You really don't need a brand-new Mac...

[Bananasaurus]

I don’t disagree, but it was another post by another person, responding to the first post, a couple of pages back who raised the Ford Pinto/Yugo analogy.

Oh, I see. Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[Makisupa Policeman]

I think you’re right, but less so since the ASi era. It wouldn’t have been necessary or economical for most to trade in or sell say their 2012 MBP for a 2018 (especially since the 2016-2019 MBPs were overpriced trash), but I think it makes sense to at least make the jump to an M1 Air if you’re still on a 5-7 year old Intel machine. The M1 Air is all the power 95% of consumer level Apple users will ever need, and it can be had very cheaply right now.

 

[sunapple]

I'm guessing these statements are just specific to laptops?

I'm typing this on a 2009 MacPro 4,1 (5,1) and this Mac and my two 2009 Mac Minis (Late and Early 2009) are my youngest Macs. I do have a 2008 MBP on Catalina, although it's used much less than my MP and my Mac Minis.

The MacPro has 32GB ram, 16TB of internal storage (3 HDDs and 1 SSD) and two video cards driving six displays. A seventh display is attached via a DisplayLink USB adapter. I can do everything I want/need and this Mac is three years younger than the 2012 example you guys are citing.

There is a 2022 M2 laptop in the house, but I don't own it (work Mac). So far, aside from using it for work I am not impressed at all with it. It has speed, but I find Ventura to be a hot mess. And I had to overcome Apple's limitation of only one external display for 13" MBPs using a DisplayLink hub. That allows my two 30" Cinema Displays to be connected to it. That took a month to figure out.

It took weeks to figure out how to get Ventura to stop trying to update the file cache for network volumes. It's an obscure thing to begin with but prevents Finder from doing anything inside a open or save dialogue box until it's updated the file list of the folder it's in. So you get to enjoy waiting 20 seconds to 1 minute before you can open, save or rename a file. My job is designing golf scorecards and yardage books. Most golf courses are 18 holes, so waiting a minute to save a Photoshop file can take up to 18 minutes off your life when doing 18 holes.

And I still haven't figured out why Photoshop likes to open files on a network share and then just sit there with a beachball before it lets you do anything to those files. Once things get going, it's all fine and great and the M2 chip has seriously sped things up compared to the old work Mac (2015 MBP).

But I am not impressed with this M2 so far.

My post was not exclusive to laptops, I would argue the same for Macs in general. The basis of my thoughts were "what if an average consumers were to buy a Mac today". Use cases browsing, email, etc. I would agree that 2009 Macs like the Mac Pro of Mini are still capable machines, but would you still buy these today or would you opt for maybe five years more recent (thinking of mentioned use cases per OP).

I suppose it comes down to how long we expect the critical parts to last before it becomes (economically) impossible to repair. Then factor in how long you want to continue to use the machine. I would probably not recommend a ten year old computer that way. A 2018 machine for example would be more expensive but it should last for years to come. And especially in the future with M-series chips, if they prove to be reliable, they would offer plenty of performance over such time.

 

[mectojic]

I suppose it comes down to how long we expect the critical parts to last before it becomes (economically) impossible to repair. Then factor in how long you want to continue to use the machine. I would probably not recommend a ten year old computer that way. A 2018 machine for example would be more expensive but it should last for years to come. And especially in the future with M-series chips, if they prove to be reliable, they would offer plenty of performance over such time.

It's not really the age of the computer that determines access to repair parts, but rather how standard/common those parts are.
One small example, it's much harder to find a new screen for a 2009 MacBook Air than a 2010 one. That's because the 2008-2009 Airs lasted 2 years, while the 2010 screen was identifical up to 2017.

Likewise, if the classic Mac Pro had used a standard power supply, it would be much easier to maintain. This is sadly not the case. Replacement PSUs are crazy expensive, so these days the standard repair procedure is to steal the PSU from another working Mac Pro. Much cheaper.

