The first OS Apple will ever release where the hardware is giant compromise compared to what they intended it to run on. What a shame.
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xrOS: What to Expect From the Software Designed for Apple's AR/VR Headset
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HobeSoundDarryl
macrumors G5
No I haven't. My laptop is still the relatively small 16" MBpro screen... which feels highly constraining when I have to switch to it from my 40" ultra wide desktop Mac... so much so, I don't even like having to make that switch. Since I can't easily lug around a 40" UW screen for laptop purposes, I'm looking at this rumored product and imagining a way to put the 40" (or more) in a laptop bag and having it available to me anywhere (without the weight, or foldable/rollable screen tech, etc). All these demos of cheaper VR tech that works this way now talk about 100"-200" screens. WOW!
That demo just posted in #124 shows some lower resolution goggles being used with Apple hardware and the guy attempting to show what it looks like by shooting video THROUGH the glasses. Even with those limitations, it looks pretty impressive.
I extrapolate that forward to an Apple cut at the same with 4K lenses for each eye (as rumored) and it seems like it would HAVE to be better-to-much-better than that. That guy says he was impressed with a months usage. Yes, he might be a shill for that product and thus he's impressed even if he actually hated it (like the "friends of Apple" influencers who get to "review" new Apple products before they are released: guaranteed, ad-money motivated, gushing praise every time... or else). Nevertheless, I suspect that the experience will be impressive. Apple's been working on this for 6+ years and doesn't have money or talent constraints like these cheap glasses startups. A/M series PPW seems ideally suited to delivering a big step forward for this kind of product... unlike others previously leaning on less power-efficient tech. Etc.
We'll all get a sense of it in only a few days... hopefully with in-store "real" demos soon after. If it can do this ONE thing well, I'm sold. And it will apparently be able to do much more than this one, "simple(?)" thing.
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Okay. I guess what I am asking is, does this tech even exist in reality? Or is this something people create in videos to show what could eventually happen? Vaporware, so to speak. The reason why I am asking this is because I don't think the tech is there yet to have a full fledged multi virtual, or single large virtual screen experience that would mimic what we can currently do via desktops and laptops.
HobeSoundDarryl
macrumors G5
I don't know. In my imagination, anyone developing VR goggles probably develops the ability to project a screen as a first, simple(?) app. If they can't do that, I don't know what they've been working on for 6+ years.
If they can do that as a virtual TV or movie screen, can they do that as a virtual computer screen? That's not a big leap as we can already attach a Mac to a 4K TV and it will have pretty sharp resolution and be usable, so 4K for each eye seems like it should be at least as good as that. I occasionally have a reason to hook a Mac to my 4K screen and it is quite sharp, looks great, etc- even up relatively close. That 4K view is spread over 82". Compress that 4K into a size that will fit in these goggles and that should look amazingly sharp.
Can this work within some kind of headset/glasses? I've posted a few demos of others offering this already with glasses that lean on HD screens. Both demos look very impressive for this purpose but yes, they could be pure special effects and not close to that in reality. However, I'm not seeing that "way below expectations" bashing claim anywhere. Instead, I'm seeing generally positive reception from those who try that level of tech.
This Apple device allegedly steps up the resolution 2X in each direction. Apple is not pinched like these little startups, so cash or talent was not a limitation in making something good-to-great.
Thus, I lean to the very positive before getting to see what it can actually do (and I'm no fanboy at all. I post purely from a consumer perspective including putting Apple down when they are doing what I view as anti-consumer things). I'll fully grant it could be one big pile of high-priced ........, but we'll all see soon enough... probably.
If it is a big pile of nothing, I'll be quick to flip to product pessimist like the bulk of the crowd here before they even know what it is, how much it actually costs, etc. But my gut says that the big flip will be the other way (this crowd having their eyes opened to the great power of a device being able to show eyes ANYTHING in a way that looks as real as reality).
If they can do that as a virtual TV or movie screen, can they do that as a virtual computer screen? That's not a big leap as we can already attach a Mac to a 4K TV and it will have pretty sharp resolution and be usable, so 4K for each eye seems like it should be at least as good as that. I occasionally have a reason to hook a Mac to my 4K screen and it is quite sharp, looks great, etc- even up relatively close. That 4K view is spread over 82". Compress that 4K into a size that will fit in these goggles and that should look amazingly sharp.
Can this work within some kind of headset/glasses? I've posted a few demos of others offering this already with glasses that lean on HD screens. Both demos look very impressive for this purpose but yes, they could be pure special effects and not close to that in reality. However, I'm not seeing that "way below expectations" bashing claim anywhere. Instead, I'm seeing generally positive reception from those who try that level of tech.
This Apple device allegedly steps up the resolution 2X in each direction. Apple is not pinched like these little startups, so cash or talent was not a limitation in making something good-to-great.
