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"Windows servers also stay up for month after month - one doesn't apply patches for software that's disabled or not used on a server.

To the GP - if the other OSes didn't run stable for months and did not have good admin tools and ease of use, people won't be running them - Windows Server and Linux along with IBM z/OS take the most share of server OS market and OS X Server doesn't even register in IDCs Server OS data.

All I am saying is Apple is killing a nice hardware product just because they want to push an OS no one is willing to use.
 
I mean why not give people an <i>option</i> of other more mainstream OSes - there is no point in forcing OS X Server on people if it cannot work for them. (The problems aren't just performance and stability related - software availability is also a big thing.)

But why even sell the XServe if you're going to let it run anything?

I think the subset of businesses running non-Apple server environments that would want to run Apple hardware is very, very small.
 
It is there if you do a product search, just not on the main page and no link on the main page for Server products...and so on and so on and so on.

Finally found it...

What's the point of having it so hidden? It used to be right on the front page.
 
But why even sell the XServe if you're going to let it run anything?

I think the subset of businesses running non-Apple server environments that would want to run Apple hardware is very, very small.

Offering other supported OSes along with OSX Server continues to serve the existing Apple/OSX environments and opens up the gates for the huge mainstream market.

I don't see how it is beneficial for Apple to continue selling a negligible amount of Xserves when the hardware is mostly bog standard, the price is very close to other mainstream products and there is nothing 'niche' to speak of. Previously at least if you needed a PPC server platform Apple was in a unique position - that no longer applies.
 
Wow, this is a huge defeat for apple on the hardware side. The promise replacement doesn't look nearly as nice either.
 
What's the point of having it so hidden? It used to be right on the front page.
To purchase from Apple Enterprise, one used to have to basically manually place an order with a sales rep. Recently, they have been pushing enterprise clients toward company-customized versions of the Store.

Maybe they actually are starting to build an Enterprise brand as a very separate thing from their consumer channel. Just maybe.
 
And see my previous posts saying they are entirely warranted. Sure they can be done by other companies (better/cheaper? not sure.), but enterprise I.T. isn't ever happy with surprises, and Apple simply can't resist this sort of nasty surprise. It wreaks havoc with planning and budgeting.

(And yes, I've "seen" an Xserve RAID before... and worked with them along with every Xserve from the original ear-shattering G4 to the present.)

People are treating this like HD-DVD dying. I'm sure if Apple was selling hundreds of these units a week Apple wouldn't be pulling this item off the shelves.

Enterprise IT see companies come and go and product lines disappear all of the time.
 
I remember a few months ago in another thread someone said that for Apple, the money is in the hardware, but the value is in the hardware/software interaction. If Apple wants $$$, it should make good hardware. For people to actually want it and be able to do great things w/ it, make the software work great w/ the hardware. Unfortunately, Apple doesn't have the hardware. Also, the xServe RAID was WAYYYYYY behind the xServe in terms of hard drives. I don't think the RAID was ever updated other than for larger hard drives. It always used PATA drives while the xServe got SATA and then SAS hard drives. Way behind the times. Since I don't know anything about this new system, I will wait to pass judgement on it. But I'm sad that Apple isn't selling its own RAID now.
 
The promise replacement doesn't look nearly as nice either.

I can't believe all the whining about the styling of the Xserve RAID - but in the end, the styling was about the only distinguishing feature of it.

It was a cheap, limited solution for a niche market.

Apple is smart to go with a third party - compare the features of the Promise E-class and the Xserve RAID and you'll see that the Promise is a far, far better system (except for people specifically looking for a cheap, limited solution).
 
The thing that bugs me the most about this story (if it's true), is the feeling it gives you that *all* Apple of products are just a coin toss away from being discontinued. It really rocks one's faith in the company in general, when you hear of products that weren't really in trouble, disappearing without warning.

The optics on this is that Apple is prepared to chuck pretty much any product that doesn't give them a market leader position with a huge margin to boot. If they can discontinue the X-Serve Raid, then anything they make could be gone tomorrow; not because it's not making money, but because it's not making enough money or isn't the very best in it's class.

That is exceedingly unsettling.

I agree, exactly what I was thinking! Very cavalier with their loyal fan base sometimes. I am seeing more and more of this lately.
 
It isn't the price that really bothers me, its the fact that Apple seems to value secrecy above everything else, even in cases where secrecy makes about 0 sense, like here. I mean, how much would Apple have actually lost if they decided a few months ago to give enterprise users a warning, "We are transitioning away from the XServe RAIDs, for the next 3 months, or while supplies last, we will still sell the RAIDs, but are transitioning to the Promise VTrack RAID system." and sold both side by side for a few months. Instead, Apple has this culture of secrecy for secrecy's sake, and it doesn't seem to matter to them how many customers they alienate, as long as they can maintain secrecy.

That will always be the #1 reason why you will not see Apple's corporate offerings get more than a sliver of the market. After all my experiences with Apple's corporate stuff, I will never EVER recommend an Apple product to be used as a server or anything else for that matter. If they want to play games, they can play games without my money or my customer's money.

I can live with the expense, I can live with the limited selections of workstations, but I cannot live with being unable to plan out more than a week in advance because Apple might arbitrarily change something tomorrow seemingly because they just feel like it.

Another very good point!
 
I agree, exactly what I was thinking! Very cavalier with their loyal fan base sometimes. I am seeing more and more of this lately.

All of Apple's transitions are sudden - for example when one day the PowerMac had only PCI-X slots, and the next day it had only PCI Express slots. A real shock for those people with specialized PCI-X cards.