 

[phoenix155]

For me, I buy a new Mac - laptop because I’m ok the Navy and want something portable - every 5 or 6 years. I usually purchase new and higher-end because it will last longer. In the most recent case, I purchased an M1 MacBook Pro, while selling my last one for a small profit ($500 or so) and taking advantage of Apple’s 10% discount for military. I (mostly, I can’t remember what all were the Max options) maxed it out and don’t intend to purchase a new one for quite a while, probably five or six years.

I have a friend who purchased a new Windows laptop every year and she spends about $1,000. She actually chastised me, saying I had spent too much, but when we did the math, I’m spending less per year by buying this way than the way she does it. She is still going to continue her way of doing things, though. 😂

Just my two cents.

—Lex

 

[engbren]

Some of have more tolerance for Punishment. I still have MacBook from 2006/7. MBA from 2011. They are retired, I can do some basic stuff but not gonna waste my time with mundane stuff of tinkering with them.

I had two fully functioning older Macs until recently. A mid 2009 MacBook Pro and a 2010 Mac Mini. I had upgraded both with extra RAM and SSD and they ran acceptably fast enough for basic tasks. However, the screen hinge broke in the MBP, which happened after the airport wifi card was no longer recognised. It still worked otherwise but I ended up passing it on to a local collector who has the time and energy to tinker with it.
The Mac Mini unfortunately died outright at nearly the same time. It could be fixed by soldering some connectors which have come off the motherboard. I don’t have the equipment or skill for that job and so it will likely go the same route as the MBP meaning no older macs in my household.

 

[TechnoMonk]

The comparison between older cars and older computers isn't exactly the best analogy. Cars have changed a lot over the years, with improvements in safety, fuel efficiency, and performance. Computers, on the other hand, have seen big advancements in processing power, storage, and software. Comparing an old car to an old computer doesn't really take any of this into consideration and they both serve completely different functions and purposes.

The way older cars and older computers work is different. While an old car can still be used for transportation (which is its singular purpose), and if well maintained, will continue to do that simple task for decades. An old computer may struggle with new software and tasks. Modern computers need more power and capabilities to run complex programs and handle large amounts of data. So, comparing a well-maintained 2010 MacBook Pro to a 1999 Mercedes-Benz doesn't consider the limitations of older computers for today's needs.

Computers become outdated much faster than cars. New software, operating systems, and hardware requirements come out regularly, making older computers incompatible with the latest technology. Manufacturers (i.e. Apple) also stop providing support and updates for older models, which affects performance and security, whereas on older cars, especially something as popular as a Mercedes, there's no shortage of parts to replace on the car. Comparing the reliability of a well-maintained computer to a well-maintained car ignores the fact that computer technology becomes outdated quickly, leading to lower performance and compatibility.

I see where you're coming from, but the analogy falls short in several areas. The rapid advancement of technology, differences in functionality, and the speed of obsolescence (or planned obsolescence in Apple's case) make computers very different from cars. It's important to understand that relying on older computers, even if well-maintained, may not offer the same reliability and functionality as newer models. Cars can keep going forever as their sole purpose is simply to get you from point A to point B.

Don’t lose sight of Forrest for trees. OP was much more than older macs, here is OPs small portion. You don’t need latest and greatest, and assumes people are pushed to buy something, same can be applied to cars and lot more of stuff people buy.

Rantover (Well, is it a rant, or is it more expressing opinions? Anyway, wanted to out that out there because everyone is always pushed to buy the latest and the greatest all of the time, even when they maybe don't need it at all).

It’s true! I ride a 1970s touring bike in a major city, where it’s easy to get from A to B on two, nuclear-free, needs-no-oil, acoustic motorbike wheels. 🙂 In fact, I just got home from a ride clear across town, and it was productive (even if there were a few drivers who were staring down at screens and not paying mind to the moving road before and around them).