Thus, I lean to the very positive before getting to see what it can actually do (and I'm no fanboy at all. I post purely from a consumer perspective including putting Apple down when they are doing what I view as anti-consumer things). I'll fully grant it could be one big pile of high-priced ........, but we'll all see soon enough... probably.
If it is a big pile of nothing, I'll be quick to flip to product pessimist like the bulk of the crowd here before they even know what it is, how much it actually costs, etc. But my gut says that the big flip will be the other way (this crowd having their eyes opened to the great power of a device being able to show eyes ANYTHING in a way that looks as real as reality).
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The advantage Apple has over its competitors is they have a fan base that has become non-critical and often highly defensive of the company's decisions almost without exception. You can see from the comments here that there are enough people who without any evidence at all already think the Apple XR is an amazing success. That means these same people are likely to buy it regardless of how great it is and then go online singing it's praises regardless of their true experience. That's a massive advantage that no other company on earth has and honestly does give Apple a real chance to get traction here. Even if it's terrible Apple fans will keep buying at least in the short term giving Apple unprecedented bonus time to possibly get it right.
The critical comments do have merit though. This is a product in search of a real world use and one that is going to be a tough sell to the mainstream. I'll be watching though and very curious to see if the most hardcore Apple fans really turn out for this.
The critical comments do have merit though. This is a product in search of a real world use and one that is going to be a tough sell to the mainstream. I'll be watching though and very curious to see if the most hardcore Apple fans really turn out for this.
I dont think so really.
I cant see a full computer without screen which is basically ONLY usable with the addition of the AR glasses... surely that would be crazy expensive and only really attractive to a very small subset of users.
Far more realistic is another mode of working that uses the existing laptops i.e. macbook air and you just leave it closed in clamshell mode as you would do using any external display... which is all the AR glasses would be in this use case anyway.
However, assuming that XROS if it exists is powerful enough to do its own thing.. then I can see lugging round a standard magic keyboard and taking that out for typing in the AR environment as being more realistic.
Sadly, seems like they're skating to where the puck was (Metaverse) instead of where it's going (AI).
Apple has been wildly successful in taking already successful products and taking them (mostly) to another level.
MP3 Players -> iPod
Cell Phones -> iPhone
Tablets -> iPads
TV -> Apple TV
Wireless headphones -> Airpod
Watches/Fitness Trackers -> Apple Watch
Can we say that VR headsets are truly successful products, that Apple can actually build on?
Apple has been wildly successful in taking already successful products and taking them (mostly) to another level.
MP3 Players -> iPod
Cell Phones -> iPhone
Tablets -> iPads
TV -> Apple TV
Wireless headphones -> Airpod
Watches/Fitness Trackers -> Apple Watch
Can we say that VR headsets are truly successful products, that Apple can actually build on?
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HobeSoundDarryl
macrumors G5
I see that too. That demo I offered in post #124 shows exactly that. That guy is "tossing" his iPhone and MB screen to those Glasses. We already have the ability to "throw" any Mac screen to any other screen with Airplay. So maybe it works that way: open MB, choose goggles over lid display and lid display is blank and one sees their any-size laptop screen PRIVATELY in the goggles view.
But Apple being Apple, it is not hard at all for me to envision "mo money" add-ons like a Commodore 64-like keyboard Mac for the "new kind of laptop"-minded like me.
ELSE, I'll find myself in the market to potentially buy or make one of those lid-less MBs to use in this way if the virtual screen is usable as I imagine it...
HobeSoundDarryl
macrumors G5
Possibly... but pair that pessimism with the classic: "Apple is rarely first, but they do it RIGHT."
I don't recall FB leading the way with an iPod, iPhone, iPad, Watch, Mx Macs, etc. Or maybe they did take a crack at a FB phone with the benefit of fully knowing how iPhone works???
If we are now in a world where FB has to prove brand new tech works before someone like Apple can come in with a successful clone, we're in HUGE trouble.
Virtual desktops exist now with current VR/AR and are completely usable although not great. The problem is that packing pixels into a tiny display isn't easy. Even if you have 4k displays in the headset a lot of those extra pixels will be used in your peripheral vision to give full immersion. Using all of the pixels for a virtual display would be like putting your face a couple of inches away from your laptop screen. The virtual display would have to appear farther away and therefore could only use a small fraction of the available resolution. On top of that when you move your head the virtual display would be viewed at slight angles making sharp 1:1 pixel perfect output impossible. That's not to say it won't look OK but it certainly won't be anything close to a nice OLED or high end IPS monitor.
fine, but equally apple dont make products for the sake of it... they need them to sell in volume otherwise they dont bother.
Assuming the AR set itself cannot support macOS natively.... then it will be a clamshell already existing mac. I just dont see the point in a screenless mac when the screen doesnt add much bulk to the thing anyway so taking it away seems rather pointless and not saving anything at all.
HobeSoundDarryl
macrumors G5
And I see an Apple crack at the Commodore 64 form factor much like people use laptops as both laptop and desktop with dock.