In the rest of the Intel world, systems usually have both PCI and PCIe slots, or they give you the option of PCI-X or PCIe - the transition is less jarring.
 
Very few people here have any idea what they are talking about when it comes to RAIDs. Xserve RAID was an old, way underperforming product. The new Promise RAIDs offer:

• 4Gbit fibre channel (two ports per controller)

• True active-active failover controllers, this is HUGE and is why it costs more money than Xserve RAID

• MUCH greater performance than Xserve RAID, my guess is about 3x the read and write performance per controller/LUN

• Very decent pricing when you max out a unit w/ 16 drives

• SATA AND SAS drive support!!!

This is excellent news, and if you disagree you really don't know much about this market. I have sold many dozens of Xserve RAIDs and other fibre channel RAIDs into Mac and Xsan environments, and believe me, this is GREAT news for me and my clientele.
 
I had a hard time finding it on their site a month ago like they were hiding it. I must have bought about the last one.

It is beautiful with all it's lights on but NOISY.

All enterprise server / storage are noisy, due to fans spinning on high to circulate air.
 
• True active-active failover controllers, this is HUGE and is why it costs more money than Xserve RAID

For me this is the key. Without this no one in the enterprise market will take a storage vendor seriously.
 
Must say i didn't see this coming! It's a superb bit of kit and i will be really lost when it comes to upgrading our storage next time.

I hope they release something to replace it one day.
 
I can't believe all the whining about the styling of the Xserve RAID - but in the end, the styling was about the only distinguishing feature of it.

It was a cheap, limited solution for a niche market.

Apple is smart to go with a third party - compare the features of the Promise E-class and the Xserve RAID and you'll see that the Promise is a far, far better system (except for people specifically looking for a cheap, limited solution).

The XServe RAID wasn't really all that cheap. I mean the low end one was 6000 dollars and was only equipped with 4 ATA 250 gig drives. That's not cheap, you can by unpopulated arrays with better performance for cheaper. We bought ours years ago, but there's no way I'd pick one up today.
 
I think we can summarise now.

Feature- and performance- wise we think it is a good move. IMHO Apple's expertise has never been in this kind of hardware development. The Xserve RAID was more of a cheap choice that performed okay, and looked terrific next to an Xserve. ;)
So getting a 3rd party RAID system gives Apple better hardware to sell their Xsan...

OTOH, if Apple really cared about their Xserve RAID customers and potential new costumers in this market, they could (and should have) announced their discontinuing a few months earlier, and mentioned them teaming up with Promise.
It feels slightly unprofessional to have ordered an Xserve RAID one day, and waking up the next to find out it suddenly has been discontinued.

Keeping iPhones, MacBooks Airs, iLife etc. secret is fun, cool and good marketing... but why the Xserve RAID...?
Like others have said, it does give you the feeling Apple can (and probably) will do the same in the near future.... Drop the Xserve, and let 3rd parties virtualise OS X Server on their hadware...?
I am sure many IT departments would like to know this in advance to be able to set their strategy regarding their Apple based servers...
 
Of course it was expensive compared to a four drive unit.

Not at all what I was talking about. The array was overpriced for what it provided. An unpopulated VTrak E-class is cheaper than the low-end XServe RAID. You buy low-storage modules for the E-class and you're at roughly the same cost with much more performance and options.
 
Very few people here have any idea what they are talking about when it comes to RAIDs. Xserve RAID was an old, way underperforming product. The new Promise RAIDs offer:

• 4Gbit fibre channel (two ports per controller)

• True active-active failover controllers, this is HUGE and is why it costs more money than Xserve RAID

• MUCH greater performance than Xserve RAID, my guess is about 3x the read and write performance per controller/LUN

• Very decent pricing when you max out a unit w/ 16 drives

• SATA AND SAS drive support!!!

This is excellent news, and if you disagree you really don't know much about this market. I have sold many dozens of Xserve RAIDs and other fibre channel RAIDs into Mac and Xsan environments, and believe me, this is GREAT news for me and my clientele.

Exactly.

Mac OS Server hardware and software existed before the XServe RAID and will continue to exist without the XServe RAID.

The main difference between this solution and Apple's discontinued RAID is that this one is better.

No downside. It simply means Apple didn't want to keep up with the RAID technology, which is fine by me. It says nothing about Apple's commitment to the enterprise or their server product.
 
Not at all what I was talking about. The array was overpriced for what it provided. An unpopulated VTrak E-class is cheaper than the low-end XServe RAID. You buy low-storage modules for the E-class and you're at roughly the same cost with much more performance and options.

Sorry, I misunderstood you. I also haven't tracked the price of the Xserve RAID.

In the beginning, it was a great bargain (when populated).
 
Sorry, I misunderstood you. I also haven't tracked the price of the Xserve RAID.

In the beginning, it was a great bargain (when populated).

It definitely was a great bargain, I'm still using 5 of them and probably will be for a few years yet.

On another note, it's interesting how Promise's site has slowed to a crawl since this announcement. And if Apple would get the iscsi target/initiators done for Leopard, there'd be some other nice Promise products for people who don't need the full capability of the 4Gb Fibre Channel
 
Check out Coraid with their AoE solution.

I called up Apple and got a quote for the Promise RAID unit. I got a quote through my education store, so it will be even higher if you aren't ordering for an educational institution!

The minimum amount of storage you can order with it is 8x750GB drives. The cost for this unit with about 5.4TiB of storage in the educational store is $11,999.

Great. Thanks Apple for providing a solution that is even more expensive than the already stupidly expensive XServe RAID! Looks like I'm going to have to buy the other unit I was looking at that costs $4K without drives.
 
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