By the same token, I think that the vehicular analogy applied originally suggested the use of an obsoleted Mac model was tantamount, in 2023, to relying on a Ford Pinto or a Yugo from four or five decades ago. That wouldn’t be the case. Rather, an obsoleted early Intel Mac — say, a unibody MacBook Pro — would be like buying a well-built automotive model from at least two of those manufacturers (as Polestar is a bit too new for the analogy to apply).

Basically, to pick up a 2010 MacBook Pro, vis-à-vis, a 1999 Mercedes-Benz estate (wagon): how well it was maintained by previous owners during the interstitial years ought to hint at how reliable it will function going forward.

basically everything is a choice not a need.

 

[TechnoMonk]

For me, I buy a new Mac - laptop because I’m ok the Navy and want something portable - every 5 or 6 years. I usually purchase new and higher-end because it will last longer. In the most recent case, I purchased an M1 MacBook Pro, while selling my last one for a small profit ($500 or so) and taking advantage of Apple’s 10% discount for military. I (mostly, I can’t remember what all were the Max options) maxed it out and don’t intend to purchase a new one for quite a while, probably five or six years.

I have a friend who purchased a new Windows laptop every year and she spends about $1,000. She actually chastised me, saying I had spent too much, but when we did the math, I’m spending less per year by buying this way than the way she does it. She is still going to continue her way of doing things, though. 😂

Just my two cents.

—Lex

Yep. I do the same, 5 years of professional work. Another 3-4 years as a home server. Total cost of ownership on MBP is better than any windows laptops out there.

 

[dmr727]

I need two things - security updates, and for the machine to still 'feel' responsive. It's a subjective thing, but it can't feel slow for day to day stuff. OS bloat and the web is usually responsible for that, and typically results in a 5 year cycle for me.

I'm a vintage computer guy so I love the idea of using old stuff as a daily driver, but the ongoing battle with keeping stuff secure has forced me to largely give up many of my luddite tendencies.

 

[Rgeorge]

I'm not talking about professionals here or the people who need an upgrade for creative/business reasons, but why do the average consumers think that they always need some brand new M2 Powered Pro Max Macbook Pro for lightly surfing the web, writing emails, listening to music, light office work, and playing a few videos? You could get off with a 2012 MBP or even earlier for that, and slightly upgrade it and run a patcher/Linux on it if you wanted to. Or just download the older versions of the programs.

It would save them a lot of money. You don't need 16GB of RAM for that either if you download an optimized browser or programs. You don't need subscriptions to everything if you're a basic user, and it doesn't matter if you spill water on it. You can just replace it, or buy another one on the cheap. Or replace the part for a low price. You don't even need AppleCare for that.

I'm not telling people not to buy a new MacBook, but there are other options to consider before you make the big purchase. I am waiting a while and saving up for mine. I am thinking about the usage and the decisions, and I am going to hold off for a bit, until the price is right, and it calls for me to upgrade. It's annoying when people say a MBP 2011, or Macbook 2009/10 is obsolete because they think you can't put X software onto it, when you probably can. People just consume, and they don't think about what it is they are consuming.

/Rantover (Well, is it a rant, or is it more expressing opinions? Anyway, wanted to out that out there because everyone is always pushed to buy the latest and the greatest all of the time, even when they maybe don't need it at all).

I think it's a mix of marketing, privilege, prestige, and convenience. This is like asking why so many people buy new cars when a $10,000 USD car would more than likely suffice. They can have the latest and greatest, make payments on the car and shrug off the overall price. Not the most wise option, but it is an option nonetheless.