At home, link into a desktop monitor like ASD. On the road, link into goggles (or a portable screen or even a bigger iPad if Apple wanted to go there). If used in those road ways, I- speaking perhaps only for myself- wouldn't want the redundancy of having a hinged screen I'd probably NOT want to use if Goggles works as imagined.
However, we already have big iPad screens that link to a keyboard to make them laptop like. So maybe the rumors of an even bigger iPad MIGHT scratch both itches: a classic laptop screen for this hypothetical Apple (commodore) 64 or a virtual screen with Goggles using this Apple 64.
I can certainly imagine this NOT being an "accessory" on day 1. But I myself would be interested and could very well consider disconnecting lid from existing MB to get it and/or buying a broken-lid MB to get one that way until Apple would offer a dedicated one as an add-on product.
Right, and that is my point. In terms of replacing my office set up with an AR set up (which I wouldn't do if I had to wear a headset of any kind), the tech just isn't there yet and it probably won't be anytime in the near future. Not to mention the horsepower you'd need to power what would seemingly have to be 8K AR goggles.
Fair enough. To be clearer, I was using 'Metaverse' as a generic term, as opposed to Facebook's specific iteration of the concept.
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well, lets see.
I still think that Apple have your scenarios covered in that if you use the goggles at home at a desk then you already have either an iMac, Mac Mini, Mac Studio, or Mac pro - the goggles will easily via airplay become the screen.
If you are out and about then you have the MacBooks in clamshell mode.
I still dont see the need for a Commodore style computer-in-a-keyboard given that all the bases are already covered with existing products.
If XROS has a desktop style paradigm mode (kindof stage manager like I guess) then I can see a new, portable keyboard being something they might produce as an accessory to the headset a bit like we get magic keyboard folios etc for iPads... but thats as far as I see it going.
HobeSoundDarryl
macrumors G5
OK, but even then, I'd still offer the same feedback. Multiple "leading tech" players have taken cracks at smart phones with the benefit of fully knowing how iPhone functions. Remember Windows phone? Tesla?
I don't think we should dig the grave for this new Apple product only because some other players efforts at it have failed or flopped or are very niche. Apple does actually have that reputation of not being first, but getting it right. For all of the pessimism we can summon against this thing, a "think different" crowd should be able to also summon some optimism tied to "what if Apple gets it right? What are the potentials of being able to show our eyes ANYTHING that looks as real as actual reality?"
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HobeSoundDarryl
macrumors G5
In general yes.
The reason for an "Apple 64" is that many people want to "see" their keyboard while using it, which doesn't happen in clamshell mode. These are rumored to be VR/AR... which could mean virtual screen (VR) over seeing our own hands on an actual keyboard (AR).
You seem to be envisioning a virtual keyboard, where we are typing on air perhaps on top of the closed lid in clamshell mode or on a surface like a seatback tray on an airplane. That may happen too. Who knows?
It may be that there is enough power inside Goggles to be the full computer on our heads. If so, then a simple bluetooth keyboard + mouse/keyboard might scratch that (physical) keyboard itch. On the other hand, if that takes too much power to be both, maybe the computer could be built into the Apple 64 and then Goggles is simply an Airplay display from that computer.
Rumors imply battery life is a BIG issue with these Goggles. If so, shifting some horsepower (and battery) away to another device might be one way to get more use out of Goggles on a charge than keeping all those horses running within.
We'll see... or not... in a few more days.
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Dont get me wrong, i DO understand your use-case here.
However, yes, a physical keyboard is something that people would gravitate towards.... and IF the headset does not natively provide the computing power for MacOS - then I think we are far more likely to see the MacBook be tweaked to allow the screen to fold fully back behind the keyboard to enable compatibility in this way for an AR experience using the Goggles.
For sure, it somewhat defeats the object having the MacBook open to use the keyboard for bulk typing and data entry as the screen will get in the way I assume.
But again this all depends what the headset is used for an who its aimed at.
I assume that it's designed to function fully autonomously and theres no need for peripherals. Should a keyboard be desired or necessary then any bluetooth keyboard or Apple Magic keyboard should fit the bill. This is assuming that XROS has the grunt and processing power to provide an environment where a physical keyboard would be desirable.
I dont really see it being tied to MacOS in this way though - only if it can be used purely as an airplay screen to existing machines. On its own I feel its going to have far more in common with iPadOS than it will MacOS.
The screens used for each eye can go up to 5000 nits. Make that what you want. Be careful!
So then why are you here? If the comments/opinions of people critical of Apple bother you so much then why post/read comments here?
VR headsets are more successful now than Tablets were before the iPad came along. Apple has succeeded in redefining whole categories of products, which makes them pretty uniquely successful beyond even just ‘making better products’.
I’m getting good vibes about the headset, I expect to be pleasantly surprised in a weeks time. But I wonder, will it be such a different computing experience that it can’t be demo’ed but it has to be experienced?
