the game. can anyone give a struggling decider some info that will help one decide?

Bootcamp doesn't slow down anything. It's just allows easy installation for Windows. You don't have to use it if you have separate HDs for OSX and Windows.

Simply put an Mac isn't a good gaming rig. There are very few Mac games and if you use Windows for PC games you'll have an overpriced PC with an underpowered graphics card.

That said a Mac Pro with HD4870 or GTX285 (and even the current iMacs) are perfectly good for PC gaming.

 

[Salavat23]

I know this might be a dumb question for all of you mac lovers, but I am still on the fence. Which is better for gaming then? mac or pc? I would like to go mac due to the level of customer satisfaction, but I am afraid that I wont be able to play games on it. People are talking about bootcamp, but I am worried that it will slow down the game. can anyone give a struggling decider some info that will help one decide?

If you want to play games, go with the PC. You will get a much better gaming experience for the dollar.