 

[DCBassman]

I'll dive in here as a relative noob (Apple-wise) who is rather passionate about recycling and re-using stuff.
Apple are guilty of not only making their hardware hard to repair, they make their software into a planned obsolescence program to match it. Why in the world does any OS need hardware acceleration? OK, all the OSs can use it, but only MacOS, so far as I am aware NEEDS it. Apple should be using their hardware capabilities for programs, not the OS. The job of the OS is to run the machine and then get out of the way of what the user wants to do. This seems to be the way for MacOS up to High Sierra, which, in my limited experience, will run happily on any 64-bit iIntel Mac, of almost whatever vintage. Certainly from 2008, no issues.
As my experience is with cheesegraters and iMacs, I'll comment on them only from here. Cheesegraters are, to quote Mr Jobs, 'insanely great', and if you're prepared to fiddle around a bit, can be made into machines of enourmous utility. Even just taking a stock 3,1 and running Linux on it makes for a very usable, very powerful machine. Core 2 Duo iMacs also run Linux very well, and why not? Core 2 Duo PCs and laptops can happily run Windows 11, although an SSD is probably a good idea. So who needs an i7? OK, that's just being facetious...
I agree with the OP completely, but others just like shiny new stuff. I'm lucky in that my sons give me stuff. One builds monster gaming PCs, so nice components come my way every few years. The other replaces his phone regularly, and he hands the old one on to me.
However, I am coming to the point where I must simplify this. I was using a 10-core/20-thread Xeon system as a daily driver, just for everyday tasks. It doesn't get much more overkill than that. At this point, the idea of an all-in-one hove into view, along with the realisation that Windows 11 probably will disconnect all the "unsupported" PCs at some point, probably with the death of Windows 10. So, I took a punt on an iMac, for the sheer hell of it. I was a very happy bunny to discover that I could install Linux on such a machine every bit as easily as a PC box or laptop. This is the only reason they hold my interest - they are usable beyond Apple's intentions.
My intention now is to run a 2011 iMac (yes, I will fiddle with it and upgrade it...)as my main machine, with the current 27" C2D as an independent secondary screen running High SIerra. Then I can also use it in Target Display Mode for any Windows box I might have, presuming the presence of DisplayPort.

So, to re-state: you only really NEED a new Mac/PC/phone rarely. You may WANT one much more frequently. Or, like myself and the OP, not at all...

<rambling nonsense over, honest...>

 

[unrigestered]

So, to re-sate: you only really NEED a new Mac/PC/phone rarel

bu... but what if a new color scheme is getting released?! 😱

 

[JustAnExpat]

I believe a consumer MacBook/ iMac can last for about 10 years before it stops working correctly. After 10 years, some websites, like banking websites, do not load with older browsers because of security, or websites that are heavy technology focused, like YouTube, may not load correctly without work arounds. Machines that are 20 years old (Power PCs) may have problems logging into newer Wifi networks. Machines that are 30 years old may have difficulty sharing files between them...

 

[Ifti]

I find Macs slow down over the years as you upgrade to the newer OS’s, which of course are targeting the newer platforms/hardware. Hence I no longer upgrade OS’s unless I really need to. My current M1 Max is still on Monterey and I intend to stay on Monterey for as long as I possibly can. Everything works the way I need it to, and it works perfectly well, and hence I intend to keep my current system for as long as I can.

 

[eyoungren]

My post was not exclusive to laptops, I would argue the same for Macs in general. The basis of my thoughts were "what if an average consumers were to buy a Mac today". Use cases browsing, email, etc. I would agree that 2009 Macs like the Mac Pro of Mini are still capable machines, but would you still buy these today or would you opt for maybe five years more recent (thinking of mentioned use cases per OP).

I suppose it comes down to how long we expect the critical parts to last before it becomes (economically) impossible to repair. Then factor in how long you want to continue to use the machine. I would probably not recommend a ten year old computer that way. A 2018 machine for example would be more expensive but it should last for years to come. And especially in the future with M-series chips, if they prove to be reliable, they would offer plenty of performance over such time.

For others, yes, I'd recommend newer Macs (or even PCs). That's simply because I understand that others are not me. For myself, I have always enjoyed making computers perform to my expectations. At first this was because my parents were buying the computers for me as a kid. It later became a matter of what I could afford.

I only switched completely to Intel Mac in 2020. I'm about 10-15 years behind the current model and that is consistent with where I was on PowerPC Macs.

But again, I'm not the normal consumer. Anyone in this thread really is not the normal consumer. The normal consumer is not here because they aren't in any way at all concerned about the topics we speak of here on MacRumors.

 

[mansplains]

Reminds me of a guy at my work who lectures people buying new devices but blows up hundreds of dollars every week eating out and drinking. I usually get a new phone 6-7 years, use my macs 8 years and AW 5. But I am happy for those who upgrade when they want to, what ever that makes them happy.

I had similar, lectures me about my $800 Ultra after I went a year without AW, upgrading from S3. Guy buys a new watch every year, including S8 which only added temp for women. And leases a big car simply for his dog. People gotta stay in their own lane…

 

[Lioness~]

- I always buy brand new Mac's, mostly have, and definitely these days.
- It save time to have fully operationally and faster Mac's - after the 1st year of included warranty ends I buy Apple care to them too.
- I'm a grown up woman, I do what I want with my money.
- I definitely needed my Porsche much less than my Apple stuff - but it was a he-ll of a lot of fun, but too expensive after the 1st wave of excitement. No regrets whatsoever.
I even had a some young cops driving after me once, and I thought my licence would go.
But when they came up and I asked them how fast I had driven, they just smiled and said, we don't know, we just wanted to check out the car 😁

Live is short, relatively: follow your heart, be foolish, dream crazy stuff.

I re-watched this recently, wonderful speach!

 

[eyoungren]

I had similar, lectures me about my $800 Ultra after I went a year without AW, upgrading from S3. Guy buys a new watch every year, including S8 which only added temp for women. And leases a big car simply for his dog. People gotta stay in their own lane…

This is the mentality I spoke to earlier. There are a class of people out there who believe that if you buy more than you need you are fiscally irresponsible and wasting your money. As if they get to decide that for you!

And then the hypocrisy in what some of them (as you and TechnoMonk mention) buy for themselves while deriding others for their purchases.

It's annoying. I don't need other people telling me how to spend my own money.

 

[TechnoMonk]

- I always buy brand new Mac's, mostly have, and definitely these days.
- It save time to have fully operationally and faster Mac's - after the 1st year of included warranty ends I buy Apple care to them too.
- I'm a grown up woman, I do what I want with my money.
- I definitely needed my Porsche much less than my Apple stuff - but it was a he-ll of a lot of fun, but too expensive after the 1st wave of excitement. No regrets whatsoever.
I even had a some young cops driving after me once, and I thought my licence would go.
But when they came up and I asked them how fast I had driven, they just smiled and said, we don't know, we just wanted to check out the car 😁

Live is short, relatively: follow your heart, be foolish, dream crazy stuff.

I re-watched this recently, wonderful speach!

I watch it very often. One of the best speeches and motivating videos out there.

 

[eyoungren]

I even had a some young cops driving after me once, and I thought my licence would go.
But when they came up and I asked them how fast I had driven, they just smiled and said, we don't know, we just wanted to check out the car 😁

Live is short, relatively: follow your heart, be foolish, dream crazy stuff.

I got passed by a Toyota Corolla in the carpool lane on the freeway the other day. A bit behind him was a dark blue Dodge Charger. I was doing 75 at the time.

The Charger had a few mods to it so it wasn't the base model. But I did notice the rims…and that told me it was a cop car. They always forget to upgrade rims when they buy these types of cars.

Sure enough, about 30 seconds later the Charger hit its lights and pulled the Corolla over.

The Corolla driver probably should have been driving a Porsche. 🙂

 

[Allen_Wentz]

I'm not talking about professionals here or the people who need an upgrade for creative/business reasons, but why do the average consumers think that they always need some brand new M2 Powered Pro Max Macbook Pro for lightly surfing the web, writing emails, listening to music, light office work, and playing a few videos? You could get off with a 2012 MBP or even earlier for that, and slightly upgrade it and run a patcher/Linux on it if you wanted to. Or just download the older versions of the programs.

It would save them a lot of money. You don't need 16GB of RAM for that either if you download an optimized browser or programs. You don't need subscriptions to everything if you're a basic user, and it doesn't matter if you spill water on it. You can just replace it, or buy another one on the cheap. Or replace the part for a low price. You don't even need AppleCare for that.

I'm not telling people not to buy a new MacBook, but there are other options to consider before you make the big purchase. I am waiting a while and saving up for mine. I am thinking about the usage and the decisions, and I am going to hold off for a bit, until the price is right, and it calls for me to upgrade. It's annoying when people say a MBP 2011, or Macbook 2009/10 is obsolete because they think you can't put X software onto it, when you probably can. People just consume, and they don't think about what it is they are consuming.

/Rantover (Well, is it a rant, or is it more expressing opinions? Anyway, wanted to out that out there because everyone is always pushed to buy the latest and the greatest all of the time, even when they maybe don't need it at all).

I will go against most replies in the thread and strongly disagree. The fact is that anyone using a 2012 box versus a 2023 box is very likely to notice the differences: speed, USB performance, WiFi performance, HDMI performance, compatibility among other Apple devices, etc. IMO the differences are huge.

Sure one can make a 2012 box work, but it is simply not time/cost effective. Not to mention the impact on state of mind trying to cope with old tech involves.

 

[TechnoMonk]

I will go against most replies in the thread and strongly disagree. The fact is that anyone using a 2012 box versus a 2023 box is very likely to notice the differences: speed, USB performance, WiFi performance, HDMI performance, compatibility among other Apple devices, etc. IMO the differences are huge.

Sure one can make a 2012 box work, but it is simply not time/cost effective. Not to mention the impact on state of mind trying to cope with old tech involves.

Wifi and Bluetooth, USB performance are a go for me.

 

[eyoungren]

Not to mention the impact on state of mind trying to cope with old tech involves.

I'm just going to relate my recent experience and let you decide…

2015 MacBook Pro issued to me in 2019 as my work computer. Two of my seven displays to my MacPro are 30" Cinema Displays. Easy to hook up to the 2015 MBP via a KVM and two Apple Dual-link DVI adapters. The 2015 MBP drives the two 30" Cinemas just fine.

In June 2023 my company issues me a 2022 13" M2 MacBook Pro. Immediately I discover that Apple has limited the 13" to ONE external display.

But guess what? I also gotta find a USB-C to Dual-link DVI adapter. And, oh, it's got to have HDCP off - because 30" Cinema Displays are not HDCP compliant.

That gives me ONE 30" Cinema Display. So how to work around that? A $180 dollar hub that my boss has to buy that has DisplayLink and a $35 DisplayPort to Dual-link DVI cable (again, HDCP off) that I myself bought.

BTW, both these dual link cables/adapters are only offered by Club 3D. It took a month to figure all this out and my boss is in it for $230.

So this, compared to buying two Apple dual-link adapters for a 2015 MBP and done.

 

[ArkSingularity]

Sure one can make a 2012 box work, but it is simply not time/cost effective. Not to mention the impact on state of mind trying to cope with old tech involves.

Sure, the differences noticeable, but a lot of people just have a thing for older tech. If people want to keep them around, I say let 'em.

 

[sdfox7]

Lots of replies here, but for me the new hardware purchases boil down to 3 main things: planned obsolescence, workload requirements, and the capitalist system.

The faster manufacturers drop official support, most consumers will simply buy new instead of doing mods/patchers.

The updated hardware requirements or slow performance of existing hardware will cause new purchases.

For better or worse, capitalism and social class will cause some people to buy new, because they feel insecure or left out if they don't have the latest and greatest that the Joneses have next door.

This last point helps explain why the US just hit $1 trillion in credit card debt. No one needs a new car, laptop or phone every year, and it's bad for the environment. This is not going to end